Gritty - nerf, or counter?

24

Comments

  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    formula11 said:
    They just need to change Groot to make 5 tiles at 210 strength instead of 7 tiles at 150 strength. The total is still 1050 strength so it doesn't effect the 4* combos you just have a chance now to stop Kitty.
    Weighting more of grocket power in fewer tiles is a major nerf to him. Losing one or 2 is more devastating if he only starts with 5. He would need buffs in his other powers if they did this. So he wouldnt have 3 garbage to meh powers.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,759 Chairperson of the Boards
    What I think is funny is right now the characters screaming for nerfs are 4* characters.  Grocket and Bishop being the top.  I personally climb in PVP it’s Doom and DD because I got sick of Thor Okoye, but if I am going to float I put out gritty kitty defensively.  I am not sure what the overall answer to the game is but I would like to see more characters get rebalanced.  A lot of characters don’t need massive changes but small subtle ones to become better characters.  
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    I'll fight Gritty teams now with just about anybody, but if Bishop is part of it, I often have to construct a 4* team to do it. I think that tells me that Kitty isn't the problem on any of these teams. I almost never see her on all-5* teams, it's always transitional teams of Kitty/4ocket and then Medusa or Bishop. The "hard counters" that have been coming out have been to rocket, not Kitty, which solves the Rocket/Medusa/G4mora 4* meta that persisted for ages also, and I think that's good. 

    Dazzler is a cool counter to a bishop team, if you have her at a good level. I don't, but the way she works is great. Take damage, stun the attacker (probably bishop), remove enemy strikes. She's not a play-up 4* unless you have a 5* that doesn't share colors (sadly my only 5* champ -GRRR -until i get the iso for Doom is a 1:1 color match to her). 

    I think what makes Sabertooth great is that free board shake. Combined with Main Event, you have a very strong chance of clearing the board right out front. In a featured character PVP you won’t see Bishop in the mix.

    Th4nos/Rogue is probably a strong counter too, I don’t know yet since I haven’t been chasing him. But Rogue can 1-shot a similarly leveled Bishop off that green, And mitigates most of the strike damage. Else you can use Th4nos to crush half the board.
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    kitty is a mediocre 5* at best without special tiles on the board. she's not the problem.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    Maybe we’ll get a 5* Omega Red who has a souped up version of Kraven’s power sap in the same way Kitty is a 5* Nico
  • jamesh
    jamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I'll fight Gritty teams now with just about anybody, but if Bishop is part of it, I often have to construct a 4* team to do it. I think that tells me that Kitty isn't the problem on any of these teams. I almost never see her on all-5* teams, it's always transitional teams of Kitty/4ocket and then Medusa or Bishop. The "hard counters" that have been coming out have been to rocket, not Kitty, which solves the Rocket/Medusa/G4mora 4* meta that persisted for ages also, and I think that's good.
    I don't agree with your analysis.  If you take a R&G/Kitty/Bishop team and substitute someone else in for Kitty, you've got a strong team, but nowhere near as deadly.  It might have high damage due to the strike tiles, but it isn't ramping up every turn.  You've also got the freedom to play with teams that rely more on special tiles, knowing that Kitty won't just overwrite them.
    Most of the counters that have been released so far will be useful against any character that relies on special tiles.  While that certainly affects R&G, it will also affect any character that synergises with Kitty.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    Before Kitty, the team everybody was so tired of was Medusa/Rocket/Gamora for the same reason: turn 1 auto damage with a cheap stun in the middle. If you remove Rocket from that team, or the kitty based team, you have a team nobody is scared to face. The strikes on opponent turn 1 are the problem.
  • jamesh
    jamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
    Right, but there are multiple teams that act as effective counters to Rocket/Gamora/Medusa.  How many of them work against a Rocket/Kitty team?  How effective are Thing's protect tiles if Kitty is going to overwrite them and continue buffing Rocket's strike tiles?  It's the synergy that takes Rocket from strong but manageable to out of control.
    As for Bishop, I kind of agree he could do with a bit of a nerf.  One change that I think would make a big difference would be to change his blue so that the power flips from General Reserves to Energy Conversion immediately on hitting 10 AP, rather than at the beginning of his next turn.  As things are right now, a big cascade could result on him hitting 30 AP before the AP generation turns off.  I do kind of wonder if the current behaviour is a bug or unintended behaviour.
  • SaltyK
    SaltyK Posts: 54 Match Maker
    I'll go with Counters.

