***** Beta Ray Bill (Korbinite Cyborg) *****

Daredevil217

Vhailorx said:

Daredevil217 said:

Vhailorx said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I've got a feeling that 50% Gladiathor/BRB teams are going to be an option. I doubt it'll take any time at all to earn 12 green when you're scooping it up passively every battle start. 

Maybe, but the dirty little secret about Thor's green is that as an active power it's just meh.  And that's also true of BRB.  Add in okoye's black and things look different.  But on their own, I think I might prefer hela's green or even rescue's red for fast, cheap damage fueled by Thor's passive.

And that's without considering okoye's true healing. . .

Here’s an even dirtier secret. Here are the damage per AP spent for the 4 powers you mentioned. 

3281.5

2790.3

2247.8

1928.5

Any guesses on which characters have the highest damage output per AP spent?

3281.5 - Thor Green
2790.3 - BRB Green
2247.8 - Rescue Red
1928.5 - Hela Green

Hardly “meh”. 

This assumes that there are 3 targets that can all absorb ~13k damage.  I would say brb's green is slightly better than Thor's (just active elements) because it is useful in more scenarios.

Also, a few caveats to my statement that I thought were obvious, but clearly aren't.

(1) I explicitly limited my comment to Thor's active green.  His passive green power is arguably the top power in the game, and certainly top 5.

(2) I said that hela/rescue's powers are better for cheap, fast damage.  Thor sure smokes them for damage/AP against a full team of three.  But hela and rescue (and brb too) keep their damage/AP value regardless of the number of opponents, while Thor drops down to just under 1300 against a single target.  And for purposes of efficiently proc'ing okoye, it isn't even close (Thor's green is fine for proc'ing okoye, and since I comes along with his green passive, they are an awesome pairing.  But damage/AP is less important than AP/tick of damage when it comes to proc'ing okoye).

(3) 12ap for 13k aoe damage is pretty good.  But that's still only 1/3-1/5 of a typical 5* health pool.  In a meta that requires speed, high cost nukes that don't end the game outright are not the best options.  Add some additional damage (via strikes from Thor's own yellow, or okoye etc) and thor's green plays much better, but that it outside the scope of my original discussion.

1) No I understood that point perfectly clear. I didn’t mention Thor’s passive at all. 

2) You said “on their own, I think I might prefer hela's green or even rescue's red”. I assume “on their own” means sans Okoye. So I took her out of the equation. If she’s back on the table or you’re talking pick-3 (the only time you can use Thor fueling one of these characters and bring Okoye to increase the “ticks”), then yeah... the cheaper powers are better (but I’d just use Thor and go for other color coverage as a third instead- I.e. Jessica/Doom/Xavier/Iceman). I assume you were talking just Thor fueling these abilities and not having Okoye. 

3) What are high speed nukes that can end the game outright in 5* land? Whales? That’s about it (and it isn’t high speed) The fact that Thor can’t down a team without some Okoye help does not make his AOE (with the best damage per AP) a “meh” power. You talk here about how it’s ONLY 1/3-1/5 of a 5* health pool but in the very beginning talk about how it might be too much damage/overkill for the opponent. Is it too much damage or not enough?

I get your point on diminishing returns as people die. That’s fair. But that’s just how AOE work. They have pros and cons (hitting invisible for example). BrB hitting random enemies when you really want to take out a certain character is a huge con. His ROI goes up as people die where as Thor’s goes down. Both are great powers; you just have to know HOW to use them. 

IceIX

Note:
Bill's Blue has been updated from the preview - It no longer creates 2 tiles per incoming damage taken at level 4, but now deals highly increased damage at levels 4 and 5 and provides larger strength Protect tiles than before.

RickOShay

IceIX said:

Note:
Bill's Blue has been updated from the preview - It no longer creates 2 tiles per incoming damage taken at level 4, but now deals highly increased damage at levels 4 and 5 and provides larger strength Protect tiles than before.

=  we finally play tested him and... Whoa we gotta change that.


