***** Doctor Doom (God Emperor) *****

fight4thedream

BlackBoltRocks said:

@fight4thedream I agree with much of what you said. Doom could - and should - definitely be akin to Thanos in terms of health, and do much more damage, on par with GladiaThor and Jessica. Still, the devs designed him to be primarily defensive with a good nuke, and that's the lemons we'll have to make lemonade of.

I'll just address your comparison of Doom to Okoye, particularly as support characters (so I won't compare their nukes). Sure, Okoye has a better passive, self-healing, and match damage. But Okoye is designed to be the head of the Dora Milaje: she boosts the skill damage of her allies while leading from the front, hence her high match (and TU) damage to allow her to tank. As a result of her tanking, she'll need to heal herself with her Yellow. Note that her Yellow doesn't provide a burst of health to her teammates; instead, it's meant to heal only Okoye while simultaneously providing fuel for Okoye to boost her teammates' damage output. So, in a sense, Okoye converts defense into offense.

In contrast, I see Doom as sitting on his throne in Battleworld, giving his allies the support that they need to continue fighting, which is represented by his burst healing his teammates. And of course, Doom reshapes his world via his will, which is represented by the board shuffle. Perhaps not the best representation of his comic abilities, as you mention, but it isn't the worst representation either. And, like Okoye, Doom can also heal himself, albeit less reliably.

In sum: Okoye, as someone who leads from the front, supports her teammates by boosting their damage output, tanking hits for them, and healing only herself to allow her to continue her role. God Doom, as someone who generally hangs back and surveys the scene, supports his teammates by restoring their health, and taking advantage of opposition manoeuvers (i.e. their making Black and Yellow matches) to sustain himself in order to continue his role.

Doom supports his teammates by replenishing their health, so they can continue doing what they were already doing. Okoye takes what her teammates are already doing and makes it do even more.

This was beautifully stated. I have no objections to your argument. My only complaint is that Doom isn't trying hard enough to keep his teammates alive. lol 

GrimSkald said:

Character power level has nothing to do with power in the game.  Sorry.  Seriously, eight characters in the 5* tier are quite literally physically normal human beings with no special powers, or at least no special powers that affect combat with invulnerable people in a meaningful way.

I mean, Daredevil vs Phoenix?  Hawkeye vs. Black Bolt?  Black Widow vs Thanos? Captain America vs. the Silver Surfer?  Sure, Cap's a master strategist, but what exactly is he going to do?

It's never been about power level.  High power level on a character (i.e. God-Emperor Doom,) makes it more likely they'll introduce the character at the 5* tier, but only a little.

I understand this. But as a comic book fan, it creates a dissonance that at times I feel is unnecessary. The MPQ universe is certainly very peculiar and I have learned to accept that to some degree. It is a universe where the Hulk has never been the strongest, where 3* Spider-man for a significant period of time had magic healing abilities that didn't make any sense lore-wise, where Black Panther and Thanos are best buds. But every now and then, the character design choices crosses the boundaries of my suspension of disbelief. 

But my concern isn't just simply a matter of comic-lore fidelity. It's also a question of how his in-game use, or lack thereof, will affect the metrics and development decisions. For a long time, many players have been clamoring for more villains and Doom has been at the top of a lot players' lists. But his skill set doesn't fit in the current meta, for either PvE or PvP. And when the dev team looks over the numbers and notice that none of the new generation of 5* villains are seeing much play in comparison to other members of their cohort, this might be attributed to their "villain" status. There are still plenty of villains I would like to see in-game and it would be unfortunate if they don't get released because the devs think villains aren't popular.

Finally, I also think this was a missed opportunity to balance out the current meta. I have long been an advocate for strong counter characters; unfortunately, the dev team hasn't been very successful in that regard when it comes to the 5* tier. I have noticed some people suggest that God Emperor Doom would make a good counter to the current Kitty/Grocket trend but that strategy necessitates your Doom being downed. To be frank, it's more of an emergency option than what I would call a desirable counter strategy simply because it's a huge drain on resources. 

