Gambit and OML

Borstock

I sold my Gambit. I would be aggravated if they restored him.

Vhailorx

Borstock said:

I sold my Gambit. I would be aggravated if they restored him.

It would suck for sure.  But if you sold Gambit because his value changed, you can't really be too surprised by a subsequent value change, can you?

Also, out of curiosity, did you get a useful outcome from selling Gambit?  Even at 1:1 5* covers, the token pool was so diluted that I could see any upside in selling him.

DAZ0273

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

blankcanvas said:

Spot on @bluewolf. Usage stats supposedly dictated the OML nerf. They could easily reverse now as he's nowhere near the meta usage when compared to the likes of gritty, thorkoye, bishop, juggs and sabretooth.

Let's be honest (and no this is not a call for a nerf!) I suspect Kitty easily comes close to if not equals use across ALL tiers as much as OML did. OML wasn't really much of a threat on defence, not like Kitty is. They share that yellow in common too, lol!

Logans pre nerf sustain far outweighs kitties buffing for his use. You could team him with any character you wanted. Kitty needs allies with specials.

If they would revert Logan at 5 covers but reduce his yellow at one or two covers he would be fine. As he is I still use him tons. Kitty, logan, iceman is very effective and fun in 5* land.

Hmm...are you sure? I would be willing to bet that Kitty, on a per ratio basis, is up there. Maybe she does need a nerf if the protests are the lady, etc, eh? 😉😂

Vhailorx

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

blankcanvas said:

Spot on @bluewolf. Usage stats supposedly dictated the OML nerf. They could easily reverse now as he's nowhere near the meta usage when compared to the likes of gritty, thorkoye, bishop, juggs and sabretooth.

Let's be honest (and no this is not a call for a nerf!) I suspect Kitty easily comes close to if not equals use across ALL tiers as much as OML did. OML wasn't really much of a threat on defence, not like Kitty is. They share that yellow in common too, lol!

Logans pre nerf sustain far outweighs kitties buffing for his use. You could team him with any character you wanted. Kitty needs allies with specials.

If they would revert Logan at 5 covers but reduce his yellow at one or two covers he would be fine. As he is I still use him tons. Kitty, logan, iceman is very effective and fun in 5* land.

Hmm...are you sure? I would be willing to bet that Kitty, on a per ratio basis, is up there. Maybe she does need a nerf if the protests are the lady, etc, eh? 😉😂

Kitty by herself is absolutely fine.  No one is scared by kitty alone.

Kitty + instant tiles are an inconvenience, but even so area manageable. 

Kitty + instant tiles PLUS a long stun on turn 2 from unavoidable passives is a problem.

DAZ0273

Vhailorx said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

blankcanvas said:

Spot on @bluewolf. Usage stats supposedly dictated the OML nerf. They could easily reverse now as he's nowhere near the meta usage when compared to the likes of gritty, thorkoye, bishop, juggs and sabretooth.

Let's be honest (and no this is not a call for a nerf!) I suspect Kitty easily comes close to if not equals use across ALL tiers as much as OML did. OML wasn't really much of a threat on defence, not like Kitty is. They share that yellow in common too, lol!

Logans pre nerf sustain far outweighs kitties buffing for his use. You could team him with any character you wanted. Kitty needs allies with specials.

If they would revert Logan at 5 covers but reduce his yellow at one or two covers he would be fine. As he is I still use him tons. Kitty, logan, iceman is very effective and fun in 5* land.

Hmm...are you sure? I would be willing to bet that Kitty, on a per ratio basis, is up there. Maybe she does need a nerf if the protests are the lady, etc, eh? 😉😂

Kitty by herself is absolutely fine.  No one is scared by kitty alone.

Kitty + instant tiles are an inconvenience, but even so area manageable. 

Kitty + instant tiles PLUS a long stun on turn 2 from unavoidable passives is a problem.

Again, no offence but I don't think you are seeing lower levels and are just talking from a level where Kitty is norm rather than abnormally featured relevant to how many covers/levels. I am by no means a noob either but Kitty is far more widespread than your model suggests. Plenty of 1 level yellow Kitty's are in the mix that you will never see. I honestly scratch my head sometimes looking at the other options these players have and yet there is Kitty. 

tiomono

DAZ0273 said:

Vhailorx said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

blankcanvas said:

Spot on @bluewolf. Usage stats supposedly dictated the OML nerf. They could easily reverse now as he's nowhere near the meta usage when compared to the likes of gritty, thorkoye, bishop, juggs and sabretooth.

Let's be honest (and no this is not a call for a nerf!) I suspect Kitty easily comes close to if not equals use across ALL tiers as much as OML did. OML wasn't really much of a threat on defence, not like Kitty is. They share that yellow in common too, lol!

