Shards or Bonus Heroes?

shap328

Why not both?

I voted both, but I think we need to wait and see how they fully implement this with mighty tokens. They've said shards and mighty tokens will be part of progression/placement rewards, so until we see them fully integrated into the game, it's tough to really judge.

As of this point in time, the only think I don't like is that opening non-standards takes forever now.

Vhailorx

Why not both?

shap328 said:

I voted both, but I think we need to wait and see how they fully implement this with mighty tokens. They've said shards and mighty tokens will be part of progression/placement rewards, so until we see them fully integrated into the game, it's tough to really judge.

As of this point in time, the only think I don't like is that opening non-standards takes forever now.

I can't really see either of those systems having a significant impact on shards at the 5* tier, which is where the problem of stranded shards is the most significant. 

There is absolutely no reason we can't have a shards-style system to mitigate rng on top of a bonus heroes solution to encourage resource use.  As currently constituted, shards just promote more lt/cp hoarding than ever.

Omegased

Why not both?

I was truely expecting this to be an addition to bonus heroes, and a dilution solution.
It's clearly not that. 

Is it a good system? Yes
Is my enjoyment of this new system affected because i expected something different, or extra? Also Yes

tiomono

Shards

I like the shards. Knowing exactly how far I need to go before I get what I want is far preferable to a question mark.

If my boss told me I could get a bonus this year, or that I might not, or that it could come tomorrow, I would go crazy and I sure would not plan anything around expecting it. But if he told me if i perform to a certain level and will get a bonus immediately once I reach that goal I have motivation.

Glockoma

Why not both?

It’ll take me almost half a year at the rate I pull LT’s to gather shards. I’ve already scaled back on this game and it seems things just keep on getting further, and further out of reach.

This wasn’t marketed as a replacement program in the beginning; I thought it was a new feature. I feel a little duped, but hey, what’s new?!

just give us some balanced damage/health on 5* characters to adjust the power creep and I’ll be satisfied.

broll

Shards

tiomono said:

I like the shards. Knowing exactly how far I need to go before I get what I want is far preferable to a question mark.

If my boss told me I could get a bonus this year, or that I might not, or that it could come tomorrow, I would go crazy and I sure would not plan anything around expecting it. But if he told me if i perform to a certain level and will get a bonus immediately once I reach that goal I have motivation.

As someone who has an extremely variable bonus I concur that it's frustrating and I'd rather have a static rate.

randomhero1090

Why not both?

BH should still exist considering the number of toons in the game.

Shards should go into a bucket.  Level 3, 4 and 5.  You should be able to use them anywhere you want.  You shouldn't have to worry about balancing out shards.  Shards should be there to help you finish off 5* when pulling LTs because you don't know who you will need the shards for.

Shards should have been an an addition to the game.

rawfsu

Why not both?

If I'm being honest, I want both, but I understand the decision to get rid of Bonus Heroes. I immediately thought about how much it would accelerate rosters if both concepts coexisted. Whales would be at an overwhelming advantage, lower tier players could speed to their progression as well. There would no longer be room for players like myself that are in the middle. I will say, this change has definitely made me less excited about 10 packs knowing a BH will no longer redeem 10 bad pulls.

Twomp_thaDJ

Bonus Heroes

I thought about picking both but I know that wouldn’t happen.. especially with shards coming out they should have just been general and not character specific. 

But the reason I picked bonus heroes was for the fact that I really only use them to make sure that I am able to whatever Shield Training features the new it’s character. If Shield Training didn’t require one of the most recently dropped characters, I could be more for shards.. but in my case it’s pointless because now I won’t open LTs, Heroics, or spend CP til they are in packs and able to gain shards. It just slows everything down now.. 

Mayo

Why not both?

Have you ever bought and incomplete car, meal or product? No? Then why do we have to deal with shards, the incomplete support system should have demonstrated that an incomplete game play system recks havok in an already un balanced game. Btw, why are getting red iso rewards when shards could be assigned right now? 

