4* releases are now a waste of everyone's time and money.

24

Comments

  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    tiomono said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    Still waiting for a Classic Legends token so I could at least try to get some older ones now and then.
    Psst. Nothing is stopping you from using cp on the classics store. Except the dillution, and less likely chance at covering newer meh 5*s.
    What's stopping me is the need to keep up with current 5*s.
    The classic store made more sense when I was still building my 4*s and not caring as much about the 5*s. There weren't nearly as many 5*s in there at that point.

    Now I've got all the 4*s except the newest ones. I've champed a bunch of 5*s, but older ones are impossible to get while I'm trying to champ the current 5*s.
    I'm baffled that people seem to object to the idea of introducing a new token that gives you a shot at older 5*s as opposed to the current system of requiring valuable CP for it.
    I'm not objecting to a classics token. Just pointing out that there is nothing stopping you from spending cp in the classics store.
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    tiomono said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    Still waiting for a Classic Legends token so I could at least try to get some older ones now and then.
    Psst. Nothing is stopping you from using cp on the classics store. Except the dillution, and less likely chance at covering newer meh 5*s.
    What's stopping me is the need to keep up with current 5*s.
    The classic store made more sense when I was still building my 4*s and not caring as much about the 5*s. There weren't nearly as many 5*s in there at that point.

    Now I've got all the 4*s except the newest ones. I've champed a bunch of 5*s, but older ones are impossible to get while I'm trying to champ the current 5*s.
    I'm baffled that people seem to object to the idea of introducing a new token that gives you a shot at older 5*s as opposed to the current system of requiring valuable CP for it.
    I'm not objecting to a classics token. Just pointing out that there is nothing stopping you from spending cp in the classics store.

    As if I'm not already aware of that.
    And there *is* something stopping me. The need to keep the current 5*s up and going.
  • jamesh
    jamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    tiomono said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    tiomono said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    Still waiting for a Classic Legends token so I could at least try to get some older ones now and then.
    Psst. Nothing is stopping you from using cp on the classics store. Except the dillution, and less likely chance at covering newer meh 5*s.
    What's stopping me is the need to keep up with current 5*s.
    The classic store made more sense when I was still building my 4*s and not caring as much about the 5*s. There weren't nearly as many 5*s in there at that point.

    Now I've got all the 4*s except the newest ones. I've champed a bunch of 5*s, but older ones are impossible to get while I'm trying to champ the current 5*s.
    I'm baffled that people seem to object to the idea of introducing a new token that gives you a shot at older 5*s as opposed to the current system of requiring valuable CP for it.
    I'm not objecting to a classics token. Just pointing out that there is nothing stopping you from spending cp in the classics store.

    As if I'm not already aware of that.
    And there *is* something stopping me. The need to keep the current 5*s up and going.
    Let's put the question another way: would you be happy if they removed 20 CP from the reward table for an event and replaced it with a classic legends token?  Alternatively, if they were going to add prizes to an event's reward table, which would you prefer: a classic legends token, or 20 CP?
  • zonatahunt
    zonatahunt Posts: 251 Mover and Shaker
    I would take the 20 cp any day over a Classics LT.  You’re bound to an extremely diluted 5* pull if you take the token (meaning you’ll never get the character AND the right color cover), and you’re reducing your chances of champing a current 5*.  Plus, if I change my mind, I can still use the 20 cp for a classic pull.  Yeah, please don’t change cp rewards for a Classics LT.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    jamesh said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    tiomono said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    tiomono said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    Still waiting for a Classic Legends token so I could at least try to get some older ones now and then.
    Psst. Nothing is stopping you from using cp on the classics store. Except the dillution, and less likely chance at covering newer meh 5*s.
    What's stopping me is the need to keep up with current 5*s.
    The classic store made more sense when I was still building my 4*s and not caring as much about the 5*s. There weren't nearly as many 5*s in there at that point.

