Gritty - nerf, or counter?

ThaRoadWarrior

DAZ0273 said:

Polares said:

Colognoisseur said:

I champed Sabertooth last night and then took him into Sim to take on Bishop Gritty. Those matches are now easy. Get the right cascade and you can win on turn 1; I did twice. Sabertooth is a complete counter to Gritty play the powers correctly paired with Okoye and the strike tiles will be gone then it is just a matter of getting six red to kill what's left.

I much prefer this solution than nerfing. If you want to beat Gritty you have a couple of solutions now.

You might have a very high level SB, but the problem for most people 

I sincerely doubt that what you refer to as "most people" is in fact "most people" in MPQ terms.

It may be more germane to that example than to the one where he said "most of us have 70+ ranked 4s" lol

DAZ0273

ThaRoadWarrior said:

DAZ0273 said:

Polares said:

Colognoisseur said:

I champed Sabertooth last night and then took him into Sim to take on Bishop Gritty. Those matches are now easy. Get the right cascade and you can win on turn 1; I did twice. Sabertooth is a complete counter to Gritty play the powers correctly paired with Okoye and the strike tiles will be gone then it is just a matter of getting six red to kill what's left.

I much prefer this solution than nerfing. If you want to beat Gritty you have a couple of solutions now.

You might have a very high level SB, but the problem for most people 

I sincerely doubt that what you refer to as "most people" is in fact "most people" in MPQ terms.

It may be more germane to that example than to the one where he said "most of us have 70+ ranked 4s" lol

Yeah, I mean if it had been 35 then fair enough! 😋😂

tiomono

KGB said:

Polares said:

You might have a very high level SB, but the problem for most people is that if you use a 4 to counter Gritty you are going to be eaten alive by 5 teams.

Of course, countering GRitty with a 5 is much harder as most people need A LOT of time to get a 5 into usable level.

That is why Rocket should be nerfed. All games nerf characters, and nerfing a 4 is not a big deal when most of us have 70+ ranked 4s.

And for those that say Gritty is the only thing that makes PvE bearable I say, maybe the problem is not nerfin Rocket, is PvE, maybe you should concentrate on asking Devs into making PvE fun (even though this would not happen after 5 years). Also, what happens then with the people that doesn't have Gritty, you have a MASIIVE advantage over them in PvE (and Kitty is not erasy to get).

Again, NERF ROCKET.

Sure, but then if they suddenly released a new 3* character who did something similar to 4* Rocket (say this new 3* started with 7 strike tiles but only strength 25 so it's quite weak) we'd be right back here having this discussion because that new character would be paired with Kitty doing the exact same runaway buff problem because Kitty would be adding thousands of strength per turn to those weak strikes.

If there is going to be a nerf (and I'm against it) the least painful thing to do is change Kittys buff so that on specials created by 4* and below characters it only buffs at 1/3 the rate and buffs at regular rate on specials created by 5* characters. Voila, problem solved not only with Rocket but every other 4* and below character (Carnage for example) and any future character in the 4* an below tier while leaving her untouched in the 5* tier (which is presumably what you are hoping for as a 5* player).

My personal guess is there won't be a nerf because there is no history of nerfing synergies between characters (otherwise Charlies Angels would have been nerfed years ago). All the Nerfs (Gambit, OML, 3* Fist, 3* Rags, 4* Wolvie, 4* Thoress and the rest I haven't listed) were on characters who were over powered in their own right with no partner needed. Nerfing this combo would set a new precedent that would immediately spark a cry for a  nerf to the Thorkoye synergy which would then spark a cry for the next synergy. Hence I don't see it happening.

KGB

Mystique was nerfed because of a synergy.

DAZ0273

KGB said:

Polares said:

You might have a very high level SB, but the problem for most people is that if you use a 4 to counter Gritty you are going to be eaten alive by 5 teams.

Of course, countering GRitty with a 5 is much harder as most people need A LOT of time to get a 5 into usable level.

That is why Rocket should be nerfed. All games nerf characters, and nerfing a 4 is not a big deal when most of us have 70+ ranked 4s.

And for those that say Gritty is the only thing that makes PvE bearable I say, maybe the problem is not nerfin Rocket, is PvE, maybe you should concentrate on asking Devs into making PvE fun (even though this would not happen after 5 years). Also, what happens then with the people that doesn't have Gritty, you have a MASIIVE advantage over them in PvE (and Kitty is not erasy to get).

Again, NERF ROCKET.