Logans pre nerf sustain far outweighs kitties buffing for his use. You could team him with any character you wanted. Kitty needs allies with specials.

If they would revert Logan at 5 covers but reduce his yellow at one or two covers he would be fine. As he is I still use him tons. Kitty, logan, iceman is very effective and fun in 5* land.

Hmm...are you sure? I would be willing to bet that Kitty, on a per ratio basis, is up there. Maybe she does need a nerf if the protests are the lady, etc, eh? 😉😂

Kitty by herself is absolutely fine.  No one is scared by kitty alone.

Kitty + instant tiles are an inconvenience, but even so area manageable. 

Kitty + instant tiles PLUS a long stun on turn 2 from unavoidable passives is a problem.

Again, no offence but I don't think you are seeing lower levels and are just talking from a level where Kitty is norm rather than abnormally featured relevant to how many covers/levels. I am by no means a noob either but Kitty is far more widespread than your model suggests. Plenty of 1 level yellow Kitty's are in the mix that you will never see. I honestly scratch my head sometimes looking at the other options these players have and yet there is Kitty. 

Were you around for oml before his nerf? Kitty at 1 yellow needs something to buff or to gain 8 yellow to put out 2 protects. Oml at 1 yellow needed nothing. He was a self sustaining meatshield that was very difficult for low tier rosters to face. And he was much easier to get because there were way less 5*'s.

Vhailorx

DAZ0273 said:

Again, no offence but I don't think you are seeing lower levels and are just talking from a level where Kitty is norm rather than abnormally featured relevant to how many covers/levels. I am by no means a noob either but Kitty is far more widespread than your model suggests. Plenty of 1 level yellow Kitty's are in the mix that you will never see. I honestly scratch my head sometimes looking at the other options these players have and yet there is Kitty. 

So kitty is overutilized at the low levels?  Sure, if you say so.  it's not my fault that people play suboptimally because they don't understand the meta and think kitty is great for everyone because she is legitimately great in 5* land.

But that wasn't what I said.  I said that kitty by herself isn't a problem. And that's true.  If some 3* players wants to run Daken + blade + kitty, that's fine.  Anyone who really wants to win can run any number of superior alternstives, even in just the 3* space (if/cyc/IM40, hell, even switch/bullseye/meatshield would punish that team).

Kitty doesn't really become a problem until 4* land where she can pair with grocket and start boosting tiles immediately.   And even then a level 255 kitty with 1-3 yellow covers is still slow enough that there are viable 4* counter teams available.

As for OML, the problem was less severe by the time he was nerfed, but from his release in October 2015 until ~mid 2016, a 1/1/1 OML @300 + anyone was better than almost all possible 3*/4* teams in the game.  The lack of variety available and the big jump in strength of 5*s (plus the fact that no one had high level 4* champs yet), made OML a real outlier at lower covers/levels. 

TPF Alexis

ThaRoadWarrior said:

It never seems to be a number tweak on these things, it’s always a scorched earth reconstruction. Seems like just playing with damage or AP gain numbers would be enough.

That always bugs me. There are a fair few characters where the mechanics are fine, but the numbers are too high/low. Those could be such simple tweaks, and could also be done very conservatively and gradually.

Vhailorx

TPF Alexis said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

It never seems to be a number tweak on these things, it’s always a scorched earth reconstruction. Seems like just playing with damage or AP gain numbers would be enough.

That always bugs me. There are a fair few characters where the mechanics are fine, but the numbers are too high/low. Those could be such simple tweaks, and could also be done very conservatively and gradually.

Sadly, I don't know of that is true.  It definitely seems like adjusting numbers on a power is easier than changing mechanics.  That might be true, depending on how the game is coded.  But I think that a significant portion of the 'costs' of updating the game are things like dev time NOT spent designing a new character, play-testing, and whatever hoops they have to jump through to update the game on their respective platforms.  And this costs probably don't change much whether the rework is big or small.

(This is all speculation, so take it fwiw.)

ThaRoadWarrior

Changing a damage number is almost certainly trivial, and could almost certainly be done by a designer with little to no engineering support. Manually testing it with all possible edge cases possibly not so much, but it can’t possibly be easier to do a total power replacement than to adjust a variable in a character class.

ThaRoadWarrior

Surely 4ocket has been used in more fights since release than any other character? 

DAZ0273

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

Vhailorx said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

blankcanvas said:

Spot on @bluewolf. Usage stats supposedly dictated the OML nerf. They could easily reverse now as he's nowhere near the meta usage when compared to the likes of gritty, thorkoye, bishop, juggs and sabretooth.

Let's be honest (and no this is not a call for a nerf!) I suspect Kitty easily comes close to if not equals use across ALL tiers as much as OML did. OML wasn't really much of a threat on defence, not like Kitty is. They share that yellow in common too, lol!

