Placement discussion

Malcrof

Spudgutter said:

Malcrof said:

i would like an option to join pvps as progression only. This way, all the competitive people can smack me around for points all they want, and my retals do nothing to them. The downside is 0 placement rewards, the upside, we can stay casual and remove all stress or need for shielding. I accidentally got a t20 finish in a pvp (yeah it happened with 3 wins, all seeds), and felt guilty about it, considering what others have to do for it, so if an option pops up to just be able to play with no red nodes removing the teams i can actually beat if i get a chance to play, would be great.

Huh

I didn't know i wanted a variation on this until you said it.  The number of wins would have to go down, 75 is still way too high.

Also weird, if you went back even 2 to 3 years ago, and looked at threads asking for pvp changes to make it more "fair," there were similar arguments that it would *never* happen.  And yet, here we are today, with wins based.  Something that I, and others in this very thread need to remember; never say never.

it is actually already in the game, as a punishment. 

Spudgutter

Malcrof said:

Spudgutter said:

Malcrof said:

i would like an option to join pvps as progression only. This way, all the competitive people can smack me around for points all they want, and my retals do nothing to them. The downside is 0 placement rewards, the upside, we can stay casual and remove all stress or need for shielding. I accidentally got a t20 finish in a pvp (yeah it happened with 3 wins, all seeds), and felt guilty about it, considering what others have to do for it, so if an option pops up to just be able to play with no red nodes removing the teams i can actually beat if i get a chance to play, would be great.

Huh

I didn't know i wanted a variation on this until you said it.  The number of wins would have to go down, 75 is still way too high.

Also weird, if you went back even 2 to 3 years ago, and looked at threads asking for pvp changes to make it more "fair," there were similar arguments that it would *never* happen.  And yet, here we are today, with wins based.  Something that I, and others in this very thread need to remember; never say never.

it is actually already in the game, as a punishment. 

For us, yes.  For someone who cannot get to 575 for the cp but can get the wins in over 2.5 days, it is subjectively "fair."

Daredevil217

Spudgutter said:

abmoraz said:

Phumade said:

abmoraz said:

Phumade said:

prove me wrong.

Well, I had some well-reasoned responses ready for you, until I got to the well-known "I'm trolling" line of "Prove me wrong".  So I guess you hooked me.

/as someone else stated: under the current system, it's impossible to improve in MPQ unless people ahead of you quit or choose not to play an event.  That's not a sustainable system.

Same here.  It's always nice when someone leaves a clue to let you know they are arguing in bad faith. 

I always enjoy when these threads pop up from someone who has only been playing a couple of years and doesn't know we have been down this road before.  Someone mentioned we see these before, but different people come and go on the forum, so sometimes they have to be re-hashed for the uninitiated.  Cest la vie

Its also funny how when this thread pops up, looking for suggestions (that unfortunately plenty of us know falls on deaf ears, also already mentioned), that instead of getting suggestions, they get told how entitled or delusional they are.  Some are not even sugar coated (thank you for the decorum for those that did respond courteously).

Seriously.   Op asked if there were ways to make it more fair.  That's all.  Perfectly normal to wonder, once your roster reaches a certain point. 

I mean, i can understand the frustration. It drives me crazy in character threads when people suggest tweaks, nerfs, buffs, etc. The devs don't listen and won't take your suggestions, so save your breath.  And yet, people do.  Weird how these same people aren't in there, chastising and shouting down those threads as well, almost lending credence to the suspicion that they are only defending the status quo because they are a part of it...

What's that?  Some people who will suggest character changes are probably in here arguing or agreeing that placement shouldn't change?  This is my surprised face.

All I said was that these discussions have been had before.  Never said they should not be rehashed again.  I'm open to new suggestions, I just personally haven't seen any new ideas that haven't been mentioned in the past (and I believe each idea has its own set of issues).

I don't understand the comparison to character threads.  They have and will likely continue to rebalance characters.  5* Ock and 4* Mr. Fantastic weren't that long ago were they? Do they do it as often as some would like? Of course not.  But they do rebalance.  So people asking for character buffs seem reasonable to me, given that it is standard practice (though I'm with you on hating the calls for nerfs.  Bishop may be my one exception though, haha).

