Class of 2013 PVP

Daredevil217

fight4thedream said:

I know that it might seem funny to players who are used to the soft Okoye/Thor meta where basically as long as you denied the opponent team AP you are pretty much guaranteed to win, but I find these kinds of challenges more puzzle-like and interesting. 

Going into a battle not certain of victory, having to consider the board layout and the possible risks of a move, trying to find the best strategy by considering your opponent team's strengths and weaknesses and a bit of luck I think puts both the "puzzle" and the "quest" back into MPQ in my humble opinion.

If you are interested in developing a strong defensive team, then you really should focus on building up your Bishop. Although I have heard reports that Worthy Cap, 5* Hawkeye and JJ are quite the headache on defense, I think in general Kitty/Grocket/Bishop are the current best defensive team, with the possible exception of high level Okoye/Dr. Strange/Bishop team but not as many players are running around with that team. 

Another solid partner for Bishop in the 4* realm would Peggy since she increases AP costs, there is a stronger likelihood that your Bishop will stun the opponent Bishop. The only issue is if he can survive long enough to stun Kitty next. A good 5* partner would be 5* Thor but it seems you have intentionally left yours under-leveled to take advantage of Okoye/Thor Deluxe meta to save health packs. Although to be honest, your Thor probably isn't at a high enough level to carry that team. 

Besides Bishop, Worthy Cap has quite a bit of potential.  I had a lot of fun in Worthy Cap PvP running him, Bishop, and 5* Thor together. If my Worthy Cap had more levels, I would definitely give it a go against Kitty/Bishop/Gritty just to see how it stacked up. Not sure it would be effective at all, but worth seeing how things turned out. 

BSSM and 5* Thor are quite effective against Kitty/Grocket teams in normal PvP events but against teams running Bishop/Grocket/Kitty I don't recommend using BSSM unless you have a viable Surfer since I am pretty sure (although please correct me if I am wrong) that BSSM's strike reduction is rendered inactive when he is stunned. 5* Thor/Surfer/BSSM usually don't have much difficulty handling that match up as long as you can keep BSSM from getting stunned. 

Once you get that final BSSM cover, you should be ok against Kitty/Grocket teams in normal PvP although you still need to be careful against higher level Kittys. You have to make sure she doesn't get yellow otherwise you might end up with a long drawn out match. Additionally with your Thor being under-leveled you are reducing the effectiveness of that team. His red actually ignores protect tiles but once she has your team doing only -1 damage I doubt 11K will be enough to down a 470+ Kitty as fast as you would like.  

While your roster definitely has a lot of room to grow, I think you have enough options that you should be able to successfully reach 1200. But as stated before, with the PvP meta being what it is, you are going to have to study up a bit or simply get lucky with your timing. 

It's not about relying on the Thorkoye meta, as I'm so sick of that team that I tend to instead put together other random combos for fun.  Check the "recent fun teams" thread and you will see all sorts of 5* combos I've played around with.  I don't appreciate when people boil the Bishop debate down to "people just want to keep only using Thorkoye" or "people don't want to use packs", because it's a pretty big misrepresentation.  While that may be some people's experience I don't know that I've heard anyone actually say that in any of the posts I've read.

5* Hawkeye is at 3 covers and worthy Cap at 9 (as I'm sure you know, having looked at my roster), so they're out.  And you're right about my choice to softcap Thor. 

I don't particularly need help with Gritty.  I hit every Gritty I see, even high ones.  In those instances I DO rely on Thorkoye pretty much exclusively as they are a great counter.  I'll probably start using Murdock/Spidey just to break up the monotony soon.  But the point is that without Bishop in the mix, they are easy to dispose of.  I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who feels that, because I get WAY more hits using Gritty than I do Bishop/Jess.  Thor being under-leveled has never been a problem on offense. Defense is probably another story.  But as you know, unless in the 500s, Thorkoye is getting hit with impunity regardless (and sometimes even in the 500s).  So knowing that my Thorkoye will be smacked regardless on D, I am leaving myself Thorkoye deluxe on offense. 11k damage isn't enough to down big Kitty, but it is when fueled by Okoye.

