Shards or Bonus Heroes?

13

Comments

  • Chrynos1989
    Chrynos1989 Posts: 603 Critical Contributor
    Why not both?
    Make a shard system that has a 1 or 2% chance of getting a shard jackpot meaning to get enough shards for one cover directly f. e. 300 3* shards

  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Shards
    Tony_Foot said:
    tiomono said:
    Tony_Foot said:
    turbomoose said:
    Have to say I’m quite happy with shards as I’ve finally been able to champ gladiaThor thanks to getting the extra cover for his feeder 


    Which would have happened anyway with BH, just probably for less draws.
    Or it might have taken longer because the color of cover was rng and now it's not. Both systems have pros and cons. 
    Nope he said he got Thor champed from a feeder from a champ reward from a 4 star. Shard system has no relevance.
    Why does it have no relevance? I missed that it was a champ level, but that doesnt change that the rng of bonus heros could have made it take longer than shards.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Shards
    OJSP said:
    tiomono said:
    Tony_Foot said:
    Which would have happened anyway with BH, just probably for less draws.
    the rng of bonus heros could have made it take longer than shards.
    Aren't these the same? One is looking at the glass half full and the other half empty?
    It's the same in that both systems give extra covers. It's different in that bonus heros was percentage based and not equally rewarding for all players. While shards shows steady trackable progress towards the reward that guarantees all players have the same progress.
  • Godzillafan67
    Godzillafan67 Posts: 757 Critical Contributor
    Why not both?
    There's another perspective for BH where the class is completely empty... RNG may have never produced a cover.  :open_mouth:
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Shards
    OJSP said:
    tiomono said:
    OJSP said:
    tiomono said:
    Tony_Foot said:
    Which would have happened anyway with BH, just probably for less draws.
    the rng of bonus heros could have made it take longer than shards.
    Aren't these the same? One is looking at the glass half full and the other half empty?
    It's the same in that both systems give extra covers. It's different in that bonus heros was percentage based and not equally rewarding for all players. While shards shows steady trackable progress towards the reward that guarantees all players have the same progress.
    What I meant was, we never know if it would've been faster or slower with BH. I'm sure Tony also knows your point already, but he chose to view it from another perspective (more positively).

    Both systems have their own benefits and drawbacks. At least the Shard system is not exploitable like the BH system. Now if we can fix the exploit with vaults, then I'll be happy.
    People have really short term memory with bonus heroes.  How many hundreds of posts have there been just on forums about wrong color BH?  "Got my 13th rocket cover from BH!....wrong color.  Why can't we just have colorless covers?"  
    Well, now we do have colorless covers.  It takes a couple extra pulls to get one, but its guaranteed to be something you can use.  I think that's a fair tradeoff.  More than fair.  If you were chasing the 13th cover of a 5 star with a 55x build, you could get a bonus hero earlier than shards (maybe!), but then it's the wrong color.  So you're not at 133.  You're at like 300 or 400 or 500+ sometimes.  Hell, I've gone several hundred pulls without *any* 5 star bonus heroes under the old system.  
    Maybe you beat the odds under the old system.  But I feel like most people just aren't remembering all the flaws of bonus heroes and bad streaks and wrong colors and whatnot, and are just reacting to 133 vs 167 or 23 vs 27 or whatever.  The old ones are odds.  You could beat them, sure.  But most of the time youd break even or do worse than the odds.  Guaranteed useful covers is much much much better IMO.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Shards
    How is BH exploitable? BH is gone anyway. The vault exploit is still unfixed yet?
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Shards
    HoundofShadow said:
    How is BH exploitable? BH is gone anyway. The vault exploit is still unfixed yet?
    People did two different BH exploits using the airplane cheat.  First to guarantee bonus heroes, then to switch bonus heroes if a wrong color dropped so as not to waste the BH.  It's funny cause its definitely cheating but theres lots of people (presumably who also cheat) who will tell you that it's not.  Either way both are gone now. Good riddance 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Shards
    I thought those were patched some time back. That's the reason why pulls are pre-determined? 
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Shards
    OJSP said:
    A_Wise_Man said:
    People have really short term memory with bonus heroes.  How many hundreds of posts have there been just on forums about wrong color BH?  "Got my 13th rocket cover from BH!....wrong color.  Why can't we just have colorless covers?"  
    Well, now we do have colorless covers.
    .....
    Guaranteed useful covers is much much much better IMO.
    You made a valid point about colourless cover(s), especially for 5*s, but it wasn't what they were debating there. I've had many BH covers in colours I've already got 5 in, so I know how that feels.

