Apocalypse: Savior of MPQ or Gambit 2.0?

Daredevil217

So... there has been a LOT of talk surrounding Apocalypse and his mechanics. There hasn’t been this much buzz around a character in a long time (probably Kitty?).  I know it’s early and at this point we’re just theory-crafting, but I’m curious what people think based on initial impressions.

Gambit 2.0?

Apocalypse has three crazy good active abilities that cost only 7 AP each! If there is some sort of formula used to create balanced characters, it was clearly tossed out the window with Apocalypse. All three of Apocalypse’s powers can be fired after a single match-3 in said colors if you bring boosts; and each power is insane for the cost

Black will do 38k-46k damage with 4 protect tiles on the board to remove (which BRB gives passively). That’s enough to take away 75%+ health from all but Bill, Iceman, Carnage, Thanos, and Sinister. He takes 90%+ health from 20 5* characters and can straight one-shot 8 of them!

Red does a ridiculous 16k damage to the lowest health opponent for 7 AP. But with a repeater on the board, the damage is over triple that and he does over 51k!  Again... enough to one-shot almost half the characters in the tier. 

His yellow not only boosts his own ability, but also tacks ~8800 damage to any friendly powers. So those multi tap and cheap ability characters get way way better with A-Poc. 

I didn’t even mentioned the friendly heal, protect tile spam, stun immunity, ignoring enemy protect tiles, or the fact that he has the highest health and match damage in the tier by far. Apocalypse is power creep on crack. His insane damage numbers, cheap AP costs, and super high health means that you can lose half your team to a bad cascade. The cries of “nerf” and “Gambit 2.0” may be justified, given that he broke the power curve compared to every other character in his tier both on offense and defense. 

Savior of MPQ?

For anyone who thought the quick hop Thorkoye and defensive Bill/Kitty/Bish metas would never be usurped, Apoc came in with an answer to just about everything you can throw at him. His red can easily bypass the pesky -1 damage that boosted Bill protect tiles cause pretty much every other damage dealing power. His stun immunity (with a proper partner) laughs in the face of Worthy/Bishop stun teams.

The painfully slow spam/buff/stun meta is now being “cleansed” by this wrecking ball that has a counter for everything. Oh and while playing our reigning fastest team (Thorkoye) puts a huge target on your back that summons copious amounts of retals from people avoiding Bish/Bill/Kitty teams... Thorpocalylse can likely hop just as fast, hit more teams without any hiccups, and make people think twice about hitting back thanks to Poc’s presence. Finally, where most of our metas have been characters that work best with a handful of characters only, Apocalypse is arguably one of the most versatile characters in the game, working well with a TON of partners. Meaning that the meta may open up to include several Apoca-based teams!  For those who wanted a shakeup to the meta and a much faster PVP experience, Apocalypse may in fact be the savior MPQ has been looking for. True to his character, you could argue he’s here to cleanse the game. 

So what do people think? Is he broken? Is he “the answer”? Is he all of it? None of it? I’ve included a poll, but would love to hear other people’s thoughts!

DyingLegend

Apocalypse is the new old Gambit

I think the main thing apocalypse outlines is how much power creep has ruined the original 5 star group. 

They need to take a break from releasing characters for a bit, and refresh some of the original 5 stars, cause they arent even in the same league. It's safe to say old man Logan and gambit could be brought back to what they use to be. 

The best thing for a game like this is a healthy diverse meta. Is it achievable, maybe. I want to use my entire arsenal of tricks, instead of the same characters combos for eternity. 

658_2

None of the above

I hit a champed 450 Apoc/457 BRB with my 464 BRB/461 Carnage yesterday (Apoc was not boosted for Panther, and was definitely 13 covers, 5/3/5, leveled to 450, in case anybody wondering). I waxed them with ease. I boosted +2 all, and had good boards. Maybe it was a fluke, as Apoc is clearly extremely powerful and versatile, but I’m guessing that all the meta teams can do enough damage to at least beat him regularly, if not consistently. The first five or six months, Gambit was close to invincible without your own Gambit. There certainly wasn’t a team around that could blow Gambit out, like I did to Apoc/BRB.