I agree that building up my own Bishop and becoming a bigger part of the problem (that last part is my words, not yours) is absolutely my best defensive option.  But given that will take a TON of time, right now, in anniversary SIM my options are to keep playing Gritshop so they stay on defense, or use one of your counter teams which would no longer allow me to leave Gritshop on defense and perhaps do more harm that good losing the scarecrow. 

ThaRoadWarrior

I've gone up against a few unchamped, but functional after boosted Worthy Cap/Jessica/Hawkeye teams, and man, that team works (against my roster).

acescracked

tiomono said:

acescracked said:

Daredevil217 said:

Well... I Bishoped my way to around 1100 and couldn’t get further because everyone else is Bishoping as well. Not taking on that suicide mission. Sorry to the guy I double tapped for 15 points... working as intended. Sorry to all the low level rosters I beat on for 9 points each because they didn’t have Bishop... working as intended. Sorry to the two people who took defensive losses... working as intended. Congrats to the two people who beat me (2-2 overall on D). Weird just floating around in the last 6 hours skipping and skipping, not getting hit (aside from the above mentioned 4 times) despite being the only unshielded person in the top twenty. Working as intended I’m sure. Anyway, I’m shielding out. Tired of scrolling through an endless sea of either 4 point 4* rosters or Bishop teams. I don’t think I’m going to get that 1200 points. Ah well. 

Bring on 2014 Sim!

Hmmm, I beat on all the bishop teams to 1348 points.

I didn't think I was so great at this game since obviously you wouldn't use hyperbole like "suicide mission" unless it was true.
Edit- which slice you going for in class of 2014? I'll happily increase your hit total.

#savebishop

Are you willing to share your strategy? Seems most people dont know how or aren't willing to try beating bishop. I also sat unshielded in slice 1.1 974 points 18th place. I had 3 or 4 defensive losses the whole event, not a single shield used. It was players with a 30 to 40 level advantage over my kitty that were beating me.

Of course. I posted one team strategy in one of these bishop threads but there's so many can't find it.

So gritty/bishop - (and yes I know not everyone has this team) bssm/5* DD/bishop which is super fast since you let kitty pump strikes and fire DD purple that steals them. *Try to match red first* and actually kill kitty last. gritty/medusa works also. Mirror match of course works. I haven't tried but I've gotten reds with Thanos/gritty.

okoyoe/strange/bishop - mirror or I know I've used thor/okoyoe/strange (boost blue ap, got so much iso) but easier to use your own bishop.

Yes, bishop teams are tough and require you to look away from the TV while your playing are not auto-win but isn't that good? I was in S1 floated and then began my final climb with 4 hours left. Got to 1198 would of hit 1200+ but got a 55 point red hit. Skipping one node noticed not alot of Qs out (I still had two good Qs) so I used a 3 hour. With an hour or so left hit two bishop/gritty teams. Mirrored of first match, bssm/dd/bishop second. Then 8 hour and finish 1328 (typo-ed 1348 earlier) & 7th in CL9. 

acescracked

jp1 said:

I find it interesting that Line collusion, cupcake teams, and coordinated sniping are not viewed as “unfair” or “cheating”. 

I realize there isn’t much the Devs could do about it. However, it speaks volumes when people who think certain aspects are broken or unfair are taking total advantage of others.

Strange post. I'm assuming your saying that's how I got to 1300.

I was in S1 and wasn't in a coordination room and hit *all* A teams. Purposefully went S1 to play on my own for fun.  
Full disclosure, I am friendly with Django's and check them but they were all above me when I climbed and weren't active when I was.

bluewolf

I also have to say:

People who are upset about coordination - I get that.

But cooperating with other players - guess what?  It's pretty fun, builds the community, creates connections.  Some of it is about chasing points, but there's also a social aspect that you goes along with it.

I used to think it sucked too.  I used to get mad about it.  Now I use it and have more fun playing this silly game.

BigSoftieFF

bluewolf said:

I also have to say:

People who are upset about coordination - I get that.

But cooperating with other players - guess what?  It's pretty fun, builds the community, creates connections.  Some of it is about chasing points, but there's also a social aspect that you goes along with it.

I used to think it sucked too.  I used to get mad about it.  Now I use it and have more fun playing this silly game.

Yep, fully agree. The people I’ve met playing in BC rooms are far more important than “building points”

I honestly believe the game would be in trouble without that portion of the community.