And on that note, I think he's improved from before simply due to having more offense.
At Champ level his blue is now 12,278 damage and a strength 557 protect tile.
It's better this way and more fair than it would have been IMO.

randomhero1090

RickOShay said:

IceIX said:

Note:
Bill's Blue has been updated from the preview - It no longer creates 2 tiles per incoming damage taken at level 4, but now deals highly increased damage at levels 4 and 5 and provides larger strength Protect tiles than before.

=  we finally play tested him and... Whoa we gotta change that.


And on that note, I think he's improved from before simply due to having more offense.
At Champ level his blue is now 12,278 damage and a strength 557 protect tile.
It's better this way and more fair than it would have been IMO.

12k damage for 6ap?  Wow.  And it’s still a 4 turn fortified that will create strong defensive tiles.

wymtime

RickOShay said:

wymtime said:

so with Kitty you just run 5,3,5 since on turn 2 you have eliminated match damage.  Blue and green do decent damage.

if Kitty was not in the game I would not mind this character, but with Kitty buffing free tiles to stupid high levels this will be another Rock Paper Scissors team probably with Eddy Brock nullifying protect tiles.

If BRB creates 4 Protect tiles at start, I know I'll lose at least 2 by turn 3..  Sure, match damage against us will be reduced due to the ones we keep, and we will be prioritizing blue to get more protects on the board. 
We'll need to be very careful since the only significant damage we may deal is from his 12 AP green, all while trying to avoid protect tile matches for the most part (yes we earn b & g AP from them but still don't want to lose them).
We'll get some damage from his blue, and hopefully Kitty's red will earn you some attack tiles at some point. No matter how this plays out, we are looking at a 5+ minute match. I think we may get hit faster than we can climb.
----------
Now, when facing against Kitty BRB, match or destroy 1 Protect as soon as possible and Kitty will no longer be buffing since she requires 4 on the board for her buff (unless your 3rd ally is an X-men, then it will require just 3 to buff). It will be hard to deny them blue for very long, but this team is not nearly as scary to face as Gritty itself, or many other combos.
Heck, even 5* Carnage has an advantage over this team (free turn etc) if you can't seem to get their protects matched away quickly. Fun to try 4* Thanos as well. 
Gritty itself destroys a BRB-Kitty team starting on turn 3 or 4 if you can deny them blue, with little fear of taking damage yourself.

If the PvP essential character is good at creating special tiles then yes we have a real problem with BRB-Kitty, otherwise not a big deal. As stated though, in Sim with Gritty & BRB that can be efficient to use and a pain to face.

You are making a simple assumption you can destroy one of the protect tiles right away.  If you go 2 turns without destroying a special tile match damage will be gone.  It is more of an annoyance factor than anything else and causing slow game play.  1/2 health Thor and Okoye should take it out especially since Thor’s red avoids protect tiles.

the issue I have is how it will slow down game play. 

Whispered23

How does the latest legends work? Will he be available right after December 16?

Daredevil217

Daredevil217 said:

Vhailorx said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I've got a feeling that 50% Gladiathor/BRB teams are going to be an option. I doubt it'll take any time at all to earn 12 green when you're scooping it up passively every battle start. 

Maybe, but the dirty little secret about Thor's green is that as an active power it's just meh.  And that's also true of BRB.  Add in okoye's black and things look different.  But on their own, I think I might prefer hela's green or even rescue's red for fast, cheap damage fueled by Thor's passive.

And that's without considering okoye's true healing. . .

Here’s an even dirtier secret. Here are the damage per AP spent for the 4 powers you mentioned. 

3281.5

2790.3

2247.8

1928.5

Any guesses on which characters have the highest damage output per AP spent?

3281.5 - Thor Green
2790.3 - BRB Green
2247.8 - Rescue Red
1928.5 - Hela Green

Hardly “meh”. 

@IceIX looks at Beta Ray Bill’s blue.

”Hold my beer...”

Is this the best active blue in the tier? I think so. You can argue Strange but he’s a glass cannon while Bill here is a two-nuke tank. Blue is an underrepresented color in the tier, and so this switch increases his playability big time with a ton of characters/teams. 

I predict BRBishop will be a defensive meta team in pick two for sure. You’re either stun locked or eating a big nuke, and have to fight through waves of protect tiles while keeping an eye on opponent green. I barely get hit when I run Jessica/Bish (way way less than Gritty). BRBishop will be instaskip I imagine. 

