Placement discussion

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Comments

  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    jp1 said:
    Phumade said:

    Let me state it this way, what’s so unique about your life circumstance, that would preclude the exact same roster as yours plus 10 levels from doing your same clear pattern?
    Nothing whatsoever. My lifestyle barely permits me the ability to complete a full clear, forget about a pattern. The person with the lifestyle who can clear in an optimized pattern is unique and precludes many others from doing the same. Once again they didn’t have 10 levels on me and they took 5th while I was not in top 100.
    The only reasonable explanation (since they also did not have Thanos to cut time) is that they were able to optimize points by scheduling their clear pattern for maximum reward.

    Not everyone has that luxury. It would be nice to see a placement at some time during the lifespan of the game, but if things progress the same way those placements will continue to go to the same people every event.
    Lol. Let’s just pretend that optimal clear just happens to mirror your real life circumstances.  Do you honestly think they can’t match your schedule?  Once optimal is determined, that info goes to all players and everyone adjust accordingly.

    let me ask you this honest question.  If you could do their schedule, do you honestly think you would have beat their ranking?  I have my sincere doubts about that.

    but if you could, then you would be the better player and someone in the exact opposite schedule would complain about timing favoring you.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    Okay....this is going nowhere. 

    How is in the world would you know who is the better player? How can you possibly discount entirely the advantage of timing your clears for optimization? How do you know if that person could compete in a different environment (I never advocated for changing the times to fit my schedule)? 

    You are are very confident in your arguments which a riddled with flawed logic and prejudice. You think the only people that can compete in any manner, even one entirely different from the one they currently excel at, will instantly adapt and still come out on top. That’s ridiculous.

    This is the same as if you argued that the world champion chess player would also be the world champion at any and everything else simply because. You’re not offering any data or facts to back this assertion up, further you are completely derailing this thread from its intended course. 

    Just because someone places top 5 based on optimized clears in no way indicates that they would automatically place top 5 if the point system was centered around a different metric that others might excel at. 

    You clearly have a belief that the only reason anyone ever places in the top is because they are superior in every conceivable way and they couldn’t possibly be dethroned by any method. That is both ludicrous and demeaning to nearly the entire player base.

    Please tell me you have simply been trolling.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx said:

    The solution would be to decouple placement from speed.  But that would require rethinking mpq on a pretty fundamental level. That doesn't seem likely for a 5-year-old game.
    If it’s a measurable definable, rankable measure, players will reoptimize their rosters to maximize their gains.

    damage/turn.  Easily tuned.
    turns per match. Easily tuned.
    playevery 2 hrs.  Easily tuned.


  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2019
    jp1 said:
    Okay....this is going nowhere. 

    How is in the world would you know who is the better player? How can you possibly discount entirely the advantage of timing your clears for optimization? How do you know if that person could compete in a different environment (I never advocated for changing the times to fit my schedule)? 

    You are are very confident in your arguments which a riddled with flawed logic and prejudice. You think the only people that can compete in any manner, even one entirely different from the one they currently excel at, will instantly adapt and still come out on top. That’s ridiculous.

    This is the same as if you argued that the world champion chess player would also be the world champion at any and everything else simply because. You’re not offering any data or facts to back this assertion up, further you are completely derailing this thread from its intended course. 

    Just because someone places top 5 based on optimized clears in no way indicates that they would automatically place top 5 if the point system was centered around a different metric that others might excel at. 

    You clearly have a belief that the only reason anyone ever places in the top is because they are superior in every conceivable way and they couldn’t possibly be dethroned by any method. That is both ludicrous and demeaning to nearly the entire player base.

    Please tell me you have simply been trolling.
    You misunderstand the whole point.  Take away all the comparisons to other players and their lives. Just consider your schedule and your roster.

    and ask this simple question.  
    Would a bigger roster do the same task faster and more efficiently?  If that answer is yes, then you won’t win.

    The only assumption i make is that the player population is big enough to say that there will always exist 5 bigger rosters who can match every game decisions that I will make.

    anyone smaller than level 500 is deluding themselves into thinking they can devise a system that allows them to beat that 500 roster.

    Edit:  I think you fundamentally underestimate the size and dedication of the comp tier players.  You could eliminate any player from the game, and at least 3-4 other similarly sized / experienced rosters would immediately replace that person.  No matter what you think about "vets" retiring and and leaving the game.  there are plenty of other similarly sized rosters to step in and replace them.  The game is too old and mature to realistically think that any one roster has an advantage over another.  