Waddles_Pines

bluewolf said:

I also have to say:

People who are upset about coordination - I get that.

But cooperating with other players - guess what?  It's pretty fun, builds the community, creates connections.  Some of it is about chasing points, but there's also a social aspect that you goes along with it.

I used to think it sucked too.  I used to get mad about it.  Now I use it and have more fun playing this silly game.

I have no problems with coordination either.  I don't do it, but more power to those that do. Unless the mechanics have changed over the years (other than them eliminating cupcakes years ago), coordination actually enables people who don't coordinate to get higher match values.  Yeah, once you get past your float/break point you're going to get shellaced, but on average you're facing less matches to get to that point than if there was no coordination.  I think part of the issue <puts flame retardant gear on> is that a lot of people (not everyone) think that all rewards should be attainable regardless of roster size/strength.  If you disagree, no worries, it's just my two cents...

tiomono

acescracked said:

tiomono said:

acescracked said:

Daredevil217 said:

Well... I Bishoped my way to around 1100 and couldn’t get further because everyone else is Bishoping as well. Not taking on that suicide mission. Sorry to the guy I double tapped for 15 points... working as intended. Sorry to all the low level rosters I beat on for 9 points each because they didn’t have Bishop... working as intended. Sorry to the two people who took defensive losses... working as intended. Congrats to the two people who beat me (2-2 overall on D). Weird just floating around in the last 6 hours skipping and skipping, not getting hit (aside from the above mentioned 4 times) despite being the only unshielded person in the top twenty. Working as intended I’m sure. Anyway, I’m shielding out. Tired of scrolling through an endless sea of either 4 point 4* rosters or Bishop teams. I don’t think I’m going to get that 1200 points. Ah well. 

Bring on 2014 Sim!

Hmmm, I beat on all the bishop teams to 1348 points.

I didn't think I was so great at this game since obviously you wouldn't use hyperbole like "suicide mission" unless it was true.
Edit- which slice you going for in class of 2014? I'll happily increase your hit total.

#savebishop

Are you willing to share your strategy? Seems most people dont know how or aren't willing to try beating bishop. I also sat unshielded in slice 1.1 974 points 18th place. I had 3 or 4 defensive losses the whole event, not a single shield used. It was players with a 30 to 40 level advantage over my kitty that were beating me.

Of course. I posted one team strategy in one of these bishop threads but there's so many can't find it.

So gritty/bishop - (and yes I know not everyone has this team) bssm/5* DD/bishop which is super fast since you let kitty pump strikes and fire DD purple that steals them. *Try to match red first* and actually kill kitty last. gritty/medusa works also. Mirror match of course works. I haven't tried but I've gotten reds with Thanos/gritty.

okoyoe/strange/bishop - mirror or I know I've used thor/okoyoe/strange (boost blue ap, got so much iso) but easier to use your own bishop.

Yes, bishop teams are tough and require you to look away from the TV while your playing are not auto-win but isn't that good? I was in S1 floated and then began my final climb with 4 hours left. Got to 1198 would of hit 1200+ but got a 55 point red hit. Skipping one node noticed not alot of Qs out (I still had two good Qs) so I used a 3 hour. With an hour or so left hit two bishop/gritty teams. Mirrored of first match, bssm/dd/bishop second. Then 8 hour and finish 1328 (typo-ed 1348 earlier) & 7th in CL9. 

I have actually tried bssm, bishop, vulture vs gritty, bishop. You will lose bishop but once vulture is online nobody is touching bssm or vulture. Vulture feeds blue and green to keep stuns flying from bssm. As long as someone on the other team is stunned and you can collect black your good.

I have not figured out worthy cap Hawkeye yet. You almost need a lucky cascade to knock cap out early 

jp1

acescracked said:

jp1 said:

I find it interesting that Line collusion, cupcake teams, and coordinated sniping are not viewed as “unfair” or “cheating”. 

I realize there isn’t much the Devs could do about it. However, it speaks volumes when people who think certain aspects are broken or unfair are taking total advantage of others.

Strange post. I'm assuming your saying that's how I got to 1300.