    Now I've got all the 4*s except the newest ones. I've champed a bunch of 5*s, but older ones are impossible to get while I'm trying to champ the current 5*s.
    I'm baffled that people seem to object to the idea of introducing a new token that gives you a shot at older 5*s as opposed to the current system of requiring valuable CP for it.
    I'm not objecting to a classics token. Just pointing out that there is nothing stopping you from spending cp in the classics store.

    As if I'm not already aware of that.
    And there *is* something stopping me. The need to keep the current 5*s up and going.
    Let's put the question another way: would you be happy if they removed 20 CP from the reward table for an event and replaced it with a classic legends token?  Alternatively, if they were going to add prizes to an event's reward table, which would you prefer: a classic legends token, or 20 CP?
    I would sincerely hope they would add a new token type and not remove/replace anything. But this is getting off topic.

    The more bloated the 4* tier gets the less interesting new releases might be if they dont fill some kind of unique role. I dont really feel new ones are a waste. As long as new characters do something slightly different or a new combination of other characters functionality I think they can add as many as they want.

    They just really need to address dilution and the ability for people to fully cover specific characters that they are interested in. 

    Some people will always want to collect them all. But the game doesn't have to make us feel like we need to collect them all. They could make 2 or more 4*'s featured in a story mode and give rewards based off which one you want to use. That way characters would rotate around more frequently giving players choices. 

    Once a game gets huge in character selection it would be nice if it switched to ways to allow people to choose how to play rather than force them into needing to focus on everything at the same time or be forced into lower rewards in an event if they are missing a character. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    500 plus days in and I have over 30 champed 4*, without spending any dime. Zilch.

    To summarise, most 4* have zero marginal value and are useless to vets like Vhailorx. It's a waste of their time and money.

    The suggestion is to retire 4* and make 5* easier to champ. While retiring 4*, the devs might as well remove all the other tiers since this game will turn into a match-damage fest for new players. This is possibly the worst business decision the dev can make and the best decision for players. 

    Again, it boils down to expectation and impatience. Even if 5* are easier to champ, most 5* are useless unless they are meta-changing.

    End of the day, the main problem is some players want to get as many rewards as possible in the shortest time possible. They think they should be able to, for example, champ x characters within y timeframe or finish a match within x moves. I think no amount of rewards will solve these issues. The issue is impatience.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    500 plus days in and I have over 30 champed 4*, without spending any dime. Zilch.

    To summarise, most 4* have zero marginal value and are useless to vets like Vhailorx. It's a waste of their time and money.

    The suggestion is to retire 4* and make 5* easier to champ. While retiring 4*, the devs might as well remove all the other tiers since this game will turn into a match-damage fest for new players. This is possibly the worst business decision the dev can make and the best decision for players. 

    Again, it boils down to expectation and impatience. Even if 5* are easier to champ, most 5* are useless unless they are meta-changing.

    End of the day, the main problem is some players want to get as many rewards as possible in the shortest time possible. They think they should be able to, for example, champ x characters within y timeframe or finish a match within x moves. I think no amount of rewards will solve these issues. The issue is impatience.
    I don't get your point.  Are you saying that vets like me just need to be more patient? I don't think patience is the problem when a large portion of vets are also preaching optimal hoarding startegies that require months or years of restraint. 

    The problem is one of boredom and return on investment.  Keeping pace with the release schedule costs time and money.  If the new releases don't make a net positive impact on a player's experience, then getting the releases is a waste of that time/money. 

    Also, what is your point about retiring 4*s making the game a match damage fest?  How?

    1*-4*s have set match damage.  The 5* tier has 2-2.5x more match damage relative to health.  So match damage is a big deal in 5* land.  But that's already true.  Why does retiring 4*s change that at all?
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    The only ROI is happiness or fun. 

    1. You are not locked into a contract with Demiurge or Marvel where you are being forced to play every day.

    2. You are not getting extra pay raise if you tell your boss that you have champed every 5* or you are top 1 or top 5 in PvEs/PvPs in MPQ.

    3. Nobody set the expectation that you must keep pace with release schedule.

    4. Optimal playstyle takes away fun. IMO, players who are overly sticky on optimal playstyle are not very happy.

    There's only a couple simple rules to follow:

    1) Are you happy playing the game? If you are not, then rethink why it is so.