    I just wanted to ask what's the difference in that particular situation: a player got a Thor cover from a Valkyrie champion reward that they got from accumulating shards. One said they could've got it faster using BH, the other said the RNG could've made it longer. I just think they're the same point, which you've pointed out too that it's about beating the odds. One thought they could, the other couldn't. In this particular scenario, whatever colour they got didn't matter.

    Anyway, I think I was overcomplicating the discussion. The player got the cover they wanted already. Maybe they already made Valkyrie a BH and the cover never came and they were pleased with the Targeted Hero feature because it allowed them to champion Thor.
    Probably yeah.   I can definitely see that.  I've gone very long stretches without the BH so I get it.  That's one of the reasons I like shards so much.
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Shards
    HoundofShadow said:
    I thought those were patched some time back. That's the reason why pulls are pre-determined? 
    One was, the other was not.  It was the folks doing the previewing bit that were doing the second one.  Thankfully, that one is gone now, too.
  • Chrynos1989
    Chrynos1989 Posts: 603 Critical Contributor
    Why not both?
    You honestly have to look at it from a scientific point of view
    in a world without luck and standard deviation, bonus heroes would mean one every 280 pulls (15% chance for 5*= 1 every 7 pulls, 2.5% for bonus heroes on every 5* pull= 1 every 40 5*, 7x40=280), with shards, 280x3=840, means 1.66 covers for 280 pulls
    but in world with luck and standard deviation, this can be better or worse, you can pull 10 LT and get 10 5* with 10 BH, or you can pull 1000LT and don’t get a single one, it’s possible
    so shards just take the luck out of it, and devs already stated, if I read correct, that they would update progression, placement and login rewards with shards and mighty tokens, only vaults were uh-uh until now but let’s see for that
    At least with shards people can stop saying games randomat cheats on them

    what I would sign directly is that shards in shard store are to expensive, 560 and rising for 20 5* shards when you need 500 is ridiculous 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Shards
    That was a surprise to me. At least, BH exploit is dead.

    I think the for and against of BH/Shards are well established now.

    For BH
    - the feeling of lady luck smiling on you
    - better odds than TH (subjective)
    - like to switch bonus hero around instead of putting it on the same character.
    - doesn't mind 5/5/3 + 5 saved covers distribution but dislike 5/5/3 + 300/400 shards distribution
    - fewer taps

    For TH
    - poor luck in getting bonus cover is gone
    - progress are made visible
    - ability to choose colours of covers
    - chances of bad builds are decreased or the ability to finally champ characters with 5/5/2 + 5 covers.

    I might have missed out some but I think these should cover most of the points made.
  • Doomphoenix
    Doomphoenix Posts: 3 Just Dropped In
    Why not both?
    I think that the shards by themselves suck. But bring back bonus heroes and rewarding us with shards then the shards wouldn't be as bad. 
  • Jormagund
    Jormagund Posts: 175 Tile Toppler
    Chrynos1989 said:
    You honestly have to look at it from a scientific point of view
    in a world without luck and standard deviation, bonus heroes would mean one every 280 pulls (15% chance for 5*= 1 every 7 pulls, 2.5% for bonus heroes on every 5* pull= 1 every 40 5*, 7x40=280), with shards, 280x3=840, means 1.66 covers for 280 pulls

    I believe your initial assumption is wrong.  Say you pulled 140 classics/latest under the old rules.  At odds of 1 in 20 you would expect 7 bonus heroes.  Therefore 1 of the 7 assuming an even distribution should be a 5 star.
    Under your model you pull 280 times and expect 14 BH with 1 in 14 being 5 star and 13 in 14 being 4 star.  Clearly at 1 in 7 chance of a 5 star and 6 in 7 chance of a 4 star you'd expect the 14BHs from 280 pulls to give you two 5 stars and 12 4 stars.
    I don't know where you got the 2.5% or 1 in 40 odds from?

