Breaking the clearing speed status quo

Mayo
Mayo Posts: 156 Tile Toppler
edited January 2020 in MPQ General Discussion
Points awarded each battle in pve should be based on number of color combinations based on the team characters (bonus for using an all GotG, x men, avengers, Sinister 6, etc teams), bonus points number of 3, 4, 5, and 5+ matches, winning under specific conditions, etc. This would give more randomness to the game and give opportunity for other players to have a better position in each event. As a bonus you could start at any time during your slice without stressing yourself with finishing fast knowing that your score will depend on your combos and clearing all the nodes before the time is up and still be top 10 with some skill and luck. 
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Comments

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    This would be a massive change to the game, and would have to be considered in more detail than is possible in a 400-word post.  But I definitely agree that some change to the 'speed and optimal scheduling is essential' meta is necessary.
  • LLohm
    LLohm Posts: 84 Match Maker
    Mayo said:
    Points awarded each battle in pve should be based on number of color combinations based on the team characters (bonus for using an all GotG, x men, avengers, Sinister 6, etc teams), bonus points number of 3, 4, 5, and 5+ matches, winning under specific conditions, etc. This would give more randomness to the game and give opportunity for other players to have a better position in each event. As a bonus you could start at any time during your slice without stressing yourself with finishing fast knowing that your score will depend on your combos and clearing all the nodes before the time is up and still be top 10 with some skill and luck. 
    You will just end up with a lot of tie scores and then the speed element of who did it first will come about. 

    Not going to work.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,786 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ummm...

    You say it wouldnt work... But im not sold that easily.  I think you're judging it strictly on what the OP said.

    Expand on the idea.  Treat it like it was just a pitch.  Because thats what it was.

    As it is now, plenty of people 'tie'.  This person is throwing out a different solution, and time can STILL be a factor, but in this case, i would think each game's time is recorded, and that becomes a basis for score AS WELL AS the points system mentioned.

    Add in weekly, or boost-list-related, point challenges.  Extra points for clearing 3 nodes with Emma, extra points for each SAP tile left on the board at game end, extra points for each multiple of 5 AP you have in a given color...  You get the point!  Theres tons of ways to make a point based system, include a timer per match for extra measure....

    ....and if you STILL get ties... How is that any different than how it is now, besides allowing players to play when they want?
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yeah. End of the day, if 1000 players tie for top 1, the dev is not going to give all of them top 1 rewards. It will go to the fastest player. It's what happening now in the current PvE, I believe.

    Also, the players with the widest and highest levelled rosters are more likely to win.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Forget all this stuff and just make some more REALLY HARD nodes that people can’t face roll. 

    7x clears of L700 enemies or something. 

    Problem solved. 
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    Nice bunch of ideas @fight4thedream.

    Unfortunately it's still a match-3 superhero game which needs to appeal to the masses who go "Cool!  Spider-Man, Iron-Man, and Hulk are in a game I can play while waiting in line at the bank/on the can!"

    So find the easiest thing that can be explained with about the same complexity as:

    1.  Clear all the nodes 4X right away.
    2.  Come back when 24 hours are up and clear 3X more.

    Exceptions:  Waves (clear 2X first) and 48 hour nodes (clear 1X at the 24, then 3X at 48)

    If it's more complicated than that it's not getting past the "musing over the cubicle wall" phase of development.
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't want to have to perform complex differential equations to figure out which teams benefit me the most and in which order.

    Speed is fine. I don't want to spend any more time than I have to clearing The Hunt for the 8 billionth time.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,786 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hmm.  I think what you're saying about the "simplicity of the current system", and what it REALLY IS... Is two different things.

    Sure, 4 nodes now, 3 later, sounds simple...

    BUT WHERE IN THE GAMES DOES IT EXPLAIN THAT?!

    no where.  Heck, you gotta find official forums and knowledgable players and posts, and THEN maybe you can piece it together with enough reading and understanding.

    No, the in game timer isnt enough.  Deducing what it implies, and telling the player basically that they need to schedule their gameplay is ridiculous.  And yes, i realize that some players are willing to do that. 

    But id bet cold hard cash that if you told those same players you could be done with your daily grind in one go instead of two, that the outcome would favor one over two.

    Whats better than having more players interested?!  Nothing!  

    As far as making it "simple", just do what so many games do nowadays when it comes to sidequests and challenges: put it in an expandable corner screen during gameplay, and on the node-selection map.  Have each challenge listed explain its point value or multiplier.  

    Right there, thats easier than what it is currently.  You're telling the players up-front how to score.  You're keeping it fresh/different from event to event.  Only one play session needed per day.  

    Bonus:. If the in game timer only recorded the time taken during each game played, people might read the story again.

    If you were to apply this idea to todays 2 run requirement of 4/3, sure, more players could understand better, but i think you'd still lose interest from some players when they learn two sessions within 24 hours is needed to try to get top prizes.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    M:tGPQ has a thread from the devs asking about a quest system I noticed: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/80896/new-feature-quest-system-would-you-also-be-interested-in-coalition-quests/p1
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    To follow up:

    I agree that it takes special knowledge to fully understand the way the way the timers work and how to achieve maximum points.  It should be possible for someone, using observation and experimentation, to figure out the 4X/3X without using community-based resources.  However, it's obviously faster to engage with other players.

    The game devs could well intend that the game be a bit obtuse on the maximum scoring since it is Marvel Puzzle Quest and if they create a need to find information, it helps build community engagement with people sharing strategies and tips.  

    Note that even a player who didn't try hard to determine how to maximize points, but just looked at the reward counter and decided to collect all 6 rewards (4 on waves) would easily hit maximum progression - and beyond - a score which is:  1.  A pretty big accomplishment the first time you do it  2.  Actually the lion's share of rewards that most players will experience, especially in lower SCLs  3. Often going to give you pretty good placement since (obviously?) most of the people playing don't bother playing past maximum progression, if they actually get to full progression.  4.  Entirely possible to achieve by playing whenever you want.