    2) Can you do something about it? For example, try a new way of playing the game or shift your perspective on how the game can be played. If it's not working and you can't do anything about it, then it's time to look for a new game.

    It's going to be a match damage fest for new players as in 1-3 star players. Making changes affect not only 5* land, but also affect players in the lower tier. It's much easier to come up with MPQ 2 then to implement the changes that you recommend.


    1) How long do you think it should take vets like you to champ 5* without hoarding?

    2) How long do you think it should take vets like you to champ 4* without hoarding?
  • peterdark
    peterdark Posts: 151 Tile Toppler
    HoundofShadow said:
    500 plus days in and I have over 30 champed 4*, without spending any dime. Zilch.

    To summarise, most 4* have zero marginal value and are useless to vets like Vhailorx. It's a waste of their time and money.

    I'm just going through the 4 star transition and hadn't spent a thing. Decided a couple of weeks ago that I would put some money into the game, not because I needed to at the time but because I've been playing for a while and that the developers 'deserve' some pennies.

    It's a great f2p game and one of the only f2p games that you can really progress without paying, but I personally think if we play for a while and we get entertainment from it we should be dontaing towards their efforts, even if you don't agree with certain things. Funnily enough, I think i will need to put more money in as I need to get 8k HP as I went a bit crazy pulling classics :S
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards
    1.  Telling other players they are playing wrong is not usually helpful and won't help you make your points any better, or make them more receptive to your ideas.  That said, it is a lot of stress sometimes to keep up with the pace of the game and I advocate players taking an event every so often to play down and mostly worry about green checks.  Maybe even skip a day once progression is reached.  

    Sub-point:  Your idea of fun and someone else's idea of fun MAY BE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.  One player wants to just champ their favorite Marvel character (let's say Dazzler) and another wants to see how fast they can champ a 4 and be one of the top players in their bracket. One person is trying to maximize their speed and another wants to try out new combinations and see what fun teams they can make thematically.

    2.  The faster release schedule for 5's means your window to reach the number of pulls to finish a 5 is smaller, allowing less room for error.  That does not negate my first suggestion, as the amount of rewards changes little between SCLs and missing some 4's from placement or 7-10 CP for one event won't have any significant impact on finishing a 5 or not.  

    The window to champ a 5 without hoarding is now approximately 16 weeks on average; once someone leaves Latests you can't set a timeframe because your next-best avenues are:  
    A.  Classics and extreme dilution requiring a lucky pull
    B.  Bonus and extreme luck to get one (and the right color!)
    C.  Waiting for a special store to contain the character you want, which has no predictability and also requires a hoard to be able to take advantage of
    D.  A feeder being established (very rare lately and certainly nowhere near keeping up with the pace of releases)

    3.  Extreme dilution means that finishing a 4 is either happening within the first couple months or so of release (when they are apparently (?) going to be offered as a reward more frequently in PVE) or just whenever it happens.  A vet can bonus a 4 and finish someone pretty quickly, but the question is what your other goals are.  Some are trying to move feeders up to finish a 5, some want big meta 4's like Rocket or Bishop, etc.  Sometimes I think dilution helps the devs keep vets involved as it gets harder and harder to achieve your sub goals in the 4 tier.

    4.  "Retiring" the 4 tier as proposed by the OP is not a question of somehow removing all 4's from the game and would not materially effect the way that newer players build their rosters and play, except that they would not be constantly falling behind in the era of dilution (assuming their goal was to finish (champ all) the 4 tier, which may not be a viable goal any longer for a new player).  Retiring as proposed is to stop releasing more 4's.  I do not think this will happen; I am not sure it should happen, either.