Had they made his blue power so that he steals (and possibly buffed) friendly tiles when matched it would have given Doom more appeal. Furthermore, instead of stealing black and yellow AP, had they made it so that he passively converted 2 or 3 TU tiles every turn into Yellow and/or black (maybe you could choose which by cover level), he would have put the brakes on Okoye/Thor teams. 

But who knows, maybe they are saving these kinds of skills for a future character.

It is true that we don't have the full picture here and perhaps he will make a good partner for someone down the line. I remember Black Bolt's initial reception also not being so great but he has had a few glorious moments to shine and has managed to stay at the upper ranking of the 5* tier. I can only hope a similar fate awaits God Emperor Doom. But only time will tell.

Richyyy said:

bluewolf said:

There isn't a lot of room at the top of the meta at this point.  What do you want?  Push fight, watch the board blow up and win?  5 second fights?

Nah, what I'd actually like, personally, is for them to address it from the other side. Give us events or new types of play where characters who have a particular skillset or are defensively strong are actually useful. Give us something (besides the occasional boss event) where you're not constantly striving for speed. Then these decent-but-different-but-not-good-enough characters could become meaningful. Maybe Doom keeps you alive long enough to beat a particular level you couldn't win with offensive strength, maybe there's a special board with no green that makes Thor significantly less useful, hell maybe they just bring back Heroics so I have to pay attention to the 90% of my roster that goes ignored.

I agree with you that the game's already become virtually just a tap-fest in PvE and can't get much quicker without literally being decided by who has the better phone and faster internet connection. So give us more interesting styles of play that would in turn make these new characters potentially much more intriguing.

And 100% this. New game modes that focused on other aspects besides speed would definitely do wonders! 

Thanos said:

Dooms getting a teammate to make him better. Also Namor sneak peek.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix08IUZCwAI

And once again, kudos to the art team! Doom looks amazing!

Dragon_Nexus

I'd have liked to have seen something that referenced this scene.

It was a powerful moment to see Doctor Strange, Mister Sinister and the Thors bow before God Emperor Doom in his throne made out of Yggdrasil.

"Doom demands absolute fealty. On your KNEES. Stun the enemy team for 1 turn and half the power of all enemy special tiles."

Something like that. Force the enemy to respect you and the act of being put in your place weakens your power levels. Not overpowered, gives you an advantage and diminishes special tile users. Could even keep in a little healing as the sight of his subjects bowing before him strokes his ego. Because you know it would.

Anon

I've been hoping for God Emperor Doom for a long time and I'm ecstatic that he's finally here. His artwork looks great! His powers however...are not quite what I expected.

Obviously yes, it's tough for a Dev to maintain character flavor while also trying to maintain balance and not make a character overpowered (which would be extremely easy to do with God Emperor Doom). 

That said, I think they missed the mark with Doom. The only power really worth a damn is his Black. Blue has some use, as does Yellow, but overall, he doesn't really feel like an almighty Doom. He'll probably be better than we originally think like the previous Black Bolt example, but I must admit I'm a bit disappointed.

Oh well, God Emperor Doom is in the game and that's all that matters!

Quebbster

Daredevil217 said:

I agree, but I think the problem is if they are not game-breaking, but also not a smoldering dumpster fire, most categorize that as "meh".

I'd say the top 5* in the game are (in release order): Thanos, Thor, Okoye, Jessica, and Kitty.  So 4 of the top 5 have all been released the past year and some change. I think we've been spoiled with some pretty awesome releases relatively recently and as such everything that doesn't hit that high mark looks cruddy in comparison.

Starting with Thor, we've had the 4 awesome ones, we've had two "dumpster fires" in Wasp and Kingpin and the rest have been in that "meh" category: Archangel, Ghost Rider, IW Cap, Loki, Cable, and now Doom.

So 4/12 Excellent, 2/12 awful, 6/12 meh.  That's half of the last dozen characters that fit into that meh category. I think that's where people's complaints come from. I think Doom has the potential to be the best among the meh bunch just due to his niche as an annoying defensive character, but he's still another "mid-tier" character. 