Sure, but then if they suddenly released a new 3* character who did something similar to 4* Rocket (say this new 3* started with 7 strike tiles but only strength 25 so it's quite weak) we'd be right back here having this discussion because that new character would be paired with Kitty doing the exact same runaway buff problem because Kitty would be adding thousands of strength per turn to those weak strikes.

If there is going to be a nerf (and I'm against it) the least painful thing to do is change Kittys buff so that on specials created by 4* and below characters it only buffs at 1/3 the rate and buffs at regular rate on specials created by 5* characters. Voila, problem solved not only with Rocket but every other 4* and below character (Carnage for example) and any future character in the 4* an below tier while leaving her untouched in the 5* tier (which is presumably what you are hoping for as a 5* player).

My personal guess is there won't be a nerf because there is no history of nerfing synergies between characters (otherwise Charlies Angels would have been nerfed years ago). All the Nerfs (Gambit, OML, 3* Fist, 3* Rags, 4* Wolvie, 4* Thoress and the rest I haven't listed) were on characters who were over powered in their own right with no partner needed. Nerfing this combo would set a new precedent that would immediately spark a cry for a  nerf to the Thorkoye synergy which would then spark a cry for the next synergy. Hence I don't see it happening.

KGB

Actually Charlie's Angels did get nerfed via Scarlet Witch but her nerf got reversed I seem to remember? Or am I mis-remembering?

ThaRoadWarrior

The 3* Gambit nerf was because at 0/0/5 he was the lynchpin of the unbeatable Thing/Spider-gwen/Gambattery team, the reason given at the time was that no character should be better partially built than fully built. 

Straycat

I think they would be better off making new stores based on the existing counters. Best 5* gritty counter is BSSM, Daredevil, or maybe Rescue. (or your own kitty) Put them in a store together. BSSM and Daredevil actually have decent synergy too, so pairing them against gritty could be a nice option if people had access to them. 
Creating specific hard counters I think in general are a bad idea. Characters should be somewhat usable with any pairing or enemy, hard counters just limit that. 

KGB

DAZ0273 said:

KGB said:

My personal guess is there won't be a nerf because there is no history of nerfing synergies between characters (otherwise Charlies Angels would have been nerfed years ago). All the Nerfs (Gambit, OML, 3* Fist, 3* Rags, 4* Wolvie, 4* Thoress and the rest I haven't listed) were on characters who were over powered in their own right with no partner needed. Nerfing this combo would set a new precedent that would immediately spark a cry for a  nerf to the Thorkoye synergy which would then spark a cry for the next synergy. Hence I don't see it happening.

KGB

Actually Charlie's Angels did get nerfed via Scarlet Witch but her nerf got reversed I seem to remember? Or am I mis-remembering?

They did get nerfed because they changed Switches ability to put her Purple on TU tiles. That change wasn't for Charlies Angels though, it just was just mean to be to her skill (since it was worded as basic tiles instead of any tile) and it hurt that team as a side affect. It has since been reversed (since it really wrecked her value) so Charlies Angels is back functioning as it originally did.


@tiomono - I don't remember Mystique's nerf and the synergy reasoning behind it.  Do you recall what and why it was done? Had 4*s been released yet or was the game still in the 3* phase. It would be strange to nerf Rocket as a 2 1/2 year old character who is now 1 tier below where the game is.

KGB

tiomono

@KGB

I forget the specifics. She had a winfinite combo with modern magneto I think. Her blue was the key I think. Around page 14 of her character details thread you can see people talking about firing 17 masterstrokes in one turn. They were taking down all manner of stronger opponents. So because of a synergy between a 3* and 2*, they nerfed a 3*. Your scary precedent is already in the game. 

Kolence

The key was 2* Magneto's purple, which was similar to 3* Widow's, only making 1 blue tile fewer. I think. So it was 9 purple to choose 5 blue tiles (no adding any red tiles) which would almost always give 9+ blue right away, but usually much more. Then Mystique would use 9 blue to make black and purple, usually twice in a row, and so on.

sambrookjm

KGB said:

My personal guess is there won't be a nerf because there is no history of nerfing synergies between characters (otherwise Charlies Angels would have been nerfed years ago). All the Nerfs (Gambit, OML, 3* Fist, 3* Rags, 4* Wolvie, 4* Thoress and the rest I haven't listed) were on characters who were over powered in their own right with no partner needed. Nerfing this combo would set a new precedent that would immediately spark a cry for a  nerf to the Thorkoye synergy which would then spark a cry for the next synergy. Hence I don't see it happening.

