Wakanda Forever! How does it even work?

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  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,779 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    KGB said:
    RoadWarrior,

    The real question you want to ask is what is the damage type for every power in MPQ (good luck getting that answer from the hundreds of powers other than experimentation). Obviously powers like 2* Mags Blue is typed as Match and his 2* Red is typed as Power.
    It's a very frustrating situation as a player to be sure. The daily grind is such a chore without force multipliers, so if somebody doesn't synergize with or pull the teeth out of either Okoye or Kitty, I'm not super interested in them anymore. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,779 Chairperson of the Boards
    KGB said:
    Reecoh, does her trap damage get applied separately (ie match then trap) or as a single value (likely need strike tiles to figure that answer). If it's separate then it's consistent that tile=Match and trap=power but if it's a single value then it would mean the damage type changed during the damage evaluation due to the trap being there.

    KGB
    JJ's traps technically belong to the enemy, which may be part of their distinction. I imagine this is comparable to 4* Carol's retaliation damage - it probably does a seperate chunk of "trap" damage after it resolves the player's match.
  • Mrcl25
    Mrcl25 Posts: 99 Match Maker
    2* Black Widow black (espionage) seems to be a similar power and is boosted by Okoye's Wakanda Forever. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,779 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    There are a lot of powers on the list that seem to have the tile destruction decoupled from the damage either by bug or design. The wording is not appreciably different on them. For instance Bucky’s purple worded about the same as kitty’s purple. His gets bonus damage, hers does not. Which is the bug? Circuit Breaker appears to have the distinction of the tile “destroying itself” as opposed to Bucky destroying the tile. Which is all well and good, except Entanglement and similar tiles that seem to own their own damage get to take advantage of WF for some reason.

    bringing us back to Juggernaut- does his blue power take advantage of Wakanda Forever?
  • Reecoh
    Reecoh Posts: 210 Tile Toppler
    edited August 2019
    KGB said:
    Reecoh, does her trap damage get applied separately (ie match then trap) or as a single value (likely need strike tiles to figure that answer). If it's separate then it's consistent that tile=Match and trap=power but if it's a single value then it would mean the damage type changed during the damage evaluation due to the trap being there.

    KGB
    JJ's traps technically belong to the enemy, which may be part of their distinction. I imagine this is comparable to 4* Carol's retaliation damage - it probably does a seperate chunk of "trap" damage after it resolves the player's match.
    I'm pretty sure the damage is applied in one go, but I'll have to look closely next time to be sure. I can't recall ever getting a two-for-one.

    Edit: It is definitely a single application of damage.
  • JSP869
    JSP869 Posts: 799 Critical Contributor
    I too am in industry, I am very familiar with how games are made and generally work. That’s why I made sure to say: if the problem is too hard to fix in code, it’s understandable, but the text in game should accurately describe what is happening. This isn’t a dynamic UI scenario like with Bamf!, this is a static text string.

    at any rate, I don’t know how the game actually is coded, just how I would expect things to work based on the power wording. So I’m sorry for being contrary with you here, I’d just like things to work like they are described or for descriptions to describe how things work lol. 
    2 years ago I made a post about the effects of Riri's Magnetic Repulsors not resolving in the order they're listed in the game: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/66749/riris-magnetic-repulsors-effects-do-not-resolve-as-written

    2 years ago. August 1, 2017.

    It has never been acknowledged as a bug in the "Bug Status List".

    To hopefully bring a speedy resolution to this problem I rewrote the text to accurately reflect the correct order in which Magnetic Repulsors' effects resolve, I posted the correct text the same day, reposted it again two months later, and have posted it on various other posts where this has been brought up.

    A simple copy & paste into the game's code would fix this. 1-2 minutes work, if that.

    To this day, that has not happened, and Magnetic Repulsors effects continue to resolve in the incorrect order.
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 1,972 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    There are a lot of powers on the list that seem to have the tile destruction decoupled from the damage either by bug or design. The wording is not appreciably different on them. For instance Bucky’s purple worded about the same as kitty’s purple. His gets bonus damage, hers does not. Which is the bug? Circuit Breaker appears to have the distinction of the tile “destroying itself” as opposed to Bucky destroying the tile. Which is all well and good, except Entanglement and similar tiles that seem to own their own damage get to take advantage of WF for some reason.

    bringing us back to Juggernaut- does his blue power take advantage of Wakanda Forever?
    About the same isn't exactly the same.