Logans pre nerf sustain far outweighs kitties buffing for his use. You could team him with any character you wanted. Kitty needs allies with specials.

If they would revert Logan at 5 covers but reduce his yellow at one or two covers he would be fine. As he is I still use him tons. Kitty, logan, iceman is very effective and fun in 5* land.

Hmm...are you sure? I would be willing to bet that Kitty, on a per ratio basis, is up there. Maybe she does need a nerf if the protests are the lady, etc, eh? 😉😂

Kitty by herself is absolutely fine.  No one is scared by kitty alone.

Kitty + instant tiles are an inconvenience, but even so area manageable. 

Kitty + instant tiles PLUS a long stun on turn 2 from unavoidable passives is a problem.

Again, no offence but I don't think you are seeing lower levels and are just talking from a level where Kitty is norm rather than abnormally featured relevant to how many covers/levels. I am by no means a noob either but Kitty is far more widespread than your model suggests. Plenty of 1 level yellow Kitty's are in the mix that you will never see. I honestly scratch my head sometimes looking at the other options these players have and yet there is Kitty. 

Were you around for oml before his nerf? Kitty at 1 yellow needs something to buff or to gain 8 yellow to put out 2 protects. Oml at 1 yellow needed nothing. He was a self sustaining meatshield that was very difficult for low tier rosters to face. And he was much easier to get because there were way less 5*'s.

I was indeed around for OML before his nerf but as I said in my original post the difference is that OML was no deterrent in PvP on defence. You could wear him down and his health was low - Thanos was more of a scarecrow back in the day. And finding Kitty a partner to buff is hardly a lot of work - 3* Daken is a favourite for 3* players who have her yellow.

DAZ0273

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Surely 4ocket has been used in more fights since release than any other character? 

This is probably true but if you nerf him I think there would be actual riots...

The one that I also wonder about is Dr. Strange. I have seen countless player guides that tell you Strange is for PvE not PvP but I have seen that guy on so many teams over the years and I guess his burst heal, counter attack and nasty stun make up for him being squishy or something.

tiomono

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

Vhailorx said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

blankcanvas said:

Spot on @bluewolf. Usage stats supposedly dictated the OML nerf. They could easily reverse now as he's nowhere near the meta usage when compared to the likes of gritty, thorkoye, bishop, juggs and sabretooth.

Let's be honest (and no this is not a call for a nerf!) I suspect Kitty easily comes close to if not equals use across ALL tiers as much as OML did. OML wasn't really much of a threat on defence, not like Kitty is. They share that yellow in common too, lol!

Logans pre nerf sustain far outweighs kitties buffing for his use. You could team him with any character you wanted. Kitty needs allies with specials.

If they would revert Logan at 5 covers but reduce his yellow at one or two covers he would be fine. As he is I still use him tons. Kitty, logan, iceman is very effective and fun in 5* land.

Hmm...are you sure? I would be willing to bet that Kitty, on a per ratio basis, is up there. Maybe she does need a nerf if the protests are the lady, etc, eh? 😉😂

Kitty by herself is absolutely fine.  No one is scared by kitty alone.

Kitty + instant tiles are an inconvenience, but even so area manageable. 

Kitty + instant tiles PLUS a long stun on turn 2 from unavoidable passives is a problem.

Again, no offence but I don't think you are seeing lower levels and are just talking from a level where Kitty is norm rather than abnormally featured relevant to how many covers/levels. I am by no means a noob either but Kitty is far more widespread than your model suggests. Plenty of 1 level yellow Kitty's are in the mix that you will never see. I honestly scratch my head sometimes looking at the other options these players have and yet there is Kitty. 

Were you around for oml before his nerf? Kitty at 1 yellow needs something to buff or to gain 8 yellow to put out 2 protects. Oml at 1 yellow needed nothing. He was a self sustaining meatshield that was very difficult for low tier rosters to face. And he was much easier to get because there were way less 5*'s.

I was indeed around for OML before his nerf but as I said in my original post the difference is that OML was no deterrent in PvP on defence. You could wear him down and his health was low - Thanos was more of a scarecrow back in the day. And finding Kitty a partner to buff is hardly a lot of work - 3* Daken is a favourite for 3* players who have her yellow.

What was your roster like around that time? I was in beginner 3* land and Logan was most definitely a deterrent to me. He shrugged off all match damage, could take a decent amount of hits and still heal up. While doing bigger match damage than anything I could muster. 

I'm really not interested in taking this discussion to kitty vs Logan. The topic was should Logan and gambit be reverted. Gambit I say no. There had never been a one man wrecking crew like that before him and I hope there will never be another. Logan could be reverted with his effectiveness lowered with fewer covers on his yellow.

