***** Iceman (Bobby Drake) *****

AlexNapalm

Zeofar said:

Momo988 said:

HoundofShadow said:

I think you are right. Matching is the same as destroying. DPXF's countdown triggers on a match even though it stated "if destroyed…"  

But I think matching fortified tiles is not the same as destroying?

It should be. As evidenced by Medusa’s CD creating attacks when it is matched even if fortified. 

Medusa's red is explicitly triggered by matches AND destruction. On other hand, 5* CM's Red (Passive) and Green (Active) require destruction and do not trigger off fortified tiles. But, again, XFDP breaks the rule so I don't think we can take ability descriptions alone as definitive.

CM's power description specifically rules out matching as a trigger. 

"Passive) Whenever a friendly Strike tile is destroyed by any means other than a match, gain 1 Yellow AP."

Her power description also names matching as a means of destruction so matching Iceman's tiles you trigger his abilities. He'd be totally useless if it didn't since most tile destruction targets basic tiles.

bluewolf

Tony_Foot said:

Warbringa said:

  5* Thor deals 39,000 some damage when fired?  It will take you at least, six turns to do that much damage, in which time you probably have already gathered 12 more green AP for Thor. You will have lost that match or Iceman will be dead before those six turns are up.

Great post but where are you getting 39k for thor?

I see Iceman as being under rated really. That green is going to be a nightmare for halfthor users. You will find yourself dipping into health packs more often and having to mid climb do that annoying retreat to half health. I think Ice and Okoye could be a pain and skipped because of the risk to thor.

Sure not meta but I can already see I will look for less risky fights if only to avoid heal/retreat.

39K is based on having Thor deal AOE and doing 13,126 at 450 (5 covers).

I agree with the basic assessments that he's good but not meta.  My understanding is that the green puts repeaters on random color and the blue only puts CDs on existing blue tiles, so he's limited by the board there.

The fact that the repeaters are random means that facing him, you might be chasing off colors and slowing you down.  On the other hand, the AI won't chase their off colors so you might not be hit by AOE that often.

I don't know if anyone would run Iceman and Okoye in standard PVP, but I'd hit him first, for sure.  While they would be close to a rainbow, he'd be draining TU.  If you're running Thorkoye, there's a good chance you're destroying a lot of the yellow on the board which will make it harder for him to match his CD; however, it is being created so placement is a key factor each time.  Also, if you're running Thorkoye you're often leaving a lot of blue on the board....making his stun more likely to go off.

All the autopilot means he will be yeah, he could be annoying on defense.  It seems like it would be fun to watch Okoye match black over chasing his yellow CD and seeing him take damage as a result.

DyingLegend

interesting character....

Maybe i'll have him covered in the next few years.

bluewolf

@Brigby

How does Champion Defender react to AOE damage and multi hits?  I assume that a multi-hit trigger would, if enough TU AP exists, block each hit and create a CD.  But AOE often gets around these kinds of "block damage" abilities.

Daredevil217

@Brigby ; could you let us know how his yellow interacts with Thor’s AOE? 

1) it does nothing and only triggers off single target damage

2) each character hit by the AOE will only take about 3-4k damage, and three yellow countdowns will get placed that do 9K damage each to Iceman if they resolve

2a- this drains 3 TU AP
2b- this drains 9 TU AP

3) each character hit by the AOE will take about 9-10k damage (instead of the normal 13) and 1 CD is created. 

4) the character in front takes 9K less damage, the countdown is created, and the other two are hit normally. 

4a- though how does this work if a character deals 9K damage in the form of a 3k AOE. 

5) Iceman himself takes 9K less and creates a CD while the others are hit normally. 

Lots of options on how this could work. 

Daredevil217

I’m coming around on him more the more I think about it. I will say two things. 