KGB

Charlie's Angels (Scarlet Witch, 3-star Widow, and Prof X for those of you who didn't know) was nerfed, but it was a much stealthier nerf than what happened with OML or Gambit.  With a match-5, Prof X generates five AP in your team's strongest color.  Originally, with a champed Prof X, that was Purple, which would let you continually activate Black Widow's purple to make match 5 green, and do incredible amounts of damage.

No changes were made to any of the character's abilities.  However, Prof X's damages were changed so that his most "powerful" color was blue rather than purple.  This means that Scarlet Witch's match 5 from her passive generated lots of blue mana, which nobody on Charlie's Angels could actually use.  It nerfed the interaction between the three characters, but nothing else was really affected.

My two cents would be to change Rocket so that he puts down a repeater tile that puts out a new strike tile every X turns.  Make it a fortified repeater at LVL 5 if you want.  It would slow down the Gritty team, but not completely wreck it.

HoundofShadow

There are even better counters to Gritty or specifically, R4G now: 4* Thanos and Sabretooth.

Is a nerf to R4G still necessary?

abenness

I saved for 6 months to break my hoard for Kitty, she is my only 5*, and my dozen 4* champs are < 280.

If Kitty or Grocket are nerfed, what then? 

Are you saying that I'm not worthy to play for placement anymore? 

SCL 7, 8 and 9 placement is all filled by 5* teams - without Kitty or Okoye or 5Thanos I very much doubt anyone could reasonably compete in PVE, and likewise you need Kitty or Okoye or a pair of other 5* in PVP.

Where are the comments from people saying (for example):

Let's change Okoye black so it does a fixed amount of damage boost once you meet a threshold of teamups held
Let's change Thor so he only starts gathering AP once he reaches half of his *starting* health for that given battle (instead of his max health)

Top players are pretty happy after using Sabretooth with Okoye. Personally, I think this is a pretty good counter-team to Gritty, and certainly more achievable to cover than BSSM (given a lot have Okoye already).  But I'm disappointed that there isn't a good path for me to better cover my 0/0/1 Okoye myself. Hoard and wait for a store I guess.


What I would like to see:

The odds in the 5* stores to change: in the 1:7 change of a 5*, how about a 25% chance for each of the featured toons, and a 25% chance of a single cover of your favourite (or even 30% chance each featured, and 10% chance of a favourite). These odds could revert once you have 15 covers total, to prevent people using it to get 550's.

I want options besides Gritty, and I'm not sure where they will come from.

Tylander45

sambrookjm said:

KGB said:

My personal guess is there won't be a nerf because there is no history of nerfing synergies between characters (otherwise Charlies Angels would have been nerfed years ago). All the Nerfs (Gambit, OML, 3* Fist, 3* Rags, 4* Wolvie, 4* Thoress and the rest I haven't listed) were on characters who were over powered in their own right with no partner needed. Nerfing this combo would set a new precedent that would immediately spark a cry for a  nerf to the Thorkoye synergy which would then spark a cry for the next synergy. Hence I don't see it happening.

KGB

Charlie's Angels (Scarlet Witch, 3-star Widow, and Prof X for those of you who didn't know) was nerfed, but it was a much stealthier nerf than what happened with OML or Gambit.  With a match-5, Prof X generates five AP in your team's strongest color.  Originally, with a champed Prof X, that was Purple, which would let you continually activate Black Widow's purple to make match 5 green, and do incredible amounts of damage.

No changes were made to any of the character's abilities.  However, Prof X's damages were changed so that his most "powerful" color was blue rather than purple.  This means that Scarlet Witch's match 5 from her passive generated lots of blue mana, which nobody on Charlie's Angels could actually use.  It nerfed the interaction between the three characters, but nothing else was really affected.

My two cents would be to change Rocket so that he puts down a repeater tile that puts out a new strike tile every X turns.  Make it a fortified repeater at LVL 5 if you want.  It would slow down the Gritty team, but not completely wreck it.

I think your explanation for charlie’s angels may be a little off.

If I remember correctly, you had to keep prof x at a low enough level so that BW’s purple was stronger than his blue.  That why some people kept a dupe prof x that was low, to keep angels intact.  They never changed the strength of his colors, rather as he leveled up, he merely took over BW.

KGB

sambrookjm said:

KGB said:

My personal guess is there won't be a nerf because there is no history of nerfing synergies between characters (otherwise Charlies Angels would have been nerfed years ago). All the Nerfs (Gambit, OML, 3* Fist, 3* Rags, 4* Wolvie, 4* Thoress and the rest I haven't listed) were on characters who were over powered in their own right with no partner needed. Nerfing this combo would set a new precedent that would immediately spark a cry for a  nerf to the Thorkoye synergy which would then spark a cry for the next synergy. Hence I don't see it happening.