Phumade

Spudgutter said:

Same here.  It's always nice when someone leaves a clue to let you know they are arguing in bad faith. 

I always enjoy when these threads pop up from someone who has only been playing a couple of years and doesn't know we have been down this road before.  Someone mentioned we see these before, but different people come and go on the forum, so sometimes they have to be re-hashed for the uninitiated.  Cest la vie

Its also funny how when this thread pops up, looking for suggestions (that unfortunately plenty of us know falls on deaf ears, also already mentioned), that instead of getting suggestions, they get told how entitled or delusional they are.  Some are not even sugar coated (thank you for the decorum for those that did respond courteously).

Seriously.   Op asked if there were ways to make it more fair.  That's all.  Perfectly normal to wonder, once your roster reaches a certain point. 

I mean, i can understand the frustration. It drives me crazy in character threads when people suggest tweaks, nerfs, buffs, etc. The devs don't listen and won't take your suggestions, so save your breath.  And yet, people do.  Weird how these same people aren't in there, chastising and shouting down those threads as well, almost lending credence to the suspicion that they are only defending the status quo because they are a part of it...

What's that?  Some people who will suggest character changes are probably in here arguing or agreeing that placement shouldn't change?  This is my surprised face.

I definitely got thicker skin around day 1500.  I didn’t realize people were participating in character threads with the assumption that devs were seriously considering changes.  I just assumed it was people theory-crafting for their personal fan fiction.

although I’ll be honest and say I heard a few people converted all their gritty strikes to protects in the 5e pepper node.  Did someone mention that yet in those threads?  I stopped reading those threads cause they weren’t relevant to my day to day play and I knew I get to make my own decision on how they played on their debut pvp.

anyway I’ll save the sugar coating for the day 1000 and under players.  I agree they don’t know any better.

jp1

Daredevil217 said:

Spudgutter said:

abmoraz said:

Phumade said:

abmoraz said:

Phumade said:

prove me wrong.

Well, I had some well-reasoned responses ready for you, until I got to the well-known "I'm trolling" line of "Prove me wrong".  So I guess you hooked me.

/as someone else stated: under the current system, it's impossible to improve in MPQ unless people ahead of you quit or choose not to play an event.  That's not a sustainable system.

Same here.  It's always nice when someone leaves a clue to let you know they are arguing in bad faith. 

I always enjoy when these threads pop up from someone who has only been playing a couple of years and doesn't know we have been down this road before.  Someone mentioned we see these before, but different people come and go on the forum, so sometimes they have to be re-hashed for the uninitiated.  Cest la vie

Its also funny how when this thread pops up, looking for suggestions (that unfortunately plenty of us know falls on deaf ears, also already mentioned), that instead of getting suggestions, they get told how entitled or delusional they are.  Some are not even sugar coated (thank you for the decorum for those that did respond courteously).

Seriously.   Op asked if there were ways to make it more fair.  That's all.  Perfectly normal to wonder, once your roster reaches a certain point. 

I mean, i can understand the frustration. It drives me crazy in character threads when people suggest tweaks, nerfs, buffs, etc. The devs don't listen and won't take your suggestions, so save your breath.  And yet, people do.  Weird how these same people aren't in there, chastising and shouting down those threads as well, almost lending credence to the suspicion that they are only defending the status quo because they are a part of it...

What's that?  Some people who will suggest character changes are probably in here arguing or agreeing that placement shouldn't change?  This is my surprised face.

All I said was that these discussions have been had before.  Never said they should not be rehashed again.  I'm open to new suggestions, I just personally haven't seen any new ideas that haven't been mentioned in the past (and I believe each idea has its own set of issues).

I don't understand the comparison to character threads.  They have and will likely continue to rebalance characters.  5* Ock and 4* Mr. Fantastic weren't that long ago were they? Do they do it as often as some would like? Of course not.  But they do rebalance.  So people asking for character buffs seem reasonable to me, given that it is standard practice (though I'm with you on hating the calls for nerfs.  Bishop may be my one exception though, haha).

I don’t think that post was directed at you.