I was in S1 and wasn't in a coordination room and hit *all* A teams. Purposefully went S1 to play on my own for fun.  
Full disclosure, I am friendly with Django's and check them but they were all above me when I climbed and weren't active when I was.

I’m not sure why you assumed this was pointed at you, or anyone in particular.

Just an observation. 

jp1

bluewolf said:

I also have to say:

People who are upset about coordination - I get that.

But cooperating with other players - guess what?  It's pretty fun, builds the community, creates connections.  Some of it is about chasing points, but there's also a social aspect that you goes along with it.

I used to think it sucked too.  I used to get mad about it.  Now I use it and have more fun playing this silly game.

To each their own. I’m not mad about it at all, I just don’t agree with it. It isn’t a condemnation of those who do.

It’s cliquish which isn’t my thing is all.

fight4thedream

Daredevil217 said:

fight4thedream said:

I know that it might seem funny to players who are used to the soft Okoye/Thor meta where basically as long as you denied the opponent team AP you are pretty much guaranteed to win, but I find these kinds of challenges more puzzle-like and interesting. 

Going into a battle not certain of victory, having to consider the board layout and the possible risks of a move, trying to find the best strategy by considering your opponent team's strengths and weaknesses and a bit of luck I think puts both the "puzzle" and the "quest" back into MPQ in my humble opinion.

If you are interested in developing a strong defensive team, then you really should focus on building up your Bishop. Although I have heard reports that Worthy Cap, 5* Hawkeye and JJ are quite the headache on defense, I think in general Kitty/Grocket/Bishop are the current best defensive team, with the possible exception of high level Okoye/Dr. Strange/Bishop team but not as many players are running around with that team. 

Another solid partner for Bishop in the 4* realm would Peggy since she increases AP costs, there is a stronger likelihood that your Bishop will stun the opponent Bishop. The only issue is if he can survive long enough to stun Kitty next. A good 5* partner would be 5* Thor but it seems you have intentionally left yours under-leveled to take advantage of Okoye/Thor Deluxe meta to save health packs. Although to be honest, your Thor probably isn't at a high enough level to carry that team. 

Besides Bishop, Worthy Cap has quite a bit of potential.  I had a lot of fun in Worthy Cap PvP running him, Bishop, and 5* Thor together. If my Worthy Cap had more levels, I would definitely give it a go against Kitty/Bishop/Gritty just to see how it stacked up. Not sure it would be effective at all, but worth seeing how things turned out. 

BSSM and 5* Thor are quite effective against Kitty/Grocket teams in normal PvP events but against teams running Bishop/Grocket/Kitty I don't recommend using BSSM unless you have a viable Surfer since I am pretty sure (although please correct me if I am wrong) that BSSM's strike reduction is rendered inactive when he is stunned. 5* Thor/Surfer/BSSM usually don't have much difficulty handling that match up as long as you can keep BSSM from getting stunned. 

Once you get that final BSSM cover, you should be ok against Kitty/Grocket teams in normal PvP although you still need to be careful against higher level Kittys. You have to make sure she doesn't get yellow otherwise you might end up with a long drawn out match. Additionally with your Thor being under-leveled you are reducing the effectiveness of that team. His red actually ignores protect tiles but once she has your team doing only -1 damage I doubt 11K will be enough to down a 470+ Kitty as fast as you would like.  

While your roster definitely has a lot of room to grow, I think you have enough options that you should be able to successfully reach 1200. But as stated before, with the PvP meta being what it is, you are going to have to study up a bit or simply get lucky with your timing. 

It's not about relying on the Thorkoye meta, as I'm so sick of that team that I tend to instead put together other random combos for fun.  Check the "recent fun teams" thread and you will see all sorts of 5* combos I've played around with.  I don't appreciate when people boil the Bishop debate down to "people just want to keep only using Thorkoye" or "people don't want to use packs", because it's a pretty big misrepresentation.  While that may be some people's experience I don't know that I've heard anyone actually say that in any of the posts I've read.

5* Hawkeye is at 3 covers and worthy Cap at 9 (as I'm sure you know, having looked at my roster), so they're out.  And you're right about my choice to softcap Thor. 