KGB

Charlie's Angels (Scarlet Witch, 3-star Widow, and Prof X for those of you who didn't know) was nerfed, but it was a much stealthier nerf than what happened with OML or Gambit.  With a match-5, Prof X generates five AP in your team's strongest color.  Originally, with a champed Prof X, that was Purple, which would let you continually activate Black Widow's purple to make match 5 green, and do incredible amounts of damage.

No changes were made to any of the character's abilities.  However, Prof X's damages were changed so that his most "powerful" color was blue rather than purple.  This means that Scarlet Witch's match 5 from her passive generated lots of blue mana, which nobody on Charlie's Angels could actually use.  It nerfed the interaction between the three characters, but nothing else was really affected.

My two cents would be to change Rocket so that he puts down a repeater tile that puts out a new strike tile every X turns.  Make it a fortified repeater at LVL 5 if you want.  It would slow down the Gritty team, but not completely wreck it.

Thanks for that explanation. Now I know why so many players were keeping an underleveled Prof X on their roster so that GSBW's Purple was the teams strongest color so that the team could continue to function despite the stealth Nerf (which technically fixed a bug since normally the first color is the strongest and his 1st is Blue)

Your Rocket change is laughable. It would make him a bottom 5 4* character even if it was 1 strike per turn given how weak his other 2 powers are. Plus you would murder PvE for untold number of players by making our clear times increase dramatically (when I champed Rocket my clear times were cut in half and despite not being competitive I am absolutely not adding an extra 45 minutes a day to my clear times just to solve PvP Gritty for <5% of the PvP players).  The compensation for a change like this would have to be a new support for 4* Grocket that put down 7 initial strikes and every player with Grocket on their roster got this support plus the Red ISO needed to level to 250 so that PvE was unaffected.

KGB

sambrookjm

abenness said:

I saved for 6 months to break my hoard for Kitty, she is my only 5*, and my dozen 4* champs are < 280.

If Kitty or Grocket are nerfed, what then? 

Are you saying that I'm not worthy to play for placement anymore? 

Are you saying that people without a 5-star Kitty are "not worthy to play for placement anymore?"  Like many people, I busted a good chunk of my token hoard for Kitty, and all I got was a 1/1/1 out of the deal.  She's my 5-star bonus hero, but you know how frequently those pop up.

As for playing for placement, I just finished #11 in Deadpool vs MPQ in SCL8.   Even without Kitty, it was close.  I missed out on a Magik cover by about 300 points.  Of the ten people ahead of me, only two of them had a champed Kitty (#1 and #8)

KGB said:

Your Rocket change is laughable. It would make him a bottom 5 4* character even if it was 1 strike per turn given how weak his other 2 powers are. Plus you would murder PvE for untold number of players by making our clear times increase dramatically (when I champed Rocket my clear times were cut in half and despite not being competitive I am absolutely not adding an extra 45 minutes a day to my clear times just to solve PvP Gritty for <5% of the PvP players).  The compensation for a change like this would have to be a new support for 4* Grocket that put down 7 initial strikes and every player with Grocket on their roster got this support plus the Red ISO needed to level to 250 so that PvE was unaffected.

Then improve his other two abilities.  Lower the cost of his blue to 8, lower his green to 7.  Make his repeater tiles fortified.  Increase the strength of the one-per-turn strike tiles.  Just because one ability gets nerfed doesn't mean that the others can't also be improved at the same time.  The complete change to Mr F is an example of just how much they can screw with a character in one sitting.  At the opposite end of the rework spectrum, 4-star Wasp dramatically improved after she was fixed.

Polares

KGB said:

Polares said:

You might have a very high level SB, but the problem for most people is that if you use a 4 to counter Gritty you are going to be eaten alive by 5 teams.

Of course, countering GRitty with a 5 is much harder as most people need A LOT of time to get a 5 into usable level.

That is why Rocket should be nerfed. All games nerf characters, and nerfing a 4 is not a big deal when most of us have 70+ ranked 4s.

And for those that say Gritty is the only thing that makes PvE bearable I say, maybe the problem is not nerfin Rocket, is PvE, maybe you should concentrate on asking Devs into making PvE fun (even though this would not happen after 5 years). Also, what happens then with the people that doesn't have Gritty, you have a MASIIVE advantage over them in PvE (and Kitty is not erasy to get).

