Punisher...to the Max!!!

Dormammu

I'm not shocked that MaxPun is the least used 4-star, even though I never would have guessed it. He's entirely too slow, expensive, and antiquated. Still, when he's boosted (with a feeder) he's an absolute monster and I would have assumed that kept him from the usage-bottom.

As for Kingpin, he wasn't always this bad. In his prior build, which he enjoyed for a long time, he had his uses. But I doubt his 're-balance' (nerf) has helped his usage numbers since.

Dormammu

I'm not shocked that MaxPun is the least used 4-star, even though I never would have guessed it. He's entirely too slow, expensive, and antiquated. Still, when he's boosted (with a feeder) he's an absolute monster and I would have assumed that kept him from the usage-bottom.

As for Kingpin, he wasn't always this bad. In his prior build, which he enjoyed for a long time, he had his uses. But I doubt his inexplicable 're-balance' (nerf) has helped his usage numbers since.

JHawkInc

Yeah, in his day he was great, but these days you'd use R&G to start with some strikes, or Nova if you wanted to make more. And Iron Fist is more effective at using that color setup. And he pairs better with other people (especially Luke Cage, obviously). And Punisher is at a disadvantage because he stuns his own team (and there aren't nearly enough abilities that benefit from being stunned to pair with Punisher to make that drawback "worth it.")

I wouldn't have guessed him either, but I can see why he's unused. It's a shame, because that flat boost to strikes should be more exciting, instead of being tied to an outdated character kit. Though I guess, in the days of Nico/Kitty boosting tiles, a flat boost would be considered outdated as well.

DAZ0273

Dormammu said:

As for Kingpin, he wasn't always this bad. In his prior build, which he enjoyed for a long time, he had his uses. But I doubt his 're-balance' (nerf) has helped his usage numbers since.

When I was in 3* land, Kingpin was one of the 4* that I was looking forward to champing the most as I came up against him in various events and his 3 powers always caused issues - sure he often had AP feeders in PvE but he was still a force to be reckoned with.

They changed him just around the time I got my 12th cover and I have been able to champ him for well over a year but he sits at lvl 147 and I can't really see him ever getting champed unless I reach the point where iso rains from the sky.

Sad.

DAZ0273

JHawkInc said:

Yeah, in his day he was great, but these days you'd use R&G to start with some strikes, or Nova if you wanted to make more. And Iron Fist is more effective at using that color setup. And he pairs better with other people (especially Luke Cage, obviously). And Punisher is at a disadvantage because he stuns his own team (and there aren't nearly enough abilities that benefit from being stunned to pair with Punisher to make that drawback "worth it.")

I wouldn't have guessed him either, but I can see why he's unused. It's a shame, because that flat boost to strikes should be more exciting, instead of being tied to an outdated character kit. Though I guess, in the days of Nico/Kitty boosting tiles, a flat boost would be considered outdated as well.

Again, all of this is true.

All of this said though, I think 4* Punisher from a development point of view is pretty great - his powers made sense and fit Punisher perfectly as a dangerous lone vigilante (far moreso than say the logic of OML healing being dependent on team mates for example) and in this game where so often the powers can seem a bit random, he still holds up as an example of good design.

ThaRoadWarrior

DAZ0273 said:

When I was in 3* land, Kingpin was one of the 4* that I was looking forward to champing the most as I came up against him in various events and his 3 powers always caused issues - sure he often had AP feeders in PvE but he was still a force to be reckoned with.

They changed him just around the time I got my 12th cover...

Sad.

This was my exact situation with Kingpin - for some reason he and C4ge were the first 4*s that sort of got my attention while boosted before i really had a good awareness of what that meant. I sat on a single cover of Kingpin for maybe a year? during vaulting, just knowing that someday I'd get another cover for him. Then, right after that nerf, I went from 2-3 covers to champ in maybe a month, it was very comical how quickly I got him over as soon as he was terrible. He was the first 4* I champed that was outside of the Latest 12 odds, up to that point I'd only been champing new-ish characters, right as they were about to drop out into standard odds. He's now at the point where even when boosted, I'll take somebody else. There are a few more characters out now that might make him a little better though, like Valkyrie, but it really was a huge letdown for me.

wingX

I have to confess I actually use  4*KIngpin more than 4*Punisher

I have Kingpin max covered for about a year but my Punisher have been around 6 to 7 covers all that time and only recently he is at 5/4/2. (Kingpin is one of my first 5 fully covered 4*, I was looking forward to champ him as he can have many different build depend on situation until he got nerfed).