    And there's no "secret knowledge" needed to get full progression as long as you can pay attention to the reward progress counters.

    This is not to say I am not open to changes or improvements in the game's reward system.  I am just saying:

    1.  90% of what you need to know is easily observed and understood in game - just by focusing on the nodes as you play, and the changing reward counters and such.
    2.  The system for maximum scoring is pretty easy to understand once you either figure it out or have it explained to you.  (Disregarding the secret order to fully optimize points.)

    So I believe that simplicity guides much of the design the developers have implemented for their scoring system, and would want to build any alternative system in such a way that is, at its essence, easy for the casual player to understand.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I have the exact same experience as his alliance member. I was asking, "Why am I top 1 after green-checking all the nodes but I end up not being top 1 at the end of the event?"

    My curiosity wants to know the answer to "How can I still be at the top 1 at the end of the event?" This led me to googling for answers and it brought me to reddit MPQ and this forum. This is how I knew the "trick" to playing PvEs optimally.

    I guess this could be deliberate?
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,786 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    I have the exact same experience as his alliance member. I was asking, "Why am I top 1 after green-checking all the nodes but I end up not being top 1 at the end of the event?"

    My curiosity wants to know the answer to "How can I still be at the top 1 at the end of the event?" This led me to googling for answers and it brought me to reddit MPQ and this forum. This is how I knew the "trick" to playing PvEs optimally.

    I guess this could be deliberate?
    Yuck.  If thats deliberate, then that leaves a sour taste in mouth.

    I would hope that a game and company wouldnt have to rely on their public players forums in order to teach someone the rules of your game

    Its one thing to have secrets, tips, and tricks that players figure out, but figuring out why you lost shouldnt be a "secret".
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    I am on the side of PiMacleod in terms of 'ease of use'.  The mechanics of scoring in PVE seem straightforward to those of us who have played competitively under them for years, but I don't think they are actually all that intuitive or well-explained in the game. 

    As for what changes might be possible, there are lots of alternative routes, as discussed above, or as seen in other games. 

    As one example that I have mentioned in other posts, MPQ could borrow from tabletop fleet-building games and assign each character a 'strength score' and then set a strength budget for any given node/event.  The budget could be a hard cap, locking out any team combos that exceed the budget, or it could be a softcap, so that players received some penalty (or gained some benefit) from running a over-/under-budget team.  Another advantage of this system is that it would make small post-release nerfs/buffs much easier for demi to do, because changing a characters strengh score has the effect of making that character stronger or weaker without requiring any actual reworking of their abilities (And the attendant dev time/testing that requires). 

    But the bottom line is that any such change to the pve scoring system would be a massive shift of the entire MPQ economy, and I don't know that demi/d3 have much interest in taking that sort of risk with a game that has already defied the odds to last this long.  So while I do long for a system that offered true PVE rewards, rather than the grind-fest racing game system we have now, I wouldn't get my hopes up.


  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    Using obfuscated rules to make your game more challenging is bad design. I like this game, but that is an artificial barrier to entry. Go in game and look at the "Event Rules" description for Weapon Tex-Mex that's running at the time of this post:

    "Oh come on...Didn't you read the event intro text? Do I have to spell this out all over again?

    Whatever... Fine...

    Join forces with Deadpool (it's me, deadpool!) and blah, blah, blah ...Let's just skip to the next bit.

    Protect yourself by raising SHIELDS!

    I won't think less of you for hiding behind a shield - fear is a natural reaction when people try to hurt you.

    I've been hurt by unfeeling words too often to count.

    They leave marks you know. Scars that no-one sees. I've got real scars too! you wanna see 'em?

    But that's what this job is all about, amiright?

    Harsh Language, callous flesh wounds, major arterial bleeding, organ failure - nothing you can't bounce back from with the right attitude and a healing factor.

    you don't have a healing factor? Don't sweat it.

    The right attitude is what's really important. POsitive thinking. Mind-over-matter.

    Oh, hey, is this your intestine?"

    I guess that tells me how to play PVP, and what MMR does?
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    I agree that it's not clear, the optimal scoring system, and would take devoted record keeping or searching for more information to figure it out.  I actually googled and found the forum after about a month or two of trying hard; I can't remember my exact reasoning but it revealed what I needed to do to place well, eventually.

    I might argue that the devs already have a lot of information to convey for the average player, and there are complicated characters, mechanics and the majority of players will not care at all about placing well.

    But they should put the information in the "Help" section in the game.  There's really no question about that in my opinion.

    I suppose it's possible they don't want to advertise the way the game locks you into a schedule to achieve optimal performance, and think it's better to leave it up to the people who want to do really well to find that out.  It's one thing to explain how to collect AP to fire powers, it's another thing to tell people "Play immediately as fast as you can!  Now wait 24 hours and do it again!  Oh, but you need to wait less than 24 hours because you want to do it just time before the sub ends!"  I could imagine a lot of casuals/beginners reading that and saying "tinykiity that noise" before they've even champed their first 2.

    And I wasn't saying, to be clear, that it's easy to understand the "maximum score" approach and requirements.  Just that it seems pretty easy to understand "I want more rewards and the game shows me how many are in each node with a counter."  And again, getting all those rewards will give you maximum progression, and most of the time will result in you placing pretty well in the event.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think the Alliance refresh rate of every 8hrs is not super well communicated either; i find that every time one comes around I have to explain it to my alliance, which tends to result in one or two of them "getting it," and the rest kind of either just fizzling out, not having the characters, or something else that leads to us getting to the first 4* reward and running out of steam.

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