    Buckys: "Select a basic tile. Winter Soldier destroys that tile, dealing 176 damage and stealing 2 enemy AP of that color"
    Kittys: "If no enemy Strike, Attack, or Protect tiles are on the board, this tile destroys itself and deals 2928 damage."

    Note the bolded text. Bucky's power damage comes from Winter Soldier (power damage). Kittys power damage comes from the tile destroying itself (tile damage). I realize it's semantics but as any lawyer will tell you, semantics are what matters. The way I read those descriptions both are working as designed and there is no bug.


    JSP869,

    I never noticed that about Riri's Blue. I mean I know the order the damage happens but I never read the description closely enough to realize it doesn't match what happens. It's clearly a description error and not a resolve out of order error.

    But as I mentioned earlier in the thread, the 2 minute copy/paste has to be done in every language (so all the translations have to be checked for consistency). So it's more than 2 minutes worth and definitely going to cost money to get translators time for all the languages. Still, I wish they would just do a whole bunch of language fixes all at once (say 2x a year) to save costs of translating ad hoc.

    KGB


  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,779 Chairperson of the Boards
    So now we have introduced the concept of damage ownership into the mix. I don’t see Circuit Breaker being different from a player perspective to Entanglement. That is a CD that does it’s own damage, and it conspicuously does benefit from WF (in fact it was made to do so specifically as part of Patch 154). Per the patch note, you absolutely would expect CB to benefit from WF, would you not?
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 1,972 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    I don't think it's ownership. It's hard to explain in text (vs talking in person).

    I read Bucky's power as Bucky destroys the tile (which does 0 tile damage) from a shot and shot itself deals 176 damage as power damage. It's not ownership as much as it's just power damage and not tile damage since it's the shot that deals the damage.

    I read Kittys power as the damage comes from the tile being destroyed (destroys itself). So it's tile damage.

    Looking at Entanglement: Every turn, if one does not exist, create a 2-turn Countdown tile that deals 83 damage every turn.

    I read Medusas power as the damage comes from the act of the CD ticking down. It's not a tile being destroyed or matched so it's not tile damage. Thus its power damage from the CD timer and why when it hits 0 you get no damage for that turn (note that when Kittys CD ticks down there is no actual damage, it just moves to another special tile on 0. It's only when it finds no more specials to move to that it causes the tile to destroy itself).

    KGB

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,779 Chairperson of the Boards
    If they are making the distinction here that Circuit Breaker is not itself a power that destroys tiles, the tile CREATED BY circuit breaker is what is breaking a tile and doing additional damage, I think that is a bit of garbage, personally. That is no different than Entanglement, where it's a power that creates a countdown tile, then that tile emits some damage.  It's clear there was some sort of issue with that for a bit, because Entanglement was explicitly enabled to work with WF as part of the R154 patch noes. Not that Kitty needs to be any stronger than she is, just that the public facing descriptions of these powers indicate that it should receive the benefit of Wakanda Forever. 

    So i hear what you're saying about how the damage is being classed leading to it not working. What I'm suggesting is that these edge case powers are bugs that need to be fixed - whether that takes the form of the damage being totaled correctly and WF working with them, or that takes the form of changes to the power descriptions such that it is clear they don't work with it.
  • AXP_isme
    AXP_isme Posts: 809 Critical Contributor
    The fact that there are multi-year vets on the forums who don’t understand when WF should trigger and when it shouldn’t is a good indicator that the power wording is not clear enough. I can see why it would be tricky to make sure the explanations are clear in multiple languages but surely it’s worth doing. That shouldn’t be something that takes dev time away from anything else, bar coming up with the list of what’s in and what’s out, it’s a semantic and linguistic problem. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,779 Chairperson of the Boards
    Grey Suit Widow's green and red both seem like they should trigger it; in fact, her green uses the specific verbiage "does an ADDITIONAL ## damage to the enemy team" in it, which exactly aligns with the patch note in R154. Why doesn't that one work?
  • hodayathink
    hodayathink Posts: 528 Critical Contributor
    Grey Suit Widow's green and red both seem like they should trigger it; in fact, her green uses the specific verbiage "does an ADDITIONAL ## damage to the enemy team" in it, which exactly aligns with the patch note in R154. Why doesn't that one work?