    This gives approx one 5 star in 140 pulls under the old system and 1 in 166.66... under the new system.  This makes much more sense than a jump from 1 in 280 down to 1 in 166.  We'd probably all be embracing shards unreservedly if that was the case!
  • Chrynos1989
    Chrynos1989 Posts: 603 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2019
    Why not both?
    GJormagund said:
    Chrynos1989 said:
    You honestly have to look at it from a scientific point of view
    in a world without luck and standard deviation, bonus heroes would mean one every 280 pulls (15% chance for 5*= 1 every 7 pulls, 2.5% for bonus heroes on every 5* pull= 1 every 40 5*, 7x40=280), with shards, 280x3=840, means 1.66 covers for 280 pulls

    I believe your initial assumption is wrong.  Say you pulled 140 classics/latest under the old rules.  At odds of 1 in 20 you would expect 7 bonus heroes.  Therefore 1 of the 7 assuming an even distribution should be a 5 star.
    Under your model you pull 280 times and expect 14 BH with 1 in 14 being 5 star and 13 in 14 being 4 star.  Clearly at 1 in 7 chance of a 5 star and 6 in 7 chance of a 4 star you'd expect the 14BHs from 280 pulls to give you two 5 stars and 12 4 stars.
    I don't know where you got the 2.5% or 1 in 40 odds from?

    This gives approx one 5 star in 140 pulls under the old system and 1 in 166.66... under the new system.  This makes much more sense than a jump from 1 in 280 down to 1 in 166.  We'd probably all be embracing shards unreservedly if that was the case!
    I’m pretty sure the odds for a 5* bonus hero was 1:40 in all stores

    also im only referring too 5*, since that are the ones people wail the most about
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    edited December 2019
    Shards
    Chrynos1989 said:
    GJormagund said:
    Chrynos1989 said:
    You honestly have to look at it from a scientific point of view
    in a world without luck and standard deviation, bonus heroes would mean one every 280 pulls (15% chance for 5*= 1 every 7 pulls, 2.5% for bonus heroes on every 5* pull= 1 every 40 5*, 7x40=280), with shards, 280x3=840, means 1.66 covers for 280 pulls

    I believe your initial assumption is wrong.  Say you pulled 140 classics/latest under the old rules.  At odds of 1 in 20 you would expect 7 bonus heroes.  Therefore 1 of the 7 assuming an even distribution should be a 5 star.
    Under your model you pull 280 times and expect 14 BH with 1 in 14 being 5 star and 13 in 14 being 4 star.  Clearly at 1 in 7 chance of a 5 star and 6 in 7 chance of a 4 star you'd expect the 14BHs from 280 pulls to give you two 5 stars and 12 4 stars.
    I don't know where you got the 2.5% or 1 in 40 odds from?

    This gives approx one 5 star in 140 pulls under the old system and 1 in 166.66... under the new system.  This makes much more sense than a jump from 1 in 280 down to 1 in 166.  We'd probably all be embracing shards unreservedly if that was the case!
    I’m pretty sure the odds for a 5* bonus hero was 1:40 in all stores

    also im only referring too 5*, since that are the ones people wail the most about
    It was 1 in 20 for every pull.  5 stars were 15% of pulls.  That boils down to about 1 in every 133 pulls for a 5 star bonus hero, assuming RNG was good to you.  It's now about 167 pulls for a 5 from shards.  
    While it "feels" bad to need the extra 34 pulls, this ends up being an extra 5 star cover every 670 pulls on average.  If your BH rates were low, it evens out or shards are better.  If your rates were high, maybe you lose more than 1 in 670.  But factor in an unusable color and shards win hands down. 
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,088 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bonus Heroes
    I don’t know about “hands down”.

