Gritty - nerf, or counter?

Dormammu
Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
in MPQ General Discussion
Do you need to climb to 900 for a 4-star cover in PvP? Run Gritty. Do you want to quickly clear out some PvP seed teams? Use Gritty. Need to hit 2000 in SHIELD Sim? Gritty is your team. Want to place higher in PvE? Don't bother with the boosted 5-star, just put Gritty with your Thanos. Basically, if you want to play faster and easier in MPQ, kitty and 4-star Rocket & Groot are the ideal choice in almost all aspects of the game.

That's a problem, for some. (Others like it, or don't care.)

We've had problems similar to this in the past. I don't need to explain to anyone who has played MPQ for any significant time about the Old Man Logan and Gambit situations. But this time around is a little different, especially in how the developers are reacting - specifically hard counters. OML has his healing nerfed because he was saving players from the use of health packs. Simple as that. There was nothing to really counter with him. The developers tried a couple characters, like Archangel, to counter Gambit. But he was so bad the only thing Archangel countered was the player's desire to open legendary tokens. In the end, the only thing that could counter Gambit was Gambit, so he got nerfed.

It's obvious to everyone involved that Gritty is everywhere. That's a good and bad thing for both players and developers alike. For us players, it means less grind and easier rewards (the good) if you have Kitty, but far less variety in PvP (the bad). And if you don't have Kitty, you want her - which is good for developers because they can continue plugging her into these special stores and make some coin, but if you don't have Kitty as a player it can be tougher to compete at a high level - which is bad for developers because players start crying foul.

It has become clear that the developers want to avoid nerfing Kitty (or Rocket & Groot) at all costs based on many of the recent new releases. Rather than resort to what would be an undoubtedly unpopular nerf and avoid making the forums explode (as fun as that might be to watch), they're scrambling to give us counters. Tools to use against Gritty. Consider some of these recent releases:

Bishop If enemy is running Gritty, he'll stun
Dazzler Black removes enemy special tiles
Hela Red replaces enemy special tiles
Magik Red ability removes specials
Prowler Purple steals specials, blue damages based on enemy specials
Rescue Blue and red abilities affect enemy specials
Sabretooth Green and black abilities damage based on enemy strike tiles
Thanos Blue removes specials, green damages based on enemy specials

Some of these characters (specifically Prowler, Thanos, & Sabretooth) blatantly scream, "Use me against Gritty!"

I'm wondering what you all think. Is this the better tactic to deal with the 'Gritty Situation' - a constant flow of attempted counters? Or do you think a re-balance (see: nerf) should be the solution? Or do you feel like the situation doesn't need a response - let things be and wait for the new flavor-of-the-month to roll around.
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Comments

  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    I’m all for introducing effective counters. I think it is the best possible way to compromise between those who wish a team would just go away and those who love/rely on them.

    I hate nerfs. Buffs/reworks are just as bad because usually they just end up worse than before.

    New interesting characters who are fun to play is always a good thing. I don’t see any real shots fired on this front for Thorkoye which is a bit disappointing, but I understand the reasoning for it. In any case I couldn’t be much more satisfied with the way the situation was handled. My Gritty is still just as good for PVE and I will still have a viable option for PVP moving forward. 
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,810 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    I'm in a weird place with it. 

    I have champed grocket.  I have a kitty at 420.  I love the speed I have when doing PvE, for sure!

    But for a while there, I didn't have Bishop champed.  And let's be honest, if you're going against Gritty Bishop in PvP, you lose unless you bring your own, and play smart.

    That month, when I had gritty as I describe them, but no Bishop, I couldn't complete the Shield Sim for the 10 pack.  The last 200 points is just a field of Gritty bishops.  Nothing I could do could come close.  I even tried to use DP whales with boosted purple AP... Couldn't get it in time.

    Can you imagine a player coming in, champs a 4*, and he starts seeing even LOW LEVEL Gritty Bishops?  That's enough to make you throw your device.  What do you do?!  Pretty much nothing... Cause you can't win.

    I don't have a single black Okoye cover... That option is out.  My half health Thor is only half done... Not an option.  All I got is basically a mirror match.  For all those counters up there, it doesn't stop that train from rolling, because most of the options require AP, or specific tile matches, or whatever the requirement is.  Whereas Gritty Bishop starts working as soon as the match starts.

    Sure, you can luck into a win, but let's do it consistently.  I'd love Dazzler to work, but she's gotta tank AND survive, and to do that, she needs to tank more colors than her teammates.  Which means you're picking weaker teammates in her colors, or teammates that don't cross colors with her.

    Prowler is nice idea, but you gotta match those tiles.  And that isn't necessarily in a place that's matchable.

    Sabretooth is fun and cheap, and may be a decent solution, but I need to champ him to find out more.

    Obviously Bishop is nice, however, you pretty much sacrifice him so that your teammates win.  So pick two people that can abuse blue AP after he dies.  And even then, make sure it's enough to take care of a champed 5*.

    What I'm getting at after all of this is that it's a giant obstacle for anyone who doesn't have Gritty, and preferably Bishop as well.  ...well, unless that player doesn't care about PvP rewards of any sort.  Then it's no bother at all.