DAZ0273

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

Vhailorx said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

blankcanvas said:

Spot on @bluewolf. Usage stats supposedly dictated the OML nerf. They could easily reverse now as he's nowhere near the meta usage when compared to the likes of gritty, thorkoye, bishop, juggs and sabretooth.

Let's be honest (and no this is not a call for a nerf!) I suspect Kitty easily comes close to if not equals use across ALL tiers as much as OML did. OML wasn't really much of a threat on defence, not like Kitty is. They share that yellow in common too, lol!

Logans pre nerf sustain far outweighs kitties buffing for his use. You could team him with any character you wanted. Kitty needs allies with specials.

If they would revert Logan at 5 covers but reduce his yellow at one or two covers he would be fine. As he is I still use him tons. Kitty, logan, iceman is very effective and fun in 5* land.

Hmm...are you sure? I would be willing to bet that Kitty, on a per ratio basis, is up there. Maybe she does need a nerf if the protests are the lady, etc, eh? 😉😂

Kitty by herself is absolutely fine.  No one is scared by kitty alone.

Kitty + instant tiles are an inconvenience, but even so area manageable. 

Kitty + instant tiles PLUS a long stun on turn 2 from unavoidable passives is a problem.

Again, no offence but I don't think you are seeing lower levels and are just talking from a level where Kitty is norm rather than abnormally featured relevant to how many covers/levels. I am by no means a noob either but Kitty is far more widespread than your model suggests. Plenty of 1 level yellow Kitty's are in the mix that you will never see. I honestly scratch my head sometimes looking at the other options these players have and yet there is Kitty. 

Were you around for oml before his nerf? Kitty at 1 yellow needs something to buff or to gain 8 yellow to put out 2 protects. Oml at 1 yellow needed nothing. He was a self sustaining meatshield that was very difficult for low tier rosters to face. And he was much easier to get because there were way less 5*'s.

I was indeed around for OML before his nerf but as I said in my original post the difference is that OML was no deterrent in PvP on defence. You could wear him down and his health was low - Thanos was more of a scarecrow back in the day. And finding Kitty a partner to buff is hardly a lot of work - 3* Daken is a favourite for 3* players who have her yellow.

What was your roster like around that time? I was in beginner 3* land and Logan was most definitely a deterrent to me. He shrugged off all match damage, could take a decent amount of hits and still heal up. While doing bigger match damage than anything I could muster. 

I'm really not interested in taking this discussion to kitty vs Logan. The topic was should Logan and gambit be reverted. Gambit I say no. There had never been a one man wrecking crew like that before him and I hope there will never be another. Logan could be reverted with his effectiveness lowered with fewer covers on his yellow.

If you look the page before you'll see I talk about running a 0/2/0 OML with IM40 and 3* Thor in PvP. I had very bad luck in this game and should really be a full on 5* player by now rather than somebody with just a 13 cover Cable I can't risk champing. So yeah, I've been around for a bit and remember when every single CS cover swap request on this forum was yellow OML. Being a lucky one who got 2 of them at the time I guess my view is a bit biased. Going back to the topic - in the other post I said I would be fine with a reversion of OML and Gambit...but only if I can get the missing Gambit black cover that always eluded me! 😀

PorkBelly

Gambit would still be op.  The constant AP generation was terrible.  OML would be fine & shouldn’t have been nerfed at all.

DAZ0273

blankcanvas said:

I loved pre nerf 3* gambit so hard. He was amazing but totally OP.

That Gambatt team of Spider Gwen and was it Thing? It would give Bishop a run for his money in quick stuns and then that Cherry bomb boom.

ROY84

They made 3* gambit almost as useless as sentry. I understood they had to nerf him but they didn't have to make him completely useless. They overkilled gambit to satisfy some salty SOBs. 

DAZ0273

Yeah, I always thought that one felt almost personal/revenge on the player base! The players had found a crazy exploit which the Devs had completely missed and were killing people with it - it wasn't even as if there was even the slightest chance that the Devs ever intended players to build 0/0/5 characters and I guess they took umbrage! I never got to build my Gambatt in time but he wrecked destruction on the PvP world in his reign of terror...

jamesh

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Changing a damage number is almost certainly trivial, and could almost certainly be done by a designer with little to no engineering support. Manually testing it with all possible edge cases possibly not so much, but it can’t possibly be easier to do a total power replacement than to adjust a variable in a character class.

In the past, character rebalances have been paired up with increased sell-back prices or at the 5* level effective conversion of covers to special 5*-only tokens.  That's going to create a financial hit, especially if the rebalance is intended to nerf the character.

If the community was fine with no compensation for minor character tweaks, then perhaps they'd be more likely to do small tweaks.  But how do you define "minor" here?  Changing a number associated with a power could easily make the difference between "viable" and "bench warmer".