As an aside, I noticed the guy running Apoc switched from BRB to PX as the event went on, which I thought was interesting. I also saw his score drop a few times, so I wasn’t the only one who beat him.

bluewolf

Why not both?

Shaking up the meta?  Probably good.

But either they power creep him, or you'll just see him everywhere in the near future.  I'm not sure he's the same as Gambit, as maybe there will be a good counter or two, but I guess we'll see there.

I predict people in 3/4 land will be sick of him very quickly.

HoundofShadow

Apocalypse is here to save the game

A champed Apocalypse and yet his CP store is not even out? Someone faced a champed iHulk in shield simulator before his CP store was out. I wonder if it's the same person.

Apocalypse will definitely shake up the meta in PvPs.

In PvPs, the two main challenges are either getting stun-locked or getting tortured fighting against BRB/Kitty. It seems like Apocalypse was created to address both metas. 

With Apocalypse/?, even though he has high hp, but matches should be faster than facing Bishop or BRB/Kitty. This reminds me of Thorokoye dominating in PvPs in the past, but they are easy to beat. 

In 4* land, I rather face him than Prof Match-4 who Signal Boosts my team at least 3-4 times on average per fight.The amount of ap gained is ridiculous and throw in America Chavez, who is a common teammate of his, and you have critical tile going off every turn, and she will also hand you a ticket to the Multiverse.

I find that he's a really good single champed character for transition to 5* land, especially when he is teamed up with characters who can multi-tap on his yellow.  Sabretooth, Valkyrie, Human Torch, comes to mind. What's more, this beast is not dependant on other teammates. He self-feeds. Firing his black twice should be enough to end most matches.

Even though the power creep is there, at least they gave us something that a lot of players asked for, characters that are as powerful as what they had been potrayed in comics. I think not many people wanted to see Weakapocalypse in this game.
 

fight4thedream

At least on paper, no. 

Gambit pretty much could do everything on his own. AP generation, AP burn, special tile overwrite, etc. His best partners were Thor for accelerating AP gen and the green AoE and Black Bolt for charged tiles (although the usual strategy against Gambit was to simply wait for the enemy Gambit to lay down the first set of charged tiles and work from there). Most significantly, there really wasn't anyone or team combo at the time that could handle him well. 

You basically needed to bring Gambit to beat Gambit.

Apocalypse, on the other hand, is entering a much more versatile and better prepared meta environment. 

A player with a high level Okoye and an iHulk will certainly have little trouble dealing with Apocalypse. They will be chasing yellow and red AP anyway. If Apocalypse isn't with Beta, they basically won't have to worry about black since he will have to cast it twice in order for it to do damage. 

The only iteration I can think of that may cause trouble for Okoye iHulk is the A + B team.  I know some people think Beta's blue is too cheap and does too much but seeing as we are entering a new phase of offensive power, I am beginning to see why his blue functions as it does. To put it simply, if there was no Beta then PvP would be overrun with Okoye iHulk teams or Apocalypse iHulk teams. 

There was some concern initially that A + B team would be OP since A's black is described as destroying protect tiles which would in turn generate AP for B. However, currently the ability removes protect tiles, not destroys, meaning no AP for Beta. As long as this is the case, I think A + B team falls within the same tier of power as Okoye iHulk. No doubt, it's still a crazy strong team but not invincible. 

If anything, Apocalypse adds depth to the current PvP meta. If we were to consider the meta as spectrum with offensive mechanics being at one end and defensive mechanics at the other, then I believe you would find Okoye/iHulk or Okoye/Thor at the offensive end and Beta/Kitty or Beta/Bishop at the defensive end, and in the middle Beta/Apocalypse. And that's not even taking into consideration Yelena Belova's skill set which could potentially lock Apocalypse out of using any of his abilities. 

On a bit of a side note, this next generation of Latest Legends is perfectly suited to flesh out the current meta. If a player has a high level Okoye, getting iHulk is a no brainer. If they prefer Beta, Thor or Prof X, then Apocalypse. And then there's the wild card, Yelena whose AP manipulation powers are going to be a headache for anyone trying to use active abilities that cost over 6 (has anyone noticed she completely shuts down all versions of Natasha?) /[although i suppose if you wanted to be clever, you could +1 or 2 AP boost for 7 or 8 AP cost abilities when fighting her.]