    Of course,  I'd be happy to conceed that the level 500+ population is probably still under 200 players.  but the 460-480 roster is a dime a dozen now.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    If the idea was to concentrate on doing things faster and more efficiently only then yes that is a valid point. 

    Consider if bonus points could be rewarded for placing the most critical tiles, using no boosts or team ups, having a certain number of attack and protect tiles on the board at the end of a battle, never missing a match 4 or match 5, having excess AP at the end of a round, completing a wave node with the least damage incurred. These are all skills that someone cannot simply “adjust” to and even if they did, it would open those points to people at every level of play based on skill not schedule.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    jp1 said:
    If the idea was to concentrate on doing things faster and more efficiently only then yes that is a valid point. 

    Consider if bonus points could be rewarded for placing the most critical tiles, using no boosts or team ups, having a certain number of attack and protect tiles on the board at the end of a battle, never missing a match 4 or match 5, having excess AP at the end of a round, completing a wave node with the least damage incurred. These are all skills that someone cannot simply “adjust” to and even if they did, it would open those points to people at every level of play based on skill not schedule.
    Most crit tiles placed.  We already had that comp, and I'm pretty sure the guys who won it lost their information advantage the min they told the forum what teams they used.

    No boosts or TUs.   as long as that criteria was defined, then easily adjusted for.
    certain number of attack / protect?  Common now,  the guy with the biggest wrench set will always have a definitive advantage.
    Never missing a match 4/ match 5.  if that was a criteria,  I can assure you people will change how they evaluate board state to consider those criterias.
    Excess AP?  change team comps to emphasize passives and board shake.
    wave node with least damage,  emphasize the char that continously buff.

    I see a pattern in your thinking.  and the fallacy is this.  
    No matter how smart or clever  I think I am,  I know for a fact there is someone smarter with a better toolset.  I would never delude myself into thinking there is skill in a "match 3 game" that can't be duplicated by another player or surpassed by a superior roster.  Don't fall into the trap of believing you can out think your way to a better placement.  Placement scoring is about min maxing to the extreme degree and is something this playerbase does exceptionally well.

    There are very few inefficiencies in this game that aren't fully exploited (both legal and illegal), and once a concept is known and understood, its immediately copied and applied  by the rest of the top alliances.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    The pattern is this....

    Those strategies aren’t available to someone simply based on their time constraints in real life. 

    I don’t assume I would win because of a change like that, I dont assume the current top 5 would lose, I know that there would be some changes and the people with the most flexibility to their schedule wouldn’t automatically take home the bacon every time.

    Those are off the cuff quick and dirty suggestions that wouldn’t have relied on something as simple as if you can grind in the middle of the night. The point of the thread was to encourage a discussion about nuanced options that might change the game up a little, encourage more roster use, and level the field so some new people can have a fighting chance at earning placement rewards.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx said:
    I think there are two different conversations being conflated here.

    On the one hand, yes, for the vast majority of players, there will always be someone with more of the critical resource required for placement (be it time, money, cleverness, coordinated play, etc).  So thinking "if Demi just changed X, I could be a top 5 pve player" is mistaken.

    On the other hand, the current scoring system heavily emphasizes (1) having a deep, strong roster, (2) and a ton of time to devote to grinding, (3) on an optimal schedule.

    There are definitely people who are reasonably strong in (1) and (2) but are don't have the schedule flexibility for optimal play.  And it's perfectly reasonable for them to complain about the scoring quirks of current mpq.

    These two things are not mutually exclusive.
    For sure, this is an accurate representation of what is taking place here. I appreciate all the efforts to facilitate a more productive discussion.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    LOL the "Optimal schedule" is a small window that only scratches the surface of a very wide, deep player base.  .I am only at SR 198.  There are at least 200-400 players beyond me stuck at 200 (those guys probably all got banned from the forum, maybe that is a solution to age out the population.  Your account is automatically retired at 200 like Logan's run).  There were a few guys (probably less than 5, but would not surprise me if that number was in double digits) who automatically got bumped to 200 on the shield rank raise. 