One, he’s a natural counter to Thor, a pest on defense; and likely should be targeted first. Running Thorkoye I hate cheap stunners because once Okoye is incapacitated (even for a turn), I have to tank with my weakened Thor. And it’s devestating if they have a nuke lined up. Iceman’s green doing random and AOE damage is a threat to Odinson. too. Finally, as mentioned above, depending on how it works, Bobby’s yellow could neuter Thor’s  AOE.  

My second thought is that while everyone is “better with Okoye”; all three of her powers synergize with Bobby; and not just the usual black. 

Black- Every resolution of Bobby’s 7AP green repeaters will get boosted by Okoye, as will the AOE on matches-which with even a little team up AP will melt the opposition. Imagine all 6 resolving and getting the TU bonus SIX times!

Yellow- Okoye will tank black, red and TU for sure and be able to heal up. Though the real synergy here is that Okoye will use the TU AP she floods the board with offensively to boost powers and then Bobby will dip into the reserves and drain some when needed defensively when the team gets hit with big damage. So yellow will be fueling both. 

Red- Red will be amazing to get rid of Bobby’s yellow tile to ensure he doesn’t eat big damage. No matter where it is placed on the board, her red can get to it. If used as a third for Thorkoye, I’m for once using her red over Thor. Her row destruction should also set off both green and blue tiles to create all kinds of damage and stun shenanigans. 

They are a perfect pair. Throw in Daredevil as a third in Sim, and that’s a pretty fun team. 

jamesh

Momo988 said:

HoundofShadow said:

I think you are right. Matching is the same as destroying. DPXF's countdown triggers on a match even though it stated "if destroyed…"  

But I think matching fortified tiles is not the same as destroying?

It should be. As evidenced by Medusa’s CD creating attacks when it is matched even if fortified. 

Her countdown doesn't trigger if it has been fortified and then a "destroy tile" power removes the fortification.

Destruction generally means "the tile is gone, and another tile falls to take its place".  Matching tiles is one way to destroy them, provided that they aren't fortified.

DAZ0273

I think he looks really good, I was wondering on the yellow also so would be good to hear from Brigby.

ThaRoadWarrior

I’m pretty sure Thor’s passive will end up triggering Bobby’s green reliably, either through cascades or direct destruction. Coupled with Okoye, I think this is the 5* Sabertooth

bluewolf

jamesh said:

Momo988 said:

HoundofShadow said:

I think you are right. Matching is the same as destroying. DPXF's countdown triggers on a match even though it stated "if destroyed…"  

But I think matching fortified tiles is not the same as destroying?

It should be. As evidenced by Medusa’s CD creating attacks when it is matched even if fortified. 

Her countdown doesn't trigger if it has been fortified and then a "destroy tile" power removes the fortification.

Destruction generally means "the tile is gone, and another tile falls to take its place".  Matching tiles is one way to destroy them, provided that they aren't fortified.

First, I think Medusa's tile does actually react to being matched when fortified.

I did test XFDP just now with Okoye and Hawkeye.  When you match fortified "Countdown for What" tiles they deal the damage, and the CD of course loses fortification but remains on the board for potentially being matched again.

The description for XFDP says "if destroyed before they reach 0, each one is primed to deal 2563 damage".

So, fortified repeaters should do the same thing.

PiMacleod

Looking forward to this.

tiomono

3/5/5

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I’m pretty sure Thor’s passive will end up triggering Bobby’s green reliably, either through cascades or direct destruction. Coupled with Okoye, I think this is the 5* Sabertooth

Only with aoe and stun. I think some people are underestimating him. He may not be amazing on his own but in the right teams I think he will be a threat.

Warbringa

Tony_Foot said:

Warbringa said:

  5* Thor deals 39,000 some damage when fired?  It will take you at least, six turns to do that much damage, in which time you probably have already gathered 12 more green AP for Thor. You will have lost that match or Iceman will be dead before those six turns are up.

Great post but where are you getting 39k for thor?

I see Iceman as being under rated really. That green is going to be a nightmare for halfthor users. You will find yourself dipping into health packs more often and having to mid climb do that annoying retreat to half health. I think Ice and Okoye could be a pain and skipped because of the risk to thor.