Both systems should coexist without a problem. If not BH should be the way to go. 

Tucsonjon

Why not both?

I voted both.  I like that the shards are colorless.  If only the BH system was colorless.  I miss and still have anticipation to get the BH when I open.

froggerjohn

Bonus Heroes

Seems like shards are a positive element for the 5star tier, slightly negative for the 4star tier, and a huge step backwards in the 3star tier.

We needed a solution to dilution, but instead of increasing our rewards to match the increased demands, the devs chose to give us even less then what was already inadequate.

I'm sure things will improve as shards make their way into more facets of game rewards, but it's mind-boggling how they didn't learn anything from the failed support rollout.

tiomono

Shards

froggerjohn said:

Seems like shards are a positive element for the 5star tier, slightly negative for the 4star tier, and a huge step backwards in the 3star tier.

We needed a solution to dilution, but instead of increasing our rewards to match the increased demands, the devs chose to give us even less then what was already inadequate.

I'm sure things will improve as shards make their way into more facets of game rewards, but it's mind-boggling how they didn't learn anything from the failed support rollout.

A player in another thread crunched some numbers. 

For elite tokens under bonus heros you would get 1 3* bonus every 80 pulls on average, sometimes better sometimes worse, rng. With targeted heros you get 1 3* bonus every 23.3 pulls guaranteed.

Heroic tokens with bonus hero 3* every 100 pulls average 4* bonus every 320 pulls average. Targeted system 3* every 30 tokens, 4* every 133.3 tokens guaranteed.

Legendary tokens with bonus hero 4* every 23.5 tokens, 5* every 133.3 tokens average. Targeted 4* 26.7 tokens, 5* 167.7 tokens.

So what the numbers show would mean bonus is better by a bit for legendary tokens, and far inferior on heroics and elites. This is a big improvement for newer players growing the 3* tier.

Trilateralus

Why not both?

I think the thing that really bothers me about shards is how it took one of the best features of BH and made it worse. Shards should be general not targeted. If that one change were made I would likely be okay with losing BH, but as it is I find collecting shards to just be frustrating. 

Daredevil217

Bonus Heroes

tiomono said:

A player in another thread crunched some numbers. 

For elite tokens under bonus heros you would get 1 3* bonus every 80 pulls on average, sometimes better sometimes worse, rng. With targeted heros you get 1 3* bonus every 23.3 pulls guaranteed.

Heroic tokens with bonus hero 3* every 100 pulls average 4* bonus every 320 pulls average. Targeted system 3* every 30 tokens, 4* every 133.3 tokens guaranteed.

Legendary tokens with bonus hero 4* every 23.5 tokens, 5* every 133.3 tokens average. Targeted 4* 26.7 tokens, 5* 167.7 tokens.

So what the numbers show would mean bonus is better by a bit for legendary tokens, and far inferior on heroics and elites. This is a big improvement for newer players growing the 3* tier.

This math was already debunked in that very same thread. I wish people would stop spreading this false info. I’m posting the exact text below. 

The TLDR is in terms of net covers distributed, BH > TH in ALL tiers. 

(obviously YMMV per player, but the company is releasing more characters while handing out less covers overall). 

bluewolf said:

Jormagund said:

MadScientist said:

Elite Tokens and Heroic Tokens yield more extra covers under the new system, Legendary Tokens less:

Elite Tokens:

With Bonus Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 80 tokens you open (1:4 to get a 3-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero).

With Target Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 23.3 tokens you open (300 shards / 13 shards gained).

Winner: Target Heroes

Heroic Tokens:

With Bonus Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 100 tokens you open (1:5 to get a 3-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero) and an extra 4-star covery every 320 tokens you open (1:16 to get a 4-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero).

With Target Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 30 tokens you open (300 shards / 10 shards gained) and an extra 4-star cover every 133.3 tokens you open (400 shards / 3 shards gained).