Back then KIngpin is the 1st character which can generate yellow AP. Even now I only use KIngpin as yellow battery when I want yellow AP but don't want so many yellow tiles on the board (e.g for IM40's yellow).

DAZ0273

wingX said:

I have to confess I actually use  4*KIngpin more than 4*Punisher

I have Kingpin max covered for about a year but my Punisher have been around 6 to 7 covers all that time and only recently he is at 5/4/2. (Kingpin is one of my first 5 fully covered 4*, I was looking forward to champ him as he can have many different build depend on situation until he got nerfed).

Back then KIngpin is the 1st character which can generate yellow AP. Even now I only use KIngpin as yellow battery when I want yellow AP but don't want so many yellow tiles on the board (e.g for IM40's yellow).

Nooooooooo!!!!!!!!! Get thee gone, Satan!

The thing with Kingpin that I always liked the idea of was getting the muscles and snipers to work on my side for once after the gazillion times they have killed me!

ThaRoadWarrior

It's a bit counter intuitive, but using Coulson with Kingpin actually works pretty well. Kingpin's countdowns are long, but seemingly stronger than Coulson, so you get the AP generation, countdown shortening, and board control with Coulson and let Kingpin run offense.

AardvarkPepper

DAZ0273 said:

AardvarkPepper said:

if u were serious u would use 4* pun on every team

I am serious but I never said make him the most used character, just make him used more than Kingpin!

ThaRoadWarrior said:

It's a bit counter intuitive, but using Coulson with Kingpin actually works pretty well. Kingpin's countdowns are long, but seemingly stronger than Coulson, so you get the AP generation, countdown shortening, and board control with Coulson and let Kingpin run offense.

the feels when a 4* punisher thread becomes a 4* kingpin thread

git gud pun

DAZ0273

AardvarkPepper said:

DAZ0273 said:

AardvarkPepper said:

if u were serious u would use 4* pun on every team

I am serious but I never said make him the most used character, just make him used more than Kingpin!

ThaRoadWarrior said:

It's a bit counter intuitive, but using Coulson with Kingpin actually works pretty well. Kingpin's countdowns are long, but seemingly stronger than Coulson, so you get the AP generation, countdown shortening, and board control with Coulson and let Kingpin run offense.

the feels when a 4* punisher thread becomes a 4* kingpin thread

git gud pun

Kingpin has obviously been bribing posters here...

abmoraz

wingX said:

I agree that he shouldn't be the least used 4* but is it because 4* Punisher is not that easy to use, that's why he is the least used 4*? It is because sometime I find it hard to put into a team to fully utilize his full power. You probably need character that can generate green, black and strike tiles.

Some of the teams that I can think of is below:

4* Punisher, Medusa, 3Daken

4* Punisher, Medusa,3*Blade

4* Punisher, Medusa, Nova(5/5/3)

4* Punisher, Medusa, Carnage

4* Punisher, C&D, IM40

4* Punisher, 3Daken, IM40

4* Punisher, 3Daken, Hood

The only problem with your list is that in every one of those teams, 4Pun can be replaced by a more effective 4* character:

- Medusa & Dak3n: either Carol, Nico, or Carnage

- Medusa & Blade: same as above

- Medusa & Nova: Same as above + ProfX

- Medusa & Carnage: Mr. Fantastic

- C&D & IM40: just about any one will work with these 2.  You're just using them as batteries.

and so on

It's not that there aren't teams he's good on, it's that whatever those teams are, there will always be someone better than him to be on it instead.  Hell, In just about every case, you can use HoboFist instead of 4Pun.  They have the same color coverage without the drawbacks of team stunning.

DAZ0273

As it was Blade's DDQ today, Frank decided to put aside his general mistrust of vampires (he isn't fond of the fact they tend not to die in the usual manner) to team up with the Daywalker, both 3* & 4* versions. In order to keep the boys in check, 5* Widow tagged along too. Frank had a marvelous time, he murdered Psylocke and some goons and was left one on one with Captain Marvel whilst his team mates took a break (Ok they were wiping bits of Psylocke out of their costumes and Blade needed the bathroom). She was feeling pretty confident until it turned out that she isn't so good at absorbing bullets and great big knives. 