Again, NERF ROCKET.

Sure, but then if they suddenly released a new 3* character who did something similar to 4* Rocket (say this new 3* started with 7 strike tiles but only strength 25 so it's quite weak) we'd be right back here having this discussion because that new character would be paired with Kitty doing the exact same runaway buff problem because Kitty would be adding thousands of strength per turn to those weak strikes.

If there is going to be a nerf (and I'm against it) the least painful thing to do is change Kittys buff so that on specials created by 4* and below characters it only buffs at 1/3 the rate and buffs at regular rate on specials created by 5* characters. Voila, problem solved not only with Rocket but every other 4* and below character (Carnage for example) and any future character in the 4* an below tier while leaving her untouched in the 5* tier (which is presumably what you are hoping for as a 5* player).

My personal guess is there won't be a nerf because there is no history of nerfing synergies between characters (otherwise Charlies Angels would have been nerfed years ago). All the Nerfs (Gambit, OML, 3* Fist, 3* Rags, 4* Wolvie, 4* Thoress and the rest I haven't listed) were on characters who were over powered in their own right with no partner needed. Nerfing this combo would set a new precedent that would immediately spark a cry for a  nerf to the Thorkoye synergy which would then spark a cry for the next synergy. Hence I don't see it happening.

KGB

They nerfed Magneto+Wolvie (even though Magneto was broken on its own). Also 2 Thor+Wolvie were nerfed. As some people have mentioned, Mystique. You can say 3 Gambit (the 0/5/0 battery version). And there was somebody else like Mysitique that was nerfed for his interaction with somebody else, but I can't remember who it was...

I don't think Charlie's angels is a fair comparison. First of all, they were VERY slow, and second you could still lose a char against very high level enemies before you got the team to work, And finally you had to be clever, you had to be smart while playing, maximizing you match-5s to get the most damage and AP back. 

Gritty is SUPER fast and it is a team that can be played by a monkey. You dont need to do anything (this is also why is so good on defense).

Regarding the nerf, thing is, there should never be a char, either in 3, 4 or 5 land, that passively, at the start of the game creates so many special tiles. That was a really BAD move. And there is no other char that gets even close to Rocket. Rocket MUST be nerfed because it is clearly broken. Even before Kitty, he was the go to char in 4 land for fast matches. Kitty just made it worse (way worse).

Devs should be EXTREMELY careful about passives and "start of the game" abilities, and they have not. The game now is at its worst it has ever been, because matches are super boring, as you don't need to do anything to win. Just casually match tiles. The first step to fix this is nerfing Rocket.


They should also change the 5 clear per node needed to get max CP in PvE to 4 as it used to be. This was a really dumb move that has hurt the game A LOT, and the main reason why most people, even though they now that Gritty is clearly broken, they dont want them nerfed.

abenness

sambrookjm said:

abenness said:

I saved for 6 months to break my hoard for Kitty, she is my only 5*, and my dozen 4* champs are < 280.

If Kitty or Grocket are nerfed, what then? 

Are you saying that I'm not worthy to play for placement anymore? 

Are you saying that people without a 5-star Kitty are "not worthy to play for placement anymore?"  Like many people, I busted a good chunk of my token hoard for Kitty, and all I got was a 1/1/1 out of the deal.  She's my 5-star bonus hero, but you know how frequently those pop up.

As for playing for placement, I just finished #11 in Deadpool vs MPQ in SCL8.   Even without Kitty, it was close.  I missed out on a Magik cover by about 300 points.  Of the ten people ahead of me, only two of them had a champed Kitty (#1 and #8)

The way I worded that was bad, sorry! 

The difficulty is multi-fold:
1. having the capacity to break into the 5* level,
2. and then being able to target that at 5* toons that are worthwhile


A separate issue is having the top placement positions with the best rewards dominated by 5* players at each level

tiomono

Polares said:

KGB said:

Polares said:

You might have a very high level SB, but the problem for most people is that if you use a 4 to counter Gritty you are going to be eaten alive by 5 teams.

Of course, countering GRitty with a 5 is much harder as most people need A LOT of time to get a 5 into usable level.

That is why Rocket should be nerfed. All games nerf characters, and nerfing a 4 is not a big deal when most of us have 70+ ranked 4s.

And for those that say Gritty is the only thing that makes PvE bearable I say, maybe the problem is not nerfin Rocket, is PvE, maybe you should concentrate on asking Devs into making PvE fun (even though this would not happen after 5 years). Also, what happens then with the people that doesn't have Gritty, you have a MASIIVE advantage over them in PvE (and Kitty is not erasy to get).