But I digress.          

In general, the overall strategy in fighting Apocalypse will be to deny yellow and remove any protect tiles that may be generated from his black.  Once he gets his yellow repeaters on the board is when things will get really dicey. Without yellow on the board, his red will lack punch (no pun intended) and without protect tiles his black will burst heal and add protect tiles to the board. Obviously in the players hands, they will wait until conditions are right but the AI won't consider how to maximize damage. 

So in short, he brings a lot to the table but I believe it's nothing that the current meta can't handle.  What I am really curious to know is which team is stronger: high level Okoye/iHulk vs high level Beta/Apocalypse? Or are they roughly equal?  

atomzed

Apocalypse is the new old Gambit

I voted for option 1. 

Mainly I will be proved wrong, which I will be Glad. 

My worry is that Apocalypse is the full package. It has so much health, great match damage, low ap moves, and a skill set that complements each other. 

The danger with such a character is that he tower so high about the rest, that you need to have him to compete in pvp.
Fight4thedream make some interesting points.... the game does have more tools for us to deal with such a character now.  I think whether his is at an gambit-level of disaster, depends on how he plays in defence mode. If Apocalypse is AI proof, then we will witness frustration.
Is apocalypse AI proof? Can you deny 3 colours, and take out his massive health before that? We should see.

Tony_Foot

Apocalypse is here to save the game

I think the point being missed is for over a year people complained the top of the meta was stale, the only way to continually move on from that is power creep. You want to eat through kitty and BRB teams well here's what you have been asking for. You want to stop bishop well here it is. The other options which are nerfs which never go down well when you have spent months/years on a plan to get a character.

This signals the start of 5.5* in my opinion, you know the thing everyone wanted with 4*s that they will now complain about. People need to stop banging on about reworks to silver surfer or Jean at this point, making one of those meta just increases the CP pressure on newer players and possibly old.

The only way to play this game now is to hoard for Meta and let others slide. Sped up releases are wonderful in my opinion as fewer people will have them all and allow some variation. No good has every come from everyone having them all champed.

Apoc is here to move the game to 5.5. Excellent.

bluewolf

Why not both?

By the way, word is that Apocalypse's black is, indeed, supposed to be destroying protects and ensuring the A+B team synergy.

The in game description includes the standard disclaimer "Destroyed tiles do not deal damage or generate AP" so I assume he is bugged at the moment from both what people have heard and their own description.

So you really should expect that the A + B synergy will be in full force once they fix him.

atomzed

Apocalypse is the new old Gambit

bluewolf said:

By the way, word is that Apocalypse's black is, indeed, supposed to be destroying protects and ensuring the A+B team synergy.

The in game description includes the standard disclaimer "Destroyed tiles do not deal damage or generate AP" so I assume he is bugged at the moment from both what people have heard and their own description.

So you really should expect that the A + B synergy will be in full force once they fix him.

Sigh that’s what I am worried about. It will elevate A+B team to tier 1. 

Boost +4 black. Match 1 black. Cast Apocalypse black, Kill off one enemy almost instantly. Generate 4 blue and 4 green. Cast BRB blue to finish off the enemy, if it is still standing. 

That’s around 60k worth of damage on T2. Even gambit 1.0 takes a while to reach that damage level. 

atomzed

Apocalypse is the new old Gambit

658_2 said:

As an aside, I noticed the guy running Apoc switched from BRB to PX as the event went on, which I thought was interesting. 

He’s probably fighting the wave of Bishop + BRB team, so he needed the stun immunity. 

Aweberman

If Apocalypse is as good in reality as he seems to be in theory, then perhaps they are doing us a favor in moving up his release, since that will leave him in tokens for longer than the 4/5/4/5 rotation would normally allow for. 

Admittedly, this is at the cost of Havok, but whaddayagonnado?