    Nerf helps no one.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't have a Kitty yellow so it would be prety annoying if Gritty got nerfed before I had a chance to play (like what happened with Gambit!) so counters for me.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Spudgutter said:
    Haven't I seen this thread several times already?
    Yeah, fair enough. Yet you still felt strongly about it enough to write out a 6 paragraph response, despite that fact, and I thank you for it. Some really good points. I personally don't think there's a right or wrong answer here. I just thought it was interesting how the developers are dealing with this when compared to the past. I felt as though the point about counters being released so frequently deserved its own discussion

    I also think that a point which gets lost in the shuffle, is if the developers are working so hard to produce counters when does the new meta arrive? I think it stifles creativity a bit with these new characters when part (or all) of their design is so focused on dealing with two other characters.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    I took the original post to have an implied "knowing what happens when characters get nerfed around here, do you WANT these characters nerfed?"
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    If we are talking about nerfs then it is worth considering how it affects the playerbase as widely as possible.

    When OML yellow was nerfed it was a massive blow to everybody. When I was a 3* player I could PvP way above my level with a 2 cover yellow OML and a champed IM40 & Thor. I'm pretty sure I wasn't alone.

    In comparison, the nerf to 5* Gambit meant nothing to me and affected my gameplay not in any single way. This was a high end problem.

    So the real question is what impact would it have to the widest portion of the playerbase if we nerfed Kitty or R4G? I am going to go out on a limb and suggest the widest portion are not 5* players, so how many players at the mod tier or widest point are running and using this team? If the answer is a lot then we should tread carefully in my opinion.
  • Gold_Dragon
    Gold_Dragon Posts: 101 Tile Toppler
    I’m gonna speak on a few things.

    #1 The nerf to OML wasn’t because he was “too strong”, per se. He saved health packs even with 2 covers and he was used in a way that was unintended. He was on a lot of teams with 2-3 covers. It was easy to overcome but really stupid and unintended. 

    #2 Gambit was ridiculously oppressive and everywhere. Even the 3* version. Lots of people were running 0/5/5 or 0/0/5 Gambit. Like.... wth? It was crazy. There’s no way that was intended. And battling him was terrible and that was even when we had half-life thor. Was he nerfed “too hard”? I don’t think so. He’s still usable on the right team which is what my next point is about.

    #3 I don’t want gritty nerfed. Because it’s not one character. It’s a really great TEAM/DUO. This game isn’t one-on-one (other than DPQ of course). It’s 3-on-3. Finding a great team is what this game is about and why I believe they won’t be nerfed and would rather create counters. Counters create more teams and more possibilities. Kitty and grocket can’t be thrown on nearly any team with 2 covers or at 0/0/5 and wreck shop by themselves. Kitty + Thorkoye is a waste of a slot. Grocket with Thor+AC is also a waste of time. I don’t want good teams being discouraged to be made.

    #4 there will always be a meta team. Nerfs/buffs/tweaks won’t matter. A new strong team will arise. What are you gonna do? Nerf every team that’s strong?
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Dormammu said:
    Spudgutter said:
    Haven't I seen this thread several times already?
    Yeah, fair enough. Yet you still felt strongly about it enough to write out a 6 paragraph response, despite that fact, and I thank you for it. Some really good points. I personally don't think there's a right or wrong answer here. I just thought it was interesting how the developers are dealing with this when compared to the past. I felt as though the point about counters being released so frequently deserved its own discussion

    I also think that a point which gets lost in the shuffle, is if the developers are working so hard to produce counters when does the new meta arrive? I think it stifles creativity a bit with these new characters when part (or all) of their design is so focused on dealing with two other characters.
    No problem.  I realize not everyone reads every thread, i sure don't.  Realistically, i like to talk, so given a chance, and a couple frosty cold ones, i can ramble on.

    It was more my frustration that we see threads on the meta all the time, going back to Thorverine, oml/Phoenix, Panthos, all the way to groot/gamora/medusa.  