    People talk all the time about Prestigeing characters.  Truthfully, that convo should be about Prestigeing entire accounts   
  • sambrookjm
    sambrookjm Posts: 2,157 Chairperson of the Boards
    BoyWonder1914 said:
    Phumade said:
    jp1 said:
    Phumade said:

    Edit:  let restate this way.  There is no way to avoid rosters that are fundamentally stronger than yours without dropping down multiple scl.  The game is mature enough that massive rosters exist throughought scl 6 and higher ( which coincidentally aligns with scl restrctions).  Even though you maybe eligible to play high level scl s, your roster and knowledge of the game is insufficient to compete for the high placement tiers.  You could certainly tweak scheduling etc, but your really just pretty caking one mega whale over another.  There is no schedule tweak that will allow a 4* roster compete against a level 470 5* player.
    I have nine 5* champs including most of the best, highest level is 472. A great deal of my roster in the 4* tier is well over 300 with many inching towards max champ. 

    How did you make these assumptions about my roster?

    Of course there are stronger rosters. There are also weaker rosters placing well above me in events because they can get up at 3am and grind.
    I have 20 5* over 460 and 40 4*over 360 and I’m considered a guppy in scl 9.
    Sheesh, if that makes you a guppy, I must be a tadpole. 

    Strange was my 12th 5-star champ about half a week ago, and my highest 4-star is GRocket at Lv. 337. I gave CL9 a go these past few events because OML and JJ happen to be 2 of my 12 champs, and boy did having a champed 5E make a WORLD of difference. Ock, Venom, and Sandman absolutely tore my 5-stars a new one in Venom Bomb when they had to pick up the slack for 2/2/1 Captain Marvel. On the contrary, the "typical" 5-star rosters I saw in those subs were clearing in 30-40 minutes tops, finishing their final grinds in like 20. I was happy to see CL9 come along and take some of the 5-star play with it before I joined that level myself, but even within that, there's a quite a disparity in roster strength. CL10 would hopefully offer rewards more appropriate for that level of play, and encourage less dropping down. 
    Piece of pond scum here, with only six champed 5-stars.  Thor is my highest at 455, with Thanos, Strange, Black Widow, Okoye, and OML).  Capt Marvel at 317 as my highest 4 star, with Devil Dinosaur next at 315.

    I can place in low 30s in SCL9 if I go crazy with the clears, although I can't play "optimally" by waking up at 11 PM Eastern Time (or staying up until 2 AM)  If the 5-star is one that I don't have a lot of covers for, I definitely drop down to SCL8. That's going to include the current Meet Rocket and Groot event where Rescue (currently sitting at 0/1/0) is the featured 5-star.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    A month or so ago, I accidentally pre-joined a 5.9 bracket.  I'm in the EDT timezone so I knew I wouldn't be staying up to play optimally.  Did my clears in the morning when I woke up (pretty early, about 4-5 hours late) and final grind about 2-3 hours before close.  Placed T20.  Slice 5 is pretty lazy.

    I don't know what the OP is hoping to see exactly or what kind of results would make him happy.

    IMO once you're not in the Top 5, (top 10 is also worth chasing if you can get into a T10 ally), it's not a huge drop if you're in T50 or T20, but of course it's nice to get extra covers.  Playing 7X in just about any slice should be T50....go to S5 and you can play on almost any schedule.  Grinding is boring and time consuming on a lot of days; just doing that grind puts you pretty high in the rankings.

    Side note:  In my just finished 1.9.3 UISO8, I finished 6th.  4th had just one champed 5, Kitty.  Everyone else above me had higher 5's than me, and there was a person below me with a 550 CM.  So the size of your roster helps to a degree, but the health pools cap out and at a certain point you aren't necessarily getting as much advantage and/or people can make up for roster deficits with boosts and/or Supports.


    The in game survey recently had a chance to give feedback about the biggest annoyances, and scheduled play was on there.  It'd be really nice to know the results, but my guess is that some of the more-selected answers won't jive with the plans/possibilities.

    I think lots of people would rather have more untimed content.  It might have been a highly selected complaint.  Some propose that placement continue, but be based on time used instead of when you play.  I'm not sure how viable or probable that actually is. 

    Making lots of conditions that somehow added points or determined placement - like number of moves, damage taken, etc....is unfortunately probably going to be really hard to make work at this point.   Some characters add conditions to their abilities and kind of emulate that idea without actually making that part of the game (ex: Wiccan rewards you for gathering extra AP and holding onto it for a bit).

    As has sort of been alluded to, the game mechanics are pretty simple and making distinctions between people for placement is going to have issues no matter how you go about it.  I'm all for interesting ideas or events that set up win conditions, though, and hope that the developers find ways to make them work.  (for now, I sort of expect them to be run through out-of-the-game avenues like the forum contests).
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    bluewolf said:

    I don't know what the OP is hoping to see exactly or what kind of results would make him happy.