Frank is looking forward to tomorrow.

Zalasta

You would think that Punisher Max would be a decent partner for Kitty & Grocket with a fairly cheap blue creating 3 strike tiles & increasing the strength of all friendly strike tiles by 25%. That would be a pretty big boost to Kitty's increasingly powerful strike tiles. I may have to play with this in simulator this season.

Dormammu

Zalasta said:

You would think that Punisher Max would be a decent partner for Kitty & Grocket...

Or you could just play with another Guardian for a bigger boost, or you could just play with Nico for a bigger boost, or you could just take Medusa and double-dip every turn...

MaxPun is really showing his age poorly.

wingX

abmoraz said:

It's not that there aren't teams he's good on, it's that whatever those teams are, there will always be someone better than him to be on it instead.  Hell, In just about every case, you can use HoboFist instead of 4Pun.  They have the same color coverage without the drawbacks of team stunning.

There is 1 character that can benefit from the team stun and he is 5*Black Panther. where after stunned, he can deal damage. However, he overlap black with Black Panther. I have try using IM40 and other green battery but they seem to have better green or have the same colour ability as him and the result don't seem to be very good (or maybe my 4*Punisher and 5* Panther is too low level and undercover).

hopper1979

I cannot say I am entirely surprised, I would expect him near the bottom.  He is a powerhouse but he is very difficult to find a good team for and he is a little slow even when accelerated by Vulture or IM40, the matches are almost over when he really starts to roll.  It is too bad he is solid when used properly.

huktonfonix

Punisher was my 2nd 4* champion (after Cyclops) and both are extremely powerful, well-designed characters with great self synergies among their power sets.  The problem is that neither have a great place in a 3-man team.  They don't play well with others.

ThaRoadWarrior

Now I really want to champ him and form some real opinions. wingX said:

abmoraz said:

There is 1 character that can benefit from the team stun 

5* Dr Octopus used to be able to take advantage of being stunned if you had some tentacle tiles out - they would each take a turn for you while he was stunned. now he's just immune to stun, which I guess is kind of the opposite of helpful here.

DAZ0273

The scene: Deadpool Daily Quest

Wolverine in his Patch tux is lounging at the bar when Frank Castle enters.

"Evening Logan, what's up?"

Logan looks up and shuffles uncomfortably

"Oh, hey there Bub, uhm. Nothing. I'm just chilling here, definitely not gonna be looking for any supervillains or anything, so no need for any guns, hey."

" I heard that maggot eating scum Daken was in the area. Figured  I'd help you make him squeal like a piggy!"

"What?!?! No, not seem him around, nothin' to see here, bub!"

Daken comes out the bathroom.

"Hey Dad, did my ice cream arrive yet? Sprinkles! Yummy!"

Wolverine holds his head in his hands

"What's going on here, Logan?!?!? Daken!!! Bullet time!!!!"

"Now you just stop that right now!!!! Geez, I'm just taking the kid out for an ice cream, his Mom lets me see him every other Thursday! Seriously, this is why NOBODY ever wants you on their team, Frank! Always with the murder."

"Is that what they are saying about me now? That I don't fit on any teams?"

"Yes Frank, let's be honest, not only is it the murdering but also the stunning. If I hang out with Thor and he attacks the bad guys I don't spend 2 rounds being sick whilst he makes keyrings outta their kidneys."

"It's not my fault that you guys are wimps. Besides, I'm valuable for my green".

"Yes it is Frank. I mean why does your green attack do more damage AFTER you already killed some people? That's not right Frank. And you genuinely seem to enjoy actually NOT being on a team by making it incredibly hard to have a reason to have you on a team."

"Hey Dad, can I get some Diet Coke?"

"Not now Daken!"

"I can change...what if I don't use my shotgun, just my machine gun?"

"No Frank, we can't afford the drycleaning bills. Last time you team-up Iron Man puked so much it rusted his armour".

"I could use a blunt knife."

Logan shakes his head in despair

"Gee Mister, I like your T-shirt! Wanna play?"

Frank smiles "Good idea! Hey, you have one of those healing factors, right kid? Let me go fetch my shotgun..."