    The additional damage for Widow's green actually does trigger WF, it's that the damage to the target is explicitly from tile damage, and that damage does not trigger it.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,779 Chairperson of the Boards
    I just tested GSBW with Okoye, and Sniper Rifle DOES stack wakanda forever damage to the two non-target enemies, it just doesn't do it to the direct target. I feel this is a bug similar to what was being reported with Ragnarok's green rather than intended behavior. Her Red power, which similarly has a block of additional damage specified, does not gain the benefit of WF.

    Black Widow (grey suit)
    Sniper Rifle 19 Green AP
    Black widow shoots a location on the board, clearing a reticle shaped pattern. Deals damage for each tile destroyed. Piercing amm does an additional 4182 damage to all enemies (Does not generate AP) - DOES gain benefit on non-target enemies, but not target

    Pistol 17 Red AP
    Black Widow fires 3 shots at the board, clearing a block of tiles, dealing damage for each tile, and an additional 929 damage to the current target (does not generate AP). -Does NOT benefit from Wakanda Forever
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 6,791 Chairperson of the Boards
    If you were to test Starlord's green which is similar to Ragnarok's green, it benefits from Okoye's passive power and all three enemies received the same damage. I had at least 10 teamup ap to make sure that the additional damage is obvious.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,779 Chairperson of the Boards
    I’m also curious what happens to 4* Cyclops, since he drains team up on red. Does it add at all? Does it happen before or after the drain if it happens? I’ll get to that one here at some point
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 6,791 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    What happens is Okoye's passive will kick in after removing 10 teamup ap. If you have 15 teamup ap, after Cyclop fires his red, his power gain an additional damage stack based on 15-10=5 teamup ap.

    The same operation happens to 3* Storm's yellow that destroys and gains teamup ap. If you have 3 teamup ap and Storm destroys 7 teamup aps, she will gain an additional damage from Okoye's based on 10 teamup ap.

    Break it down and it will be (for this scenario)
    1. Calculate total damage after power is fired.
    2. Calculate the no of teamup ap.
    3. Add Okoye's damage multiplier based on the number of teamup ap now.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,779 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    I just went back and tested 2* Widow's black passive, which is functionally the same power as Juggernaut's passive, save that it only targets the single target rather than AOE, and it benefits from Wakanda Forever. She does the match damage, then a second batch of bonus damage gets applied. I was able to use Okoye/Chavez/2* Widow to defeat an Okoye/Sabretooth/Gladiathor team this way in Simulator.

    Black Widow (Original)
    Espionage 0 black AP
    (PASSIVE) Black Widow steals enemy secrets. When she attacks by making a Purple, Blue, or Black match, she does 162 extra damage. If the enemy has that color AP, she steals 1 from them.

    Compare to:

    Collatoral -  greentilepng Passive
    (PASSIVE) Clear a path!  Whenever Juggernaut makes a match, he deals 41 damage to the enemy team.
  • AXP_isme
    AXP_isme Posts: 809 Critical Contributor
    I think you may have mistaken this game for one with consistency. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,779 Chairperson of the Boards
    I found an interesting nuance of running Apocalypse together with Okoye today: Wakanda Forever and Shared Strength don't actually stack, it uses whichever one is giving the higher bonus exclusively.

    So for awhile now my SCL10 hard node clear team has been 50% Thor (5/0/2)/Okoye/Apocalypse on the premise that you get yellow ASAP, fire Shared Strength, then chase team up while Thor builds everything else in the background. I was looking at the bonus numbers today though, and they didn't seem to be adding up, which is when I made the aforementioned discovery. 

    So it's still a pretty fast team, it just gets you an early fixed boost while you build up a better one in the background to really stomp them flat after a few turns - but I've swapped out Okoye for BRB and I'm thinking the cheap hits and added multi-hit on green are actually faster with the lesser Shared Strength boost, so I'll play this for a bit to see if that isn't better.