Kingart813

Apocalypse is here to save the game

I'm super happy about this release!  Very Solid  Character that gives more options to face off against meta teams.  I say keep them coming, and rework some previous characters to shake up the meta and give us variety

grunth13

Apocalypse is the new old Gambit

Won't it be fun to see him in every challenge node with a mutant and brb with 600k health by himself at level 650.

jredd

DyingLegend said:

I think the main thing apocalypse outlines is how much power creep has ruined the original 5 star group. 

They need to take a break from releasing characters for a bit, and refresh some of the original 5 stars, cause they arent even in the same league. It's safe to say old man Logan and gambit could be brought back to what they use to be. 

The best thing for a game like this is a healthy diverse meta. Is it achievable, maybe. I want to use my entire arsenal of tricks, instead of the same characters combos for eternity. 

I'll second the return of gambit to 2.0 status and oml to his former glory.

Vhailorx

Apoc will not be as dominant as Gambit.  The 5* tier is much bigger now, so it's harder to dominant everyone so utterly. But even more important is that apoc doesn't have the sort of passive powers that can dominate the game on offense and defense (things like passive ap gen or damage boosting are both fast and ai-proof).

The last time a meta team did not rely purely on active powers was what?  4* thorverine? sentry bombing?  That was 2014/15.  It's just really really hard to dominate all game modes without strong passives.

I think apoc will enter the meta mix on offense, in pvp and maybe even in pve.  He has cheap, good powers and a ton of versatility.  But on defense he seems more likely to be something like gritty, in that he will likely hurt to fight, but can be dealt with reliably, than to be like Gambit 1.0 or stunner bro teams where the only reasonable option is to use a mirror team.

bluewolf

Why not both?

Aweberman said:

If Apocalypse is as good in reality as he seems to be in theory, then perhaps they are doing us a favor in moving up his release, since that will leave him in tokens for longer than the 4/5/4/5 rotation would normally allow for. 

Admittedly, this is at the cost of Havok, but whaddayagonnado?

It's a good point that if the next characters are:  4/4/5/4/5/4/5, that will give Apocalypse 14 weeks in Latests vs 12 for everyone else under a 4/5/4/5 schedule.  So yeah, Havok gets the short end of the stick with a 10 week stay, but that seems par for the course for the guy we really think of as "Cyclop's brother".  He's the Liam Hemsworth of the X-men, lol.

Daredevil217

Yeah but that’s assuming they “course correct” and give us two 4* in a row. Which I have zero reason to believe will happen knowing this company. They’ve already taken the “hits” for this. Might as well keep applying that pressure. I believe if we were getting two 4* to even things out, that would have been part of the whole “our hands were tied” press release. 

bluewolf

Why not both?

Daredevil217 said:

Yeah but that’s assuming they “course correct” and give us two 4* in a row. Which I have zero reason to believe will happen knowing this company. They’ve already taken the “hits” for this. Might as well keep applying that pressure. I believe if we were getting two 4* to even things out, that would have been part of the whole “our hands were tied” press release. 

They never tell us anything, historically, in terms of expected characters, rarities, etc.  The only change recently has been telling us at the beginning of the month that we can expect another character that month, and I think they have been telling us it will be a 5 recently, since they have been releasing a 4 first then a 5 (until Apocalypse).

To be fair to them, I suspect they err on the side of caution in terms of "what if something blows up and we can't release that same character a month from now?".

However yes, it would be foolish to expect two 4's in a row at this point.  We will see what they do and if they are committed in a balanced release pattern in terms of adding to the different tiers.

All that said, a little communication about this would go a long way.

ZootSax

Vhailorx said:

The last time a meta team did not rely purely on active powers was what?  4* thorverine? sentry bombing?  That was 2014/15.  It's just really really hard to dominate all game modes without strong passives.

Even both of those used Hood in Pick-3, if I’m not mistaken.

Vhailorx

ZootSax said:

Vhailorx said:

The last time a meta team did not rely purely on active powers was what?  4* thorverine? sentry bombing?  That was 2014/15.  It's just really really hard to dominate all game modes without strong passives.

Even both of those used Hood in Pick-3, if I’m not mistaken.

Sentry bombing more or less required sentry to proc the CDs early.  So it's a bit of a cheat to call it an active-only strat.  But it would have been viable with just Hood's black, so I think it counts.  Thorverine was definitely a true, active-only meta.