    I tracked my last 778 pulls from Latests/Classics (excluding pop up stores but I know I’ve gotten BH there too). Under this new system I’d have gotten 2,334 shards or 4.67 covers. 

    How many BH did I actually get? 12. That’s almost 3x as much. Now I know this is incredibly lucky, but my overall 5* pull rates have been below the expected rates. BH were a nice “balance” to that. Now... it’s just more grinding out for what amounts to yet more progression-based awards. Yay?

    I will agree that there are pros and cons to both but I think the overwhelming majority preferring the old method in this poll to the new is due to the fact that while the developers gave us something we asked for (colorless covers), they took away something we didn’t ask them to and in the process created a whole new set of problems. Lower odds, a grindier game, more micromanaging that somehow results in less flexibility 90% of the time (that 10% more flex is with the dreaded 5/5/X 5* build), opening tokens taking twice as long, increased dilution (instead of getting 1 of 90 4* characters you can get pieces of 1 of 90 characters!).

    I think the whole thing was poorly thought out. BUT they can now monetize BH and indirectly sell 5*s directly (figure that one out lol), so there’s that. 
  • Chrynos1989
    Chrynos1989 Posts: 603 Critical Contributor
    Why not both?
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Chrynos1989 said:
    GJormagund said:
    Chrynos1989 said:
    You honestly have to look at it from a scientific point of view
    in a world without luck and standard deviation, bonus heroes would mean one every 280 pulls (15% chance for 5*= 1 every 7 pulls, 2.5% for bonus heroes on every 5* pull= 1 every 40 5*, 7x40=280), with shards, 280x3=840, means 1.66 covers for 280 pulls

    I believe your initial assumption is wrong.  Say you pulled 140 classics/latest under the old rules.  At odds of 1 in 20 you would expect 7 bonus heroes.  Therefore 1 of the 7 assuming an even distribution should be a 5 star.
    Under your model you pull 280 times and expect 14 BH with 1 in 14 being 5 star and 13 in 14 being 4 star.  Clearly at 1 in 7 chance of a 5 star and 6 in 7 chance of a 4 star you'd expect the 14BHs from 280 pulls to give you two 5 stars and 12 4 stars.
    I don't know where you got the 2.5% or 1 in 40 odds from?

    This gives approx one 5 star in 140 pulls under the old system and 1 in 166.66... under the new system.  This makes much more sense than a jump from 1 in 280 down to 1 in 166.  We'd probably all be embracing shards unreservedly if that was the case!
    I’m pretty sure the odds for a 5* bonus hero was 1:40 in all stores

    also im only referring too 5*, since that are the ones people wail the most about
    It was 1 in 20 for every pull.  5 stars were 15% of pulls.  That boils down to about 1 in every 133 pulls for a 5 star bonus hero, assuming RNG was good to you.  It's now about 167 pulls for a 5 from shards.  
    While it "feels" bad to need the extra 34 pulls, this ends up being an extra 5 star cover every 670 pulls on average.  If your BH rates were low, it evens out or shards are better.  If your rates were high, maybe you lose more than 1 in 670.  But factor in an unusable color and shards win hands down. 
    You really sure with 1 in 20? Wow, then my memory is super wrong, then of course BH were much better (in a world without luck and deviation), still I stay with the statement that people can’t complain anymore about randomness of drops being rigged
    Thats the thing with luck, absolutely unpredictable, I mean normal lottery has a chance of 1 in 63.000.000 and still every once and then some luck dude wins the jackpot
  • BuzzedLightbeer
    BuzzedLightbeer Posts: 40 Just Dropped In
    Godzillafan67 said:
    I see no reason why we can't get a sparkly Bonus Shards! with smashing sound effect.
    This is not a bad idea in my mind at all, actually.
  • killahKlown
    killahKlown Posts: 585 Critical Contributor
    Bonus Heroes
    Bonus Heroes

    Blue is my favorite color

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