I don’t think there is anything wrong from offering a different perspective/opinion than the OP, I did title it “discussion” after all. It’s just that some folks have been unnecessarily rude and pointed in their approach. 

bluewolf

One party that has not been discussed in this thread is the developers.  Making a change in PVE win conditions obviously would require a substantial amount of time / money to implement on any type of large scale (assuming that one-time boss nodes are not what would be acceptable).

Any such change would need to have a compelling reason to pursue on the part of the developers, and present an opportunity to grow the playerbase and/or their engagement.

Past changes that benefited players were likely implemented to retain interest.  Ex: Champ levels gave a reason to keep adding/collecting covers, especially the low level 2s and 3s that you get all the time.  Without champ levels, those covers are just iso and don't make you excited to keep playing and collecting them.  In addition, champ levels provided a compelling reason to keep your champed characters rostered for a longer period of time (vs selling and restarting) and increased your need for roster slots.

Saved covers similarly gave an extra reason to welcome covers vs feeling frustration about not being able to use them and being forced to sell them.

Hybrid Wins PVP was implemented because players who aren't highly involved in PVP were (still are?) not engaging in PVP much.  The reason being the thing that is often cited - it isn't fun for most players to lose points and be stuck making no progress as their roster is hit.  Wins allowed you to begin getting progression rewards, at least.

There is always a risk in shaking up the game, win conditions, etc.

While it is very true that the current PVE placement mechanic is unfair for many people, the flip side is that there are a number of players who find it works for them, and have spent on the game, and who might reduce engagement or spending if things change.  That risk explains, partly, why changes are slow or nonexistent in the game.  It is certainly possible that others would increase engagement and spending, but far from certain.

Now, my basic assessment of current PVE engagement (based on bracket flip estimates) is that SCL9 remains most popular and stable, while SCL8 is a little less popular stable, but SCL7 seems to be losing players lately.

So maybe the conditions are right for the developers to explore some other options in PVE.

Vhailorx

Spudgutter said:

Malcrof said:

i would like an option to join pvps as progression only. This way, all the competitive people can smack me around for points all they want, and my retals do nothing to them. The downside is 0 placement rewards, the upside, we can stay casual and remove all stress or need for shielding. I accidentally got a t20 finish in a pvp (yeah it happened with 3 wins, all seeds), and felt guilty about it, considering what others have to do for it, so if an option pops up to just be able to play with no red nodes removing the teams i can actually beat if i get a chance to play, would be great.

Huh

I didn't know i wanted a variation on this until you said it.  The number of wins would have to go down, 75 is still way too high.

Also weird, if you went back even 2 to 3 years ago, and looked at threads asking for pvp changes to make it more "fair," there were similar arguments that it would *never* happen.  And yet, here we are today, with wins based.  Something that I, and others in this very thread need to remember; never say never.

The number of wins is extremely unlikely to go down.  By setting it at 75, Demi is indirectly giving us info about how many people hit 1200, and how many cp they want going out the door (hint: the answer is not very many).  Demi is apparently happen with the current rate of cp distribution because they have say on it for years now. 

Accordingly, suggestions that would result in more rewards for more people are not likely to be implemented.  Unless Demi decides that it wants to inject more cp into the game for whatever reason (e.g. if they increase the 5* release rate or want to add a 6* tier).

Spudgutter

Daredevil217 said:

Spudgutter said:

abmoraz said:

Phumade said:

abmoraz said:

Phumade said:

prove me wrong.

Well, I had some well-reasoned responses ready for you, until I got to the well-known "I'm trolling" line of "Prove me wrong".  So I guess you hooked me.

/as someone else stated: under the current system, it's impossible to improve in MPQ unless people ahead of you quit or choose not to play an event.  That's not a sustainable system.

Same here.  It's always nice when someone leaves a clue to let you know they are arguing in bad faith. 

I always enjoy when these threads pop up from someone who has only been playing a couple of years and doesn't know we have been down this road before.  Someone mentioned we see these before, but different people come and go on the forum, so sometimes they have to be re-hashed for the uninitiated.  Cest la vie

Its also funny how when this thread pops up, looking for suggestions (that unfortunately plenty of us know falls on deaf ears, also already mentioned), that instead of getting suggestions, they get told how entitled or delusional they are.  Some are not even sugar coated (thank you for the decorum for those that did respond courteously).