    So. In general that was an interesting post, apologies for the snip...but, I feel like even though the point has been beaten to death it has also been lost. 

    Quite simply, I don’t care if people will still find a way to “min-max” their way to the top if things change. I just would like to see some opportunities for people with less options for scheduling their life around a video game to still see those rewards sometimes. 

    It’s debatable if that will make a difference in who actually achieves placement, but to me that is irrelevant. The point is that simply playing the game to the best of your ability -could- gain you placement rewards. 

    I don’t expect to go join the NFL and be MVP my first game, or necessarily ever. The only thing that prevents it though (aside from talent and luck) is how hard I would be willing to work at it. 

    Currently, I’m locked out of placement no matter what I do. Unless, of course, I burn my life to the ground making irresponsible choices with my time. It seems kind of stupid to have it set up that way. 

    Mainly, I wanted to hear suggestions for possible change from like minded folks. Reasonable arguments for keeping it the same are welcome as well of course.
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    i don't play optimally and still finish top 50 most pve events. i don't expect nor do i deserve better placement rewards. if you can't play optimally you don't either. in no way should the game reward you equally as someone who plays more/more efficiently/more optimally. that's the way the current structure of the game is. 

    i think what you're looking for are different, non-competitive, untimed (to a degree) game modes where the rewards are commensurate to your roster and how you use it rather than the times during the day you are able to play.  
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    jredd said:
    i don't play optimally and still finish top 50 most pve events. i don't expect nor do i deserve better placement rewards. if you can't play optimally you don't either. in no way should the game reward you equally as someone who plays more/more efficiently/more optimally. that's the way the current structure of the game is. 

    i think what you're looking for are different, non-competitive, untimed (to a degree) game modes where the rewards are commensurate to your roster and how you use it rather than the times during the day you are able to play.  
    At what point did it seem like I felt I deserved better placement rewards? This is getting silly. I’m aware of the current game structure. I think it is a bad structure that doesn’t afford equal opportunities to the player base. 

    No entitlement. Just an opinion.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    abmoraz said:
    Phumade said:

    I see a pattern in your thinking.  and the fallacy is this.  
    No matter how smart or clever  I think I am,  I know for a fact there is someone smarter with a better toolset.  I would never delude myself into thinking there is skill in a "match 3 game" that can't be duplicated by another player or surpassed by a superior roster.  Don't fall into the trap of believing you can out think your way to a better placement.  Placement scoring is about min maxing to the extreme degree and is something this playerbase does exceptionally well.
    This is the best thing you said all thread.  The rest was mostly condescending schlock because you came to this conclusion before he did (Congrats on that placement reward, i guess?).

    However, the "solution" to drop down Shield Levels is a "Locality Fallacy".  It does nothing to increase the rewards.  All it does is change who gets them.  By dropping down and claiming a placement reward at a level below what your roster "should", you are displacing someone else who would've gotten that reward.  The problem isn't solved, it's just moved, but that is the underlying problem with placement awards in general.  Every placement system ever is going to reward the ones who can best abuse the system.

    I will say this, you are correct in everything you have said... but that is ONLY if things stay the same, and by that, I mean that "placement rewards stay in the ratios that they currently are and are determined by a consistent set of criteria that does not reasonably change from event to event."

    The MOMENT that either of the above criteria change, your assertions are no longer correct (at least in the short term).  As soon as the criteria changes from "Who can clear the fastest at very specific times", the winners will change ... for a while.  Eventually some will figure out the "new bestest way" to min-max, but until then, it adds some fun and Mystique (eh?! eh!?) back into a dull and overly grindy game.

    My personal desire would be if they changed the scoring for the nodes with each season and put the "Puzzle" into 'Puzzle Quest'.  Some examples could be:
    Time Season: Just like it is today.  Fastest wins
    Power Season: You don't have to win each node, but you only get 10 moves for each node.  Total damage for the node is your score after those 10 moves.  Double it if you win, half it if you are defeated.
    Reality Season: You pick a team from your roster, but it's 50/50 as to whether you play as as the enemy characters or your team (meaning you'll want to pick a team that you can win with, or that you could beat, if you were the NPCs)
    Space Season: the board shuffles after each move.  You get 10 moves and you get 1 point per stone removed.  If you die, you get nothing for that node.  If you win, you get a bonus 64 (the entire board).
    Soul Season: you can only use any given character on your roster for 1 node per sub (so it would take ~30 characters to clear each sub)
    Mind Season: 1 power for each character you take is disabled once the battle starts.  You don't know which power it will be until the match starts.  Win or lose, you don't get to replay the node (only 6 runs per node) so that you can't use the "surrender" option to shuffle which powers are removed.