I don't particularly need help with Gritty.  I hit every Gritty I see, even high ones.  In those instances I DO rely on Thorkoye pretty much exclusively as they are a great counter.  I'll probably start using Murdock/Spidey just to break up the monotony soon.  But the point is that without Bishop in the mix, they are easy to dispose of.  I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who feels that, because I get WAY more hits using Gritty than I do Bishop/Jess.  Thor being under-leveled has never been a problem on offense. Defense is probably another story.  But as you know, unless in the 500s, Thorkoye is getting hit with impunity regardless (and sometimes even in the 500s).  So knowing that my Thorkoye will be smacked regardless on D, I am leaving myself Thorkoye deluxe on offense. 11k damage isn't enough to down big Kitty, but it is when fueled by Okoye.

I agree that building up my own Bishop and becoming a bigger part of the problem (that last part is my words, not yours) is absolutely my best defensive option.  But given that will take a TON of time, right now, in anniversary SIM my options are to keep playing Gritshop so they stay on defense, or use one of your counter teams which would no longer allow me to leave Gritshop on defense and perhaps do more harm that good losing the scarecrow. 

You misunderstand me. The soft Okoye/Thor meta doesn't simply refer to the Okoye/Thor combo but the whole culture it supports. A meta where the strongest offensive team is considerably weak on defense allows players to use a variety of combos without much fuss. With certain notable exceptions, as long as a player is either able to: a.) tank hits (using true heal characters) or b.) deny the enemy team AP  (Worthy Cap, God Emperor Doom) or delay the opponent (stun), the player can expect to be successful most of the time. If you're interested, I go into more detail about the pros and cons of such a meta in the A discussion of the current meta thread (specifically page 3).

I have checked the "recent fun teams" thread and you have stated repeatedly that true healing is one of your favorite mechanics. Okoye/Thor is still very much an offensive powerhouse even if you are not running the Deluxe version. The main difference being it's not as efficient and Thor is more inclined to take damage. But you have my apologies, it was not my place to assume your motivations for intentionally keeping your Thor under-leveled. 

Honestly speaking, if you are using that team to deal with Kitty/Grocket teams than your current setup is best. 

I think your best strategy for events like Class of 2013 PvP (and S.H.I.E.L.D. Sim) would simply be to climb using your DD/Doom team or whatever team that you want to climb with and once you hit start encountering Bishop/Gritty/Grocket teams (in my MMR that was around 900), to switch out to your own Bishop/Gritty/Grocket and climb to 1100. If you can reach 1140 and can line up a couple of Gritty/Grocket/Bishop teams worth over 30 points that your Thanos/Black Panther/Bishop can handle, than switch to that team.

Barring any mishaps where your Thanos is stunned when Bishop is downed, the match should go fairly quickly so you should have enough time to do at least 2 matches and hit 1200 before taking on hits. You can then switch back to Gritty/Bishop/Rocket if you want to keep a scarecrow out. 

If you are worried about there not being any easy teams for you to make the switch then simply save an easy team you encounter during your climb in one of your nodes. 

There is also shield hopping. If you find yourself close 1200 but no high Qs are out, it means you are one of the highest Q which increases the likelihood you will get hit. 

There are various tools and knowledge at your disposal. Your ability to reach 1200 has more to do with your willingness to take risks and fully utilize the resources and knowledge that you have than it does with anything inherently wrong with the game. Don't misunderstand me, PvP is far from perfect. I would definitely prefer a system that didn't allow point and bracket manipulation through multi-alliance cooperation. But I doubt the system will change so I have made it a point to learn the ins-and-outs of the slice I play in. 

As I previously stated, the main issue with events like this one is the lack of requiring a character that supposedly the event is celebrating. Hopefully, it' something they consider the next time it is run.

But my main issue with your initial post was that you tried to paint your inability to reach 1200 to a specific perceived problem, Bishop, when there were more significant factors at play. 

And finally a question, from a game design standpoint: Shouldn't the final progression goal in PvP be somewhat challenging? I understand the reality of the situation differs for each player but I don't think the dev team intended for 1200 to be something just anyone could tap dance their way to. 

dkffiv

Daredevil217 said:

Bowgentle said:

Yeah, it basically boils down to "know your slice".

And you can argue that’s my problem. 