Vhailorx

12k damage for 6 AP is good.  Hawkeye's blue is similarly efficient, but requires cycling through 7 arrows to get there. And BRB produces fairly strong protect tiles out of the bargain too!

This shift pushes him closer to the meta, but will brbishop actually be more reliable than gritty?  Fast offense usually trump's defense in mpq. 

Thanos

Daredevil217 said:

Daredevil217 said:

Vhailorx said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I've got a feeling that 50% Gladiathor/BRB teams are going to be an option. I doubt it'll take any time at all to earn 12 green when you're scooping it up passively every battle start. 

Maybe, but the dirty little secret about Thor's green is that as an active power it's just meh.  And that's also true of BRB.  Add in okoye's black and things look different.  But on their own, I think I might prefer hela's green or even rescue's red for fast, cheap damage fueled by Thor's passive.

And that's without considering okoye's true healing. . .

Here’s an even dirtier secret. Here are the damage per AP spent for the 4 powers you mentioned. 

3281.5

2790.3

2247.8

1928.5

Any guesses on which characters have the highest damage output per AP spent?

3281.5 - Thor Green
2790.3 - BRB Green
2247.8 - Rescue Red
1928.5 - Hela Green

Hardly “meh”. 

@IceIX looks at Beta Ray Bill’s blue.

”Hold my beer...”

Is this the best active blue in the tier? I think so. You can argue Strange but he’s a glass cannon while Bill here is a two-nuke tank. Blue is an underrepresented color in the tier, and so this switch increases his playability big time with a ton of characters/teams. 

I predict BRBishop will be a defensive meta team in pick two for sure. You’re either stun locked or eating a big nuke, and have to fight through waves of protect tiles while keeping an eye on opponent green. I barely get hit when I run Jessica/Bish (way way less than Gritty). BRBishop will be instaskip I imagine. 

Bishop eats protect tiles every turn.

abenness

Thanos said:

Daredevil217 said:

I predict BRBishop will be a defensive meta team in pick two for sure. You’re either stun locked or eating a big nuke, and have to fight through waves of protect tiles while keeping an eye on opponent green. I barely get hit when I run Jessica/Bish (way way less than Gritty). BRBishop will be instaskip I imagine. 

Bishop eats protect tiles every turn.

I was thinking of this earlier as well. Probably still accurate to say that “once you eventually kill Bishop”, you will have multiple protect tiles to get past.

I’m def curious to see how this plays out. BRB countdown puts out a protect every time he or an ally takes damage (multiples from cascades or aoe powers?), and Bishop eats them 2 per turn to gain 2 blue AP (at level 3 yellow, which I imagine is what everybody runs him with).

HoundofShadow

Wouldn't Worthy Hawkeye be better, unless there can only be one Clash of the Worthy countdown tile on the board? I heard stories about how this team gain 30 blue aps on their first or second turn. That's worth 61,390 of damage. Add in Hawkeye's red and it adds up to over 100k of damage.

If BRB's countdown tiles stack, it will churn out 2500 strength of protect tiles per match.

tiomono

HoundofShadow said:

Wouldn't Worthy Hawkeye be better, unless there can only be one Clash of the Worthy countdown tile on the board? I heard stories about how this team gain 30 blue aps on their first or second turn. That's worth 61,390 of damage. Add in Hawkeye's red and it adds up to over 100k of damage.

If BRB's countdown tiles stack, it will churn out 2500 strength of protect tiles per match.

Pretty sure his countdown is just like kitty's. Hers says "while it's on the board" but does not stack. Having one on the board does not stop her from firing again. I assume bill works the same. 

LavaManLee

I haven't done the math but imagine the AOE of BRB with Okoye sporting 20+ TUs would be pretty nice.

randomhero1090

Thanos said:

Daredevil217 said:

Daredevil217 said:

Vhailorx said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I've got a feeling that 50% Gladiathor/BRB teams are going to be an option. I doubt it'll take any time at all to earn 12 green when you're scooping it up passively every battle start. 