    And to reiterate... I love my Gritty.  I just think it's overly silly that 4* Rocket is the keystone to a lot of teams.  Such a large roster, but really so few options when you look at them all.

    EDIT:. I still say that a great solution is a character that has a passive that blanks the text/ability of an enemy passive every turn.  I wrote about this a time or two, and just make the character a defensive support character.  Blanks a passive each turn, at random... Maybe a stun power can be thrown in for 6+ AP, but no offense.  Now you have a character that can stop gritty potentially.  Since the ability randomly blanks a passive each turn, it could choose Rocket's yellow and do absolutely nothing, but if it stops Bishop or Kitty, that's a positive outcome.  Also, blanking the passive text on Thor's green would be nice.  ...I'll stop there.  My entire write up under the other topics covered this already.

  • formula11
    formula11 Posts: 68 Match Maker
    They just need to change Groot to make 5 tiles at 210 strength instead of 7 tiles at 150 strength. The total is still 1050 strength so it doesn't effect the 4* combos you just have a chance now to stop Kitty.
  • Malcrof
    Malcrof Posts: 5,971 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't have either of them anywhere near covered, and i have a feeling GED is the crux of "my" new meta, i don't even skip gritty anymore. 
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    Yes, OML saved players from using health packs - but you need to remember that the devs weren't going to come out and say that. The stated reason ended up being his usage rate, where they claimed he was used in over 10% of all matches. Gritty sounds like it's way more popular and prevalent than OML EVER was, especially considering how much it speeds up a match vs. OMLs strikes and match damage. If nothing's been done about it up to this point, I'm hard-pressed to believe anything will change now. Given the way this Sabretooth PVP is playing out, it seems folks have realized that throwing Gritty at a loaner is a bad idea, let alone a fully covered/champed one. If a loaner is shutting folks down this much, I'd say the meta is going to take a dramatic shift once more people get Victor covered. 
  • formula11
    formula11 Posts: 68 Match Maker
    Pvp you can only pick 2 sabertooth and who
  • Therealsmkspy
    Therealsmkspy Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    I rarely use Gritty... They're really a last resort for me if I start getting mega hit on my 900 run. 
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    BoyWonder1914 said:
    Yes, OML saved players from using health packs - but you need to remember that the devs weren't going to come out and say that. The stated reason ended up being his usage rate, where they claimed he was used in over 10% of all matches. Gritty sounds like it's way more popular and prevalent than OML EVER was...
    Yes, health packs were the reason. But that doesn't mean the developers were wrong when they stated usage. The big difference here is the amount of covers needed. OML was viable with one cover - the guy was everywhere.
  • Friarbundy
    Friarbundy Posts: 118 Tile Toppler
    Gritty makes PVE tolerable.  I won’t go back to the Pre-Gritty grind.  Counter, don’t nerf!
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    I will always prefer counters. Having a diverse amount of counters is even better. I believe they are there with gritty. 

    Bishop on the other hand...... If you are a 5 star player one big cascade for yourself early on can rack up tons of damage against your team and 20+ blue for the enemy in a hurry.
  • spidyjedi84
    spidyjedi84 Posts: 514 Critical Contributor
    If you have a green cover for Sabretooth, he is terrific. So which cover am I still missing from him and probably won't see until he enters vaults? Yep. D3, is there anyway we can make sure events we have a chance at nabbing at least one of all 3 characters covers before their release event ends? Like making the reward in his PVP event the green as opposed to another level of red? 
  • spidyjedi84
    spidyjedi84 Posts: 514 Critical Contributor
    tiomono said:
    I will always prefer counters. Having a diverse amount of counters is even better. I believe they are there with gritty. 

    Bishop on the other hand...... If you are a 5 star player one big cascade for yourself early on can rack up tons of damage against your team and 20+ blue for the enemy in a hurry.
    Anyone who stuns is a godsend against Bishop, but yeah, that passive is insane with how easily it can be triggered. I have found counters that work for me in 4-star land that rely heavily on stunning Bishop early and stunning him often, including bringing my own Bishop into a match, but we could use a few more counters to him.  
  • Projectus2501
    Projectus2501 Posts: 218 Tile Toppler
    Nerf.    
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    spidyjedi84 said:
    tiomono said:
    I will always prefer counters. Having a diverse amount of counters is even better. I believe they are there with gritty. 

    Bishop on the other hand...... If you are a 5 star player one big cascade for yourself early on can rack up tons of damage against your team and 20+ blue for the enemy in a hurry.
    Anyone who stuns is a godsend against Bishop, but yeah, that passive is insane with how easily it can be triggered. I have found counters that work for me in 4-star land that rely heavily on stunning Bishop early and stunning him often, including bringing my own Bishop into a match, but we could use a few more counters to him.  
    4* players have an easier time with bishop. When you are a 5* player every move you make is a guaranteed 5 blue for the enemy and that adds up quick.  He blasts you in the face pretty much every 2 matches unless you are using gritty then he blasts you in the face every turn. He goes down fairly quick but often takes one of your characters out for 4 turns or more characters if things go poorly.

    Bishop is easily the most annoying character in the game imo. When I use gritty vs bishop, by the time he is down they will have gained at least 20 blue and done at least 16k damage. He is obnoxious.

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