Winner: Target Heroes

Legendary Tokens:

With Bonus Heroes, you get an extra 4-star cover every 23.5 tokens you open (17:20 to get a 4-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero) and an extra 5-star cover every 133.3 tokens you open (3:20 to get a 5-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero).

With Target Heroes, you get an extra 4-star cover every 26.7 tokens you open (400 shards / 15 shards gained) and an extra 5-star cover every 167.7 tokens you open (500 shard / 3 shards gained).

Winner: Bonus Heroes

Therefore, any player who gains "100 Heroic Tokens per week" should love target heroes.

Unfortunately the basic premise is wrong?  For both elite and heroic tokens the pull rate was 1 BH in 20 token draws not 1 BH per 20 eligible draws.

Therefore for elites you are left with a 3*BH approximately every 20 draws.  20 heroic pulls would on average also award a BH with a 16/21 chance of it being a 3* and a 5/21 chance of it being a 4*.  Note: this does assume no weighting other than the stated odds in favour of either 3 or 4* BHs.

If anyone is curious, here is what was posted back when BH's were introduced:

-----

Anthony, Demiurge wrote:

Let's take the Heroic Pack. You have a ~71% chance to get a 2-Star, a ~23% chance to get a 3-Star and a ~6% chance to get a 4-Star. When you open a pack, you have an overall 5% chance to get a Bonus Hero. The way we get to that math is to set the chance to get a Bonus Hero per rarity that you draw. When you draw a 3-Star or 4-Star, you have roughly a 17% chance to get a Bonus Hero. When you multiply the chance to get a cover of that rarity with the chance to get a Bonus Hero, you get the [percent] chance to get a Bonus Hero from any one pull from a Heroic pack (~4% for 3-Stars and ~1% for 4-Stars).

In other words, because 2-Stars don’t have Bonus Heroes available, the Bonus Hero drop rate is actually 17% for 3-Star and 4-Star pulls, and factoring the 2-Stars into the equation is what drops it down to 5%

----

So unfortunately there is no place where TH is a benefit in terms of cover rate from opening tokens. We shall see how things improve via other methods of getting shards when/if rewards are updated.

It's always worth remembering that a lot of what the game is selling is the feeling of progress.  Shards are a way to provide that slow progress in an observable way that keeps you coming back, as long as you feel it is worthwhile.

tiomono

Shards

Daredevil217 said:

tiomono said:

A player in another thread crunched some numbers. 

For elite tokens under bonus heros you would get 1 3* bonus every 80 pulls on average, sometimes better sometimes worse, rng. With targeted heros you get 1 3* bonus every 23.3 pulls guaranteed.

Heroic tokens with bonus hero 3* every 100 pulls average 4* bonus every 320 pulls average. Targeted system 3* every 30 tokens, 4* every 133.3 tokens guaranteed.

Legendary tokens with bonus hero 4* every 23.5 tokens, 5* every 133.3 tokens average. Targeted 4* 26.7 tokens, 5* 167.7 tokens.

So what the numbers show would mean bonus is better by a bit for legendary tokens, and far inferior on heroics and elites. This is a big improvement for newer players growing the 3* tier.

This math was already debunked in that very same thread. I wish people would stop spreading this false info. I’m posting the exact text below. 

The TLDR is in terms of net covers distributed, BH > TH in ALL tiers. 

(obviously YMMV per player, but the company is releasing more characters while handing out less covers overall). 

bluewolf said:

Jormagund said:

MadScientist said:

Elite Tokens and Heroic Tokens yield more extra covers under the new system, Legendary Tokens less:

Elite Tokens:

With Bonus Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 80 tokens you open (1:4 to get a 3-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero).

With Target Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 23.3 tokens you open (300 shards / 13 shards gained).

Winner: Target Heroes

Heroic Tokens:

With Bonus Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 100 tokens you open (1:5 to get a 3-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero) and an extra 4-star covery every 320 tokens you open (1:16 to get a 4-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero).