    Shifting to all 5's without a 2-3 fold increase in CP/LT rewards would put even the majority of top players permanently behind and almost certainly ensure that no one could keep up with the release schedule.  Which would just drive away more players.
  • peterdark
    peterdark Posts: 151 Tile Toppler
    ...or maybe the plan is to dilute everything meaning that to stay on top you will 'burn out' from playing forcing everyone to take a breather at some point. The knock-on effect means that the playing field is more even... or maybe not :wink:
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards
    While newer players will do better if top players (high end rosters) quit, they had better be prepared to step up the spending to keep the game going.  A lot of top players are the ones who do things like buy the $74.99 costume bundles, etc.
  • Therealsmkspy
    Therealsmkspy Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    edited June 2019
    If I were forced to introduce 6*, to me, the only way to make them work is by applying the galactus model.

    No match damage
    Have a 30 AP requirement for each power, but that power would be really effective. 

    Being that fives were so screwed up on launch, a sixth tier would have to be a tier that had both positives and negatives to balance with the other tiers. 

    And lol at we're impatient. Personally, I literally champed all 3s and 4s before ever champing a 5. If that's not patience then I don't know what is. 
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2019
    I really wonder if 4* releases drive revenue any longer for the game.  As more and more players rosters mature, I don't see how 4* releases really can increase revenue significantly.  Eventually HP earning becomes high enough that you don't need to spend $ to roster the new character.  Rarely are mature rosters going to spend $ chasing a new 4* unless they are extremely OP, and even then not as much as a good 5* would probably bring in.  Perhaps there are a lot of 3* to 4* transitioners yet but I have to think that pool of players is much, much smaller than it was several years ago where 4* releases were more vital to a larger part of the player base.  

    I really think that what will drive revenue for the game going forward is not new character releases as much as new game content.  Unfortunately it will be play to pay new events (VIP linked or otherwise) providing new missions, new enemies, more rewards, maybe special PvP tournaments, and perhaps wait for it.....actual puzzle challenges etc.  I think this is the only way to add new life to the game while also building revenue for the devs & publishers.  Perhaps there may also be the chances for new sub games, such as sending heroes to do missions for chances at rewards etc.  New character releases are not going to be the lifeblood for revenue in the game.   I think they hoped supports would be that big change but not so much. 

    I think supports failed for multiple reasons but the main one was that it was unable to be used in PvP, and rightly so.  For supports to have a massive influence in the game, they needed to give you an advantage in PvP (as well as PvE).  The problem with this is that since supports availability was so limited and flawed, you couldn't implement this because everyone without supports would just quit playing.  They made supports so rare (to hopefully drive demand and revenue) but in doing so they also made it so you couldn't even consider using them in half of the game.  The impact on PvE was helpful but not nearly enough so to make most players really desire spending $ or time to get supports.  
  • n25philly
    n25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    Borstock said:
    Ignored Dilution is a problem thread #6,486. 
    fixed
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think the misunderstanding came from "retiring 4* land", which I last remembered.That explains why what I wrote didn't make sense.

    There are a lot of similarities between MPQ and other collectible "card"  (match-3) or  "character" game as far as dilution and useless character releases is concern: 1) It's more difficult to get what you want as more cards or characters are added in.  2) RNG. 

    I believe the devs are also looking at how their competitors are dealing with these issues. However, those devs from other games don't seems to be stopping new releases despite feedbacks from players and they have been running the games since 2014/2015. 

    Increasing CP gain is one solution. The problem is how many is enough for the vets? 50 CP a week will net the players an extra 104 LT or 130 Classic per year. Will that be enough?

    Making 5* easier to get? Since 5* is the top prize of the game, the devs are unlikely to make it easy. Again, how do you define easy? Add 5* covers in SCL 10 progression? Reduce the number of days needed from 90 days to 60 or 45 days to get 5* covers from daily login? 

    Could it be Support that will turn your 5* into a 6*?

    What's the net effect of retiring new 4* release and making 5* easier to get? The gap between new players and vets will increase many fold, compared to now.

    How do you solve this? If your answer is increase the rewards that newer players get to speed up their 3* or 4* progression, then this will affect future character bundle prices, which is another source of income for them. The devs either reduce the price of their bundles or include more covers per bundle, which means taking a hit in their sales or ROI. 

  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    What about a mode that restricts 5 stars from being used? I feel this could be easily implemented, but i could be wrong.


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