I don’t know the players in my slice. I don’t know their habits. I don’t check leaderboards. I don’t check the names of the people I hit. I don’t care about waves (actually just heard of this term now). I still don’t know the difference between a “grill” and a “cupcake”.  I play in different slices and at different times randomly. I want to just play the game without studying player habits and leaderboards...

So yeah, you can say the fact that I don’t play the meta game within the game is my problem, and I’ll say that’s probably fair. I think it’s a shame that that is just accepted as part of hitting max PROGRESSION (not placement) and the problem is with the player (me) unwilling to do that, and not the game itself.

You aren't meant to hit max progression without shields and coordination (other than going for 75 wins).

Assuming no one wipes, every match between players under 1000 in regular pvp generates points for the shard.  You may lose 40 points from getting hit but the other person gained 60.  If 2 players constantly hit each other they will eventually reach 1k.  

To go from 1k to 1.2k players either need to coordinate shields (so points aren't lost on hits) or pummel weaker teams (Class of 2013 I hit 4* teams for 5 points each to go from 1k to 1160).  Those 30 wins worth of points could be knocked out in 2 matches by players with weaker rosters.  There are also players who intentionally forfeit matches to drain points from the shard since the devs reduced the points from defensive wins because they were afraid players were exploiting it.

Daredevil217

fight4thedream said:

You misunderstand me. The soft Okoye/Thor meta doesn't simply refer to the Okoye/Thor combo but the whole culture it supports. A meta where the strongest offensive team is considerably weak on defense allows players to use a variety of combos without much fuss.

Yeah I personally do prefer a meta where I can play Cable/Daredevil; Doom/Loki, Hela/Kitty, Professor/Storm, or any of my other 5* champs and have a reasonable chance of winning. I get seemingly everyone was playing Thorkoye exclusively, but I wasn’t. A meta where I have to play some brokenness or a specific counter team, while fun characters like the aforementioned rot on the bench, is not particularly fun for me. Ideally everyone would be more or less balanced and we could play whatever. But since that is not the case, I do prefer a meta where at least I can play whatever.  I can’t bring most my roster to a Gritshop fight and so it sucks when everyone is playing Gritshop. Oh well. It honestly is what it is. I’ll keep playing, as I still enjoy the game, but this is easily the least fun the game has been for me. MUCH of my joy comes from fun team combos that utilize much of my roster. But unfortunately my newly champed Storm can not compete in a sea of Bishops. 

The saddest part is I have Bish champed myself and exploit the heck out of him, but my 3-cover Hawkeye means that for the first time, I’ll actually  not have the new meta (HawCap) and have to suffer without at least getting to exploit the cheese myself.

Welforj1

I really don't understand the point of this event its no different to any other PVP I've played meet 3 x 5* characters bish bash boss tit for tat boredom. No skill involved jjust more boost. I haven’t met a team yet that has embraced the spirit of the event. Something different really should be done. 

shardwick

.

Welforj1 said:

I really don't understand the point of this event its no different to any other PVP I've played meet 3 x 5* characters bish bash boss tit for tat boredom. No skill involved jjust more boost. I haven’t met a team yet that has embraced the spirit of the event. Something different really should be done. 

I used Wolvie a couple times to start but ultimately got bored of always trying to set up his black. So then I changed up my team and used the 4* variant of Juggs.

KGB

Welforj1 said:

I really don't understand the point of this event its no different to any other PVP I've played meet 3 x 5* characters bish bash boss tit for tat boredom. No skill involved jjust more boost. I haven’t met a team yet that has embraced the spirit of the event. Something different really should be done. 

That's probably because you are in 5* land and there were no 5* characters released in 2013 (or 14).

As a 4* player I am seeing plenty of teams of just boosted 3* or 2 boosted 3* + 4* Wolvie and managed to climb all the way to 900 essentially fighting those teams since they are the same levels as my unboosted 4* characters.

It's a shame that MMR and the game can't figure out a way to allow 5* rosters to see lower teams by locking out over powered characters in the selection screen (ie if an enemy team is just averaging L270 then you should be able to select a team of L300 and under and fight them with all L300+ characters locked out).

KGB

jredd

not sure how it would work out, but being an off-season event they should have limited the available characters to the 2013 crop. i don't think i used any of them for the event.

Welforj1

Idea! Introduce a handicap for not using the essential characters for the event. Might even up playing fields?