Seriously.   Op asked if there were ways to make it more fair.  That's all.  Perfectly normal to wonder, once your roster reaches a certain point. 

I mean, i can understand the frustration. It drives me crazy in character threads when people suggest tweaks, nerfs, buffs, etc. The devs don't listen and won't take your suggestions, so save your breath.  And yet, people do.  Weird how these same people aren't in there, chastising and shouting down those threads as well, almost lending credence to the suspicion that they are only defending the status quo because they are a part of it...

What's that?  Some people who will suggest character changes are probably in here arguing or agreeing that placement shouldn't change?  This is my surprised face.

All I said was that these discussions have been had before.  Never said they should not be rehashed again.  I'm open to new suggestions, I just personally haven't seen any new ideas that haven't been mentioned in the past (and I believe each idea has its own set of issues).

I don't understand the comparison to character threads.  They have and will likely continue to rebalance characters.  5* Ock and 4* Mr. Fantastic weren't that long ago were they? Do they do it as often as some would like? Of course not.  But they do rebalance.  So people asking for character buffs seem reasonable to me, given that it is standard practice (though I'm with you on hating the calls for nerfs.  Bishop may be my one exception though, haha).

Yup, not referencing you at all.  Someone legit called op delusional, its stuff like that i was talking about.

As for the pve/character discussions, it still holds.  They have made changes to pve.  Back in the day, rewards were random, you could hit a node over and over again and not get the best reward.  Pve also used to have random numbers of nodes.  Now, the rewards are set, and you can count on 3 easy, 3 hard, and 3 essential nodes. 

They have made changes.  To pve, pvp and characters. We all have to agree on that.  What we are disagreeing on, is what caused the change(internal change to increase revenue or due to multiple posts on social media), and what the changes were inspired by (suggestions from random post on forum, or a change to a countdown tile because a new character coming out in a few months would lead to a broken combo).

Spudgutter

Vhailorx said:

Spudgutter said:

Malcrof said:

i would like an option to join pvps as progression only. This way, all the competitive people can smack me around for points all they want, and my retals do nothing to them. The downside is 0 placement rewards, the upside, we can stay casual and remove all stress or need for shielding. I accidentally got a t20 finish in a pvp (yeah it happened with 3 wins, all seeds), and felt guilty about it, considering what others have to do for it, so if an option pops up to just be able to play with no red nodes removing the teams i can actually beat if i get a chance to play, would be great.

Huh

I didn't know i wanted a variation on this until you said it.  The number of wins would have to go down, 75 is still way too high.

Also weird, if you went back even 2 to 3 years ago, and looked at threads asking for pvp changes to make it more "fair," there were similar arguments that it would *never* happen.  And yet, here we are today, with wins based.  Something that I, and others in this very thread need to remember; never say never.

The number of wins is extremely unlikely to go down.  By setting it at 75, Demi is indirectly giving us info about how many people hit 1200, and how many cp they want going out the door (hint: the answer is not very many).  Demi is apparently happen with the current rate of cp distribution because they have say on it for years now. 

Accordingly, suggestions that would result in more rewards for more people are not likely to be implemented.  Unless Demi decides that it wants to inject more cp into the game for whatever reason (e.g. if they increase the 5* release rate or want to add a 6* tier).

Sure, but i was going off the idea that there would be no placement rewards, thus no need to shield.  I would forego some rewards in one column, in order to get rewards easier in the other column.

Currently, i could do 75, get all progression rewards, and probably still place favorably. 

Find a balance where losing some rewards from placement is offset by playing less matches, and i would certainly be interested. 

Warbringa

Yeah, I really just ignore placement.  In SCL 9, I usually try to do good enough to get t50 for a 4* cover but if I end up being in a more competitive bracket I don't grind for it.  

abmoraz

Spudgutter said:

Malcrof said:

i would like an option to join pvps as progression only. This way, all the competitive people can smack me around for points all they want, and my retals do nothing to them. The downside is 0 placement rewards, the upside, we can stay casual and remove all stress or need for shielding. I accidentally got a t20 finish in a pvp (yeah it happened with 3 wins, all seeds), and felt guilty about it, considering what others have to do for it, so if an option pops up to just be able to play with no red nodes removing the teams i can actually beat if i get a chance to play, would be great.