Maybe, but the dirty little secret about Thor's green is that as an active power it's just meh.  And that's also true of BRB.  Add in okoye's black and things look different.  But on their own, I think I might prefer hela's green or even rescue's red for fast, cheap damage fueled by Thor's passive.

And that's without considering okoye's true healing. . .

Here’s an even dirtier secret. Here are the damage per AP spent for the 4 powers you mentioned. 

3281.5

2790.3

2247.8

1928.5

Any guesses on which characters have the highest damage output per AP spent?

3281.5 - Thor Green
2790.3 - BRB Green
2247.8 - Rescue Red
1928.5 - Hela Green

Hardly “meh”. 

@IceIX looks at Beta Ray Bill’s blue.

”Hold my beer...”

Is this the best active blue in the tier? I think so. You can argue Strange but he’s a glass cannon while Bill here is a two-nuke tank. Blue is an underrepresented color in the tier, and so this switch increases his playability big time with a ton of characters/teams. 

I predict BRBishop will be a defensive meta team in pick two for sure. You’re either stun locked or eating a big nuke, and have to fight through waves of protect tiles while keeping an eye on opponent green. I barely get hit when I run Jessica/Bish (way way less than Gritty). BRBishop will be instaskip I imagine. 

Bishop eats protect tiles every turn.

Bishop eats protects but also gens blue when he does.  I don't believe there is a "only 1 CD at a time" rule on BRB's blue.  So you could just keep firing and get to a point where you are putting out 3-4 protects per turn, generating blue, etc etc.

I believe this is why they changed his blue.  More damage but the protect spam would get insane.

bluewolf

tiomono said:

HoundofShadow said:

Wouldn't Worthy Hawkeye be better, unless there can only be one Clash of the Worthy countdown tile on the board? I heard stories about how this team gain 30 blue aps on their first or second turn. That's worth 61,390 of damage. Add in Hawkeye's red and it adds up to over 100k of damage.

If BRB's countdown tiles stack, it will churn out 2500 strength of protect tiles per match.

Pretty sure his countdown is just like kitty's. Hers says "while it's on the board" but does not stack. Having one on the board does not stop her from firing again. I assume bill works the same. 

Regardless of that part, gathering enough AP for around 36-48 K dmg in a turn would work great if it was allowed.  Maybe you can't fire his blue again if there's a CD out.

HoundofShadow

BRB is up in game, but it's still showing his "older" ability which churns out two protect tiles?

His updated ability churns out only 1 protect tile at 5 covers, isn't it?

RickOShay

HoundofShadow said:

BRB is up in game, but it's still showing his "older" ability which churns out two protect tiles?

His updated ability churns out only 1 protect tile at 5 covers, isn't it?

We'll soon have this morning's data push, it will probably be updated then.

randomhero1090

bluewolf said:

tiomono said:

HoundofShadow said:

Wouldn't Worthy Hawkeye be better, unless there can only be one Clash of the Worthy countdown tile on the board? I heard stories about how this team gain 30 blue aps on their first or second turn. That's worth 61,390 of damage. Add in Hawkeye's red and it adds up to over 100k of damage.

If BRB's countdown tiles stack, it will churn out 2500 strength of protect tiles per match.

Pretty sure his countdown is just like kitty's. Hers says "while it's on the board" but does not stack. Having one on the board does not stop her from firing again. I assume bill works the same. 

Regardless of that part, gathering enough AP for around 36-48 K dmg in a turn would work great if it was allowed.  Maybe you can't fire his blue again if there's a CD out.

You'd think based on changing his blue to 1 protect you can have multiple CDs going. I could see a massive issue having 3 CDs going at the same time creating 6 total shields per turn.

HoundofShadow

l agree that it will work similar to Kitty's Practiced Offense. Imagine you have 5 of his cd tiles out and the opponent AoE your team. Is it more likely to have 3 protect tiles out or 15 protect tiles out? I should have used this question on myself.

Regardless, those extra damage will allow you to down either one of the many of the baby champed 5*, Bishop or Worthy Cap.

Thanos

Making Capt. Marvel great again! Unfortunately, once they update his blue power this won't be as effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aGOQ7dR2T8