Again, NERF ROCKET.

Sure, but then if they suddenly released a new 3* character who did something similar to 4* Rocket (say this new 3* started with 7 strike tiles but only strength 25 so it's quite weak) we'd be right back here having this discussion because that new character would be paired with Kitty doing the exact same runaway buff problem because Kitty would be adding thousands of strength per turn to those weak strikes.

If there is going to be a nerf (and I'm against it) the least painful thing to do is change Kittys buff so that on specials created by 4* and below characters it only buffs at 1/3 the rate and buffs at regular rate on specials created by 5* characters. Voila, problem solved not only with Rocket but every other 4* and below character (Carnage for example) and any future character in the 4* an below tier while leaving her untouched in the 5* tier (which is presumably what you are hoping for as a 5* player).

My personal guess is there won't be a nerf because there is no history of nerfing synergies between characters (otherwise Charlies Angels would have been nerfed years ago). All the Nerfs (Gambit, OML, 3* Fist, 3* Rags, 4* Wolvie, 4* Thoress and the rest I haven't listed) were on characters who were over powered in their own right with no partner needed. Nerfing this combo would set a new precedent that would immediately spark a cry for a  nerf to the Thorkoye synergy which would then spark a cry for the next synergy. Hence I don't see it happening.

KGB

They nerfed Magneto+Wolvie (even though Magneto was broken on its own). Also 2 Thor+Wolvie were nerfed. As some people have mentioned, Mystique. You can say 3 Gambit (the 0/5/0 battery version). And there was somebody else like Mysitique that was nerfed for his interaction with somebody else, but I can't remember who it was...

I don't think Charlie's angels is a fair comparison. First of all, they were VERY slow, and second you could still lose a char against very high level enemies before you got the team to work, And finally you had to be clever, you had to be smart while playing, maximizing you match-5s to get the most damage and AP back. 

Gritty is SUPER fast and it is a team that can be played by a monkey. You dont need to do anything (this is also why is so good on defense).

Regarding the nerf, thing is, there should never be a char, either in 3, 4 or 5 land, that passively, at the start of the game creates so many special tiles. That was a really BAD move. And there is no other char that gets even close to Rocket. Rocket MUST be nerfed because it is clearly broken. Even before Kitty, he was the go to char in 4 land for fast matches. Kitty just made it worse (way worse).

Devs should be EXTREMELY careful about passives and "start of the game" abilities, and they have not. The game now is at its worst it has ever been, because matches are super boring, as you don't need to do anything to win. Just casually match tiles. The first step to fix this is nerfing Rocket.


They should also change the 5 clear per node needed to get max CP in PvE to 4 as it used to be. This was a really dumb move that has hurt the game A LOT, and the main reason why most people, even though they now that Gritty is clearly broken, they dont want them nerfed.

Why do you have to exaggerate so much and insult people to try and make your point? 

"Gritty is SUPER fast and it is a team that can be played by a monkey. You dont need to do anything (this is also why is so good on defense)."

Do you have gritty? You definitely have to do something to win with them. There is another player that commented above you. They got 11th in the last event only number one and eight had champed kitty. Now he doesn't say if the rest had unchamped kitty or even had kitty at all. I dont know. But it's clearly possible to still outpace kitty if you put in the work.

They are not "so good on defense" because there have been several counter characters made specifically to punish grocket. And the meta duo before them, thorkoye, still is an effective team against them. If you have the counter characters you can actually breeze through the "clearly broken" gritty teams.

If gritty is in fact that "clearly broken" you should not need to exaggerate to try and make your point.

Edit: Removed what I decided was an inappropriate statement.

Malcrof

Please remain civil, or the thread goes away, only warning. 

ThaRoadWarrior

Hyperbole aside, it IS a strong defense team. As was Rocket/Medusa/Gamora before it (and probably still at some tiers of play).

If it didn't go to work on opponent turn 1, I don't think we'd be having these problems or discussions. If Rocket worked like Carnage, where he spit out friendly and enemy strikes every turn (rather than battle start), we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Same as if he worked like Daken or Ronin, where matching a certain color created strikes. Or C&D (or blade) where the shape of the board would create strikes based on the prevalence of a certain color. Rather than adjusting the cost of the strike, make them exist on turn 1 or not based on the presence of another guardian. that would incentivize people to include some non-Bishop 3rd in simulator.