Huh

I didn't know i wanted a variation on this until you said it.  The number of wins would have to go down, 75 is still way too high.

Also weird, if you went back even 2 to 3 years ago, and looked at threads asking for pvp changes to make it more "fair," there were similar arguments that it would *never* happen.  And yet, here we are today, with wins based.  Something that I, and others in this very thread need to remember; never say never.

The last 2 seasons, I went "win based".  Doing 5 per day gets you to 75 wins well before the end of the event.  Even better, you can skip all the "Gritty-bishop" teams and also hit the 1 pointer retaliations, knowing that you aren't hurting them even if they are playing for points.  Don't look at the point value at all.  And because there's no shielding needed, you don't need to rush your play.  I do my clears on the toilet at work or while watching TV on the couch.  Speed is no longer a factor so you can relax.

If you switch to that mindset, 75 wins is nothing.  The first season I did it I was done a week before it ended.  This season, I did my 5 each on the first 2 days, then I just retaliated against all non-gritty teams.  I was done with the 75 wins in 8 days.

abmoraz

Spudgutter said:

abmoraz said:

Phumade said:

abmoraz said:

Phumade said:

prove me wrong.

Well, I had some well-reasoned responses ready for you, until I got to the well-known "I'm trolling" line of "Prove me wrong".  So I guess you hooked me.

/as someone else stated: under the current system, it's impossible to improve in MPQ unless people ahead of you quit or choose not to play an event.  That's not a sustainable system.

Same here.  It's always nice when someone leaves a clue to let you know they are arguing in bad faith. 

I always enjoy when these threads pop up from someone who has only been playing a couple of years and doesn't know we have been down this road before.  Someone mentioned we see these before, but different people come and go on the forum, so sometimes they have to be re-hashed for the uninitiated.  Cest la vie

Its also funny how when this thread pops up, looking for suggestions (that unfortunately plenty of us know falls on deaf ears, also already mentioned), that instead of getting suggestions, they get told how entitled or delusional they are.  Some are not even sugar coated (thank you for the decorum for those that did respond courteously).

Seriously.   Op asked if there were ways to make it more fair.  That's all.  Perfectly normal to wonder, once your roster reaches a certain point. 

I mean, i can understand the frustration. It drives me crazy in character threads when people suggest tweaks, nerfs, buffs, etc. The devs don't listen and won't take your suggestions, so save your breath.  And yet, people do.  Weird how these same people aren't in there, chastising and shouting down those threads as well, almost lending credence to the suspicion that they are only defending the status quo because they are a part of it...

What's that?  Some people who will suggest character changes are probably in here arguing or agreeing that placement shouldn't change?  This is my surprised face.

My favorite are the ones that argue "this one tiny thing won't work, so never try!" or "even though you want to argue how things would be if we changed this particular item, I'm going to respond with how things are now and completely ignore the proposed improvement, so it's pointless to try!"

Sometimes it astounds me how averse and fearful some people are to change.

abmoraz

Malcrof said:

Spudgutter said:

Malcrof said:

i would like an option to join pvps as progression only. This way, all the competitive people can smack me around for points all they want, and my retals do nothing to them. The downside is 0 placement rewards, the upside, we can stay casual and remove all stress or need for shielding. I accidentally got a t20 finish in a pvp (yeah it happened with 3 wins, all seeds), and felt guilty about it, considering what others have to do for it, so if an option pops up to just be able to play with no red nodes removing the teams i can actually beat if i get a chance to play, would be great.

Huh

I didn't know i wanted a variation on this until you said it.  The number of wins would have to go down, 75 is still way too high.

Also weird, if you went back even 2 to 3 years ago, and looked at threads asking for pvp changes to make it more "fair," there were similar arguments that it would *never* happen.  And yet, here we are today, with wins based.  Something that I, and others in this very thread need to remember; never say never.

it is actually already in the game, as a punishment. 

You aren't kidding.  I specifically asked to be sandboxed several years ago.  I was told "no"

/too honest to cheat and get sandboxed for real