Sure not meta but I can already see I will look for less risky fights if only to avoid heal/retreat.

Thor does approximately 13,000 to each opponent with his green I believe.  I think my Thor is 451, it was just an approximation. Sure once you are down to one or two opponent that damage drops since it is an AoE.

I agree with your assessment that he could be a problem for 5Thor, especially if you can reliably remove those yellow countdown tiles.  Perhaps an actual use for 4* Kingpin? 

I think he is being over rated but I am no expert and may very well be wrong, we all know that powers on paper can end up being very different in-game.  I think he is a solid mid-tier to upper mid-tier character but not necessarily one to go chasing as of right now.  I think his yellow power is the big key.  How good of a defensive power will it be. If his yellow power is a decent defensive power, then he might be much more formidable. If it is junk, then he will simply be eliminated far before his blue and green powers can really be effective. In addition his blue and green powers probably have better alternatives in both the 5* and even 4* tiers (for blue at least). For example, consider his blue stun and Bishop's.   Bishop teams will just shut him down, so it is one reason I am not really excited about him as I think I would still just bring Bishop to the fight instead of him for better stun control if I had the choice.  

jamesh

bluewolf said:

First, I think Medusa's tile does actually react to being matched when fortified.

Sure, that's because Medusa's power says "matched or destroyed": it hasn't been destroyed but it definitely has been matched.  Iceman's power only says "destroyed", so this could be important.

As I said, if you use a tile destruction power against a fortified version of Medusa's tile, nothing happens because it hasn't been matched and it hasn't been destroyed.  So it isn't clear that matching a fortified version of Iceman's blue countdown will do anything.

I'm not really sure how Deadpool's countdowns fit into this though.  I know they've made a few tweaks to the power (e.g. handling cases where he is stunned or airborne), so it might have some of sort of custom triggers.

ThaRoadWarrior

I believe "Matched" is a subset of "Destroyed." Tiles that say "when matched" don't do anything when removed via a line clear or a power that punches out tiles. But when it says "destroyed," that is generally inclusive of them being matched. The verbiage often IS "matched or destroyed" (as in Mysterio From Thin Air who was just released) when it's both though, so it's hard to know for certain. I can't think of any other character who ONLY has "destroyed" in a power description.

@Brigby
any way to get clarity on this one?

Vhailorx

Dragon_Nexus said:

Blue looks like something else that'll go very nicely with Bishop.

No, I don't think so.  To use Bobby you need to destroy the CD tiles. If you can destroy all of them it might be more efficient than bishop alone, but  I strongly suspect that in the real world it would be better just to use Bishop's stun and bring a 5* nuke

Sm0keyJ0e

While we're peppering @Brigby with questions, I have a question about the green: if you're able to destroy a row that contains 3 of these repeaters, for example, does the team damage to the enemy proc 3 separate times, thereby adding strike and/or Okoye black TU damage for each repeater tile destroyed?

Vhailorx

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I believe "Matched" is a subset of "Destroyed." Tiles that say "when matched" don't do anything when removed via a line clear or a power that punches out tiles. But when it says "destroyed," that is generally inclusive of them being matched. The verbiage often IS "matched or destroyed" (as in Mysterio From Thin Air who was just released) when it's both though, so it's hard to know for certain. I can't think of any other character who ONLY has "destroyed" in a power description.

@Brigby
any way to get clarity on this one?

 I think 5* Carol's red passive might work this way (it procs when strike tiles are destroyed in any way other than matching)

MirrorKnight

3/5/5

Will Champion Defender work if there are no free yellow tiles?

@Brigby

ThaRoadWarrior

Sm0keyJ0e said:

While we're peppering @Brigby with questions, I have a question about the green: if you're able to destroy a row that contains 3 of these repeaters, for example, does the team damage to the enemy proc 3 separate times, thereby adding strike and/or Okoye black TU damage for each repeater tile destroyed?

I would expect it to work just like Countdown for What based on how it's been written.