    By changing the "Win Conditions" fairly regularly, you make it tougher on the min-max players.  It won't make it impossible, but it does slow them down and open the game up to others.

    /In all reality, I'd prefer Placement Awards go away entirely and the progression awards increased slightly to compensate, but will never happen for several reasons that would make this post even longer than it already is.
    Sorry I have to burst everyone's need for a positive space bubble.  I came to those conclusions, because I've seen all these exact same issues discussed in the same forum, by literally the exact same names, pushing for a change that they think will be advantageous to them.  For the longest time,  I just thought Jp1 was the other guy with the same initials just swapped around (and the forum vets all know what I'm referring to).

    Maybe people should just read up and remember what actually has been rehashed to death, vs discussing the same topic/issues with different verbiage.  Really its all just the same convo, different thread name.  I feel like the sooner we re-educate the newer members about long standing issues, the better people can focus on actually improving their rosters and play styles.

    Fine, Fine change the criteria every season.  It will get discussed in all the various alliance rooms as per normal.  Just don't imagine that anything new or novel is being discussed..  As long as information is clear consistent and wide disseminated to all tiers of play,  its fine by me.  The best rosters/most experienced players will adapt and adjust their play accordingly.

    The only way you will ever change the placement positions is by hiding the criteria that decides placement and changing it randomly every event.   We all know players that have tokens to every event created and can tell us long before Brigby's sneak peak, what events got changed and what graphics are loaded.  Honestly, most of the comp players can already tell when a roster gets sold/transfered/loaned/played by a different person based on how fast they hit, who they hit and what teams they use.  On the PVE side,  there is a mpq wikipedia that tells you what characters were featured and at what levels blah blah blah.

    For the people who don't know,  just go look at the master spreadsheets.  You can see exactly how many points possible, what order to clear etc etc...

    Lets be super honest and just say "If they run something more than twice"  We'll have a pattern than can be analyzed, and that pattern will then alter future play or spend patterns.  People already complain when the release orders get tweaked, (and that doesn't even effect the big roster)

    Bottom Line, Unless you change Win conditions to essentially random unknowable conditions, it will be min maxed within 3 appearances.  (enough to determine a hypothesis and then verify it).
    .
    prove me wrong.
  • _Vitto
    _Vitto Posts: 113 Tile Toppler
    edited June 2019
    ...
    jp1 said:

    At what point did it seem like I felt I deserved better placement rewards? This is getting silly. I’m aware of the current game structure. I think it is a bad structure that doesn’t afford equal opportunities to the player base. 

    No entitlement. Just an opinion.
    The structure of the game provides equal opportunities to players who invest the same amount of money/time/strategy/roster adjustments.
    It does not provide the same equality if any of those criteria is different with respect to the other player. And that's how it should be.

    jp1 said:

    If that’s the case then something needs to be done to level the field a bit so people can continue to progress in the 5* game. Someone with a roster full of 550 5s doesn’t need placement rewards. Maybe group everyone similarly to what you see in PVP.

    This is ****. Everybody needs placement rewards if he/she wants to progress in this game, regardless of roster level. 

    If a player has 550s it means he/she invested money, effort and time more than I did in the game. Why should it be fair to level the player base? To make his/her efforts useless?
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards


    jp1 said:

    If that’s the case then something needs to be done to level the field a bit so people can continue to progress in the 5* game. Someone with a roster full of 550 5s doesn’t need placement rewards. Maybe group everyone similarly to what you see in PVP.

    This is tinykitty. Everybody needs placement rewards if he/she wants to progress in this game, regardless of roster level. 

    If a player has 550s it means he/she invested money, effort and time more than I did in the game. Why should it be fair to level the player base? To make his/her efforts useless?
    Remember roster-based scaling.
    Thank god the devs stopped subscribing to the "leveling the playing field" doctrine.
    I still can't believe it that roster-based scaling was a thing for so long - why would I play something that never gives me a feeling of accomplishment, because the difficulty is always the same, no matter how much I improve my roster.

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