    I can appreciate that people need to vent about them.  I really do.  My frustration stems from people asking for nerfs, and/or suggestions for nerfs.  In other games, both mobile or otherwise, i have seen minor adjustments to characters. We dont see that here.  Also, aside from the save cover situation, i cant recall a change coming from the community that they listened to, maybe the original iteration of 3* iron fist?
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    Colognoisseur said:
    I champed Sabertooth last night and then took him into Sim to take on Bishop Gritty. Those matches are now easy. Get the right cascade and you can win on turn 1; I did twice. Sabertooth is a complete counter to Gritty play the powers correctly paired with Okoye and the strike tiles will be gone then it is just a matter of getting six red to kill what's left.
    I much prefer this solution than nerfing. If you want to beat Gritty you have a couple of solutions now.
    You might have a very high level SB, but the problem for most people is that if you use a 4 to counter Gritty you are going to be eaten alive by 5 teams.

    Of course, countering GRitty with a 5 is much harder as most people need A LOT of time to get a 5 into usable level, so I don't see this as an option (it is also a bit sad that BSSM is so meh).

    That is why Rocket should be nerfed. All games nerf characters, and nerfing a 4 is not a big deal when most of us have 70+ ranked 4s.

    And for those that say Gritty is the only thing that makes PvE bearable I say, maybe the problem is not nerfing Rocket, maybe it is PvE, maybe you should concentrate on asking Devs into making PvE fun (even though I doubt this would happen now after 5 years). Also, what happens then with the people that doesn't have Gritty, you have a MASSIVE advantage over them in PvE (and Kitty is not easy to get).

    Again, NERF ROCKET.
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,239 Chairperson of the Boards
    Polares said:

    You might have a very high level SB, but the problem for most people is that if you use a 4 to counter Gritty you are going to be eaten alive by 5 teams.

    Of course, countering GRitty with a 5 is much harder as most people need A LOT of time to get a 5 into usable level.

    That is why Rocket should be nerfed. All games nerf characters, and nerfing a 4 is not a big deal when most of us have 70+ ranked 4s.

    And for those that say Gritty is the only thing that makes PvE bearable I say, maybe the problem is not nerfin Rocket, is PvE, maybe you should concentrate on asking Devs into making PvE fun (even though this would not happen after 5 years). Also, what happens then with the people that doesn't have Gritty, you have a MASIIVE advantage over them in PvE (and Kitty is not erasy to get).

    Again, NERF ROCKET.
    Sure, but then if they suddenly released a new 3* character who did something similar to 4* Rocket (say this new 3* started with 7 strike tiles but only strength 25 so it's quite weak) we'd be right back here having this discussion because that new character would be paired with Kitty doing the exact same runaway buff problem because Kitty would be adding thousands of strength per turn to those weak strikes.

    If there is going to be a nerf (and I'm against it) the least painful thing to do is change Kittys buff so that on specials created by 4* and below characters it only buffs at 1/3 the rate and buffs at regular rate on specials created by 5* characters. Voila, problem solved not only with Rocket but every other 4* and below character (Carnage for example) and any future character in the 4* an below tier while leaving her untouched in the 5* tier (which is presumably what you are hoping for as a 5* player).

    My personal guess is there won't be a nerf because there is no history of nerfing synergies between characters (otherwise Charlies Angels would have been nerfed years ago). All the Nerfs (Gambit, OML, 3* Fist, 3* Rags, 4* Wolvie, 4* Thoress and the rest I haven't listed) were on characters who were over powered in their own right with no partner needed. Nerfing this combo would set a new precedent that would immediately spark a cry for a  nerf to the Thorkoye synergy which would then spark a cry for the next synergy. Hence I don't see it happening.

    KGB
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    Polares said:
    Colognoisseur said:
    I champed Sabertooth last night and then took him into Sim to take on Bishop Gritty. Those matches are now easy. Get the right cascade and you can win on turn 1; I did twice. Sabertooth is a complete counter to Gritty play the powers correctly paired with Okoye and the strike tiles will be gone then it is just a matter of getting six red to kill what's left.
    I much prefer this solution than nerfing. If you want to beat Gritty you have a couple of solutions now.
    You might have a very high level SB, but the problem for most people 
    I sincerely doubt that what you refer to as "most people" is in fact "most people" in MPQ terms.

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