With Target Heroes, you get an extra 3-star cover every 30 tokens you open (300 shards / 10 shards gained) and an extra 4-star cover every 133.3 tokens you open (400 shards / 3 shards gained).

Winner: Target Heroes

Legendary Tokens:

With Bonus Heroes, you get an extra 4-star cover every 23.5 tokens you open (17:20 to get a 4-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero) and an extra 5-star cover every 133.3 tokens you open (3:20 to get a 5-star cover and 1:20 to get a bonus hero).

With Target Heroes, you get an extra 4-star cover every 26.7 tokens you open (400 shards / 15 shards gained) and an extra 5-star cover every 167.7 tokens you open (500 shard / 3 shards gained).

Winner: Bonus Heroes

Therefore, any player who gains "100 Heroic Tokens per week" should love target heroes.

Unfortunately the basic premise is wrong?  For both elite and heroic tokens the pull rate was 1 BH in 20 token draws not 1 BH per 20 eligible draws.

Therefore for elites you are left with a 3*BH approximately every 20 draws.  20 heroic pulls would on average also award a BH with a 16/21 chance of it being a 3* and a 5/21 chance of it being a 4*.  Note: this does assume no weighting other than the stated odds in favour of either 3 or 4* BHs.

If anyone is curious, here is what was posted back when BH's were introduced:

-----

Anthony, Demiurge wrote:

Let's take the Heroic Pack. You have a ~71% chance to get a 2-Star, a ~23% chance to get a 3-Star and a ~6% chance to get a 4-Star. When you open a pack, you have an overall 5% chance to get a Bonus Hero. The way we get to that math is to set the chance to get a Bonus Hero per rarity that you draw. When you draw a 3-Star or 4-Star, you have roughly a 17% chance to get a Bonus Hero. When you multiply the chance to get a cover of that rarity with the chance to get a Bonus Hero, you get the [percent] chance to get a Bonus Hero from any one pull from a Heroic pack (~4% for 3-Stars and ~1% for 4-Stars).

In other words, because 2-Stars don’t have Bonus Heroes available, the Bonus Hero drop rate is actually 17% for 3-Star and 4-Star pulls, and factoring the 2-Stars into the equation is what drops it down to 5%

----

So unfortunately there is no place where TH is a benefit in terms of cover rate from opening tokens. We shall see how things improve via other methods of getting shards when/if rewards are updated.

It's always worth remembering that a lot of what the game is selling is the feeling of progress.  Shards are a way to provide that slow progress in an observable way that keeps you coming back, as long as you feel it is worthwhile.

My bad. So you open 100 heroics and you get around 1 bonus 4* on average, and 4 3* on every 100 heroics on average?

HoundofShadow

Shards

I think I like shards more. Based on my tracking, the gap between my last 3 4* BH were:

1) 33, 43, 47  Classic store pulls
2) 148, 53 pulls and 3 BH 4* consecutively for LT pulls.

I have gained 2 bh 4* after shards was in. I think they could streamline the shards gained together with the cover gained screen.

turbomoose

Why not both?

Have to say I’m quite happy with shards as I’ve finally been able to champ gladiaThor thanks to getting the extra cover for his feeder 

I had a poor return for 5* bonus heroes but got lots for the 3*s

Jormagund

tiomono said:

My bad. So you open 100 heroics and you get around 1 bonus 4* on average, and 4 3* on every 100 heroics on average?

Yep, that's it.  With shards you are actually earning 3 stars on heroics at a better rate but you have a worse rate for 4 stars.  Also the improvement on 3 stars from heroic is offset by worse rates on the much more frequently earned standard and elite tokens.

Kletvar

Bonus Heroes

Shards are about to be the worst thing made in the last 13-14 months if the devs don't add more options to get them. Shards are the devs' way of saying "F*ck you players, we don't care about you although you are the reason we make for a living". Shards are insulting.