I Think part of the problem is that people have been waiting for a good pair of fivestars Before opening their hoard. If you look at the list of the five top fivestars:

* Thanos was in Latest Legends with Dr Strange and Black Panther

* Thor was in Latest Legends with Gambit and Daredevil

* Okoye was in Latest Legends with Jessica Jones (and LumberCap)

Kitty though? When she entered it was Wasp and Loki, now she is with Cable and Kingpin. It's not a terribly exciting set no matter when you would pull - I suppose Loki/Kitty/Cable was the least bad set as you could at least avoid a "dumpster fire" fivestar that way.

I Think a lot of high end players are waiting for the next meta shift, and each fivestar release that does not contribute to the meta shift is a Disappointment.

Tony_Foot

What comic run do I need to read for this doom stuff people are posting 

Nick441234

Daredevil217 said:

bluewolf said:

Richyyy said:

The problem is that the game design makes characters like this pretty worthless to most people trying to play competitively. Everything's based on speed, whether you're trying to clear nodes in PvE or trying to climb before you get hit back in PvP. So defensive characters become of significantly less use than offensive ones who can power through opponents. If there were more puzzle-based, thinking-necessary events/nodes/opponents/whatever then characters who are difficult to beat, or who keep you alive, would be much more valuable. As it is, I read Doom's powers, go "Mehhhhhh", and go back to waiting for a 5* who's going to change anything.

Gambit:  Aug '17.  
Thor:  Oct '17.
Okoye:  May '18
Next one: Kitty Pryde: Sept. '18

FIFY

People keep asking, "When are we going to get a 5* that matters?  All we get are duds.  I'm going to be hoarding forever!".  Those people are going to be really sad if they miss out on Kitty.  Especially if we get a person who specializes in rapid/passive special tile creation in the 5* tier.  

She's super fast on offense, a great deterrent on defense, plays well with lots of others and gives a ton of newer players who missed out on Thorkoye a chance to sit at the big kids table (as evidenced by all the grittys popping up in PVP and sim).  But yeah, when are we going to get a 5* who matters?

I'd love to be able to finish my Kitty, but the game wont allow it. 1 5* in 54 pulls and it was Cable. You either get lucky with Latests or you wait years with all the other 5*s. 

BlackBoltRocks

Tony_Foot said:

What comic run do I need to read for this doom stuff people are posting 

Secret Wars (2015).

BlackBoltRocks

Quebbster said:

I Think part of the problem is that people have been waiting for a good pair of fivestars Before opening their hoard. If you look at the list of the five top fivestars:

* Thanos was in Latest Legends with Dr Strange and Black Panther

* Thor was in Latest Legends with Gambit and Daredevil

* Okoye was in Latest Legends with Jessica Jones (and LumberCap)

Kitty though? When she entered it was Wasp and Loki, now she is with Cable and Kingpin. It's not a terribly exciting set no matter when you would pull - I suppose Loki/Kitty/Cable was the least bad set as you could at least avoid a "dumpster fire" fivestar that way.

I Think a lot of high end players are waiting for the next meta shift, and each fivestar release that does not contribute to the meta shift is a Disappointment.

That's true. And when Kitty was released, the other two 5* in her vault were OML and Phoenix; two of the first three 5*, whom the metagame has long passed by. I feel a lot of the discontent comes subconsciously from the fact that Kitty cannot claim to have at least had another top-tier 5* with her. Even Peter Parker Spidey didn't have it this bad: he was stuck with Starlord and Doctopus before him, but he was followed by Daredevil and Gambit. And he was in Okoye's release store (along with Panther). Kitty? Wasp is garbage; Loki is decent but not top-tier; Cable is very meh; Fatpin is garbage.

I think players also have a right to expect that each and every 5* will be at or around the level of Thor, Okoye, Jessica, Thanos, Daredevil. After all, they're supposed to be the endgame***. You'd at least expect to get excited whenever you see that purple rectangle on your screen. Instead, your reaction is "please don't be Wasp" "please don't be Fatpin". Something's wrong somewhere.

The other thing is we players can't control who's in the vaults. Look at Doom's release vault: Doom is okay (my personal opinion), Strange is always great for PvE clears, but Banner...urgh. it's things like this that frustrate players. And it goes back to character design: if Banner was at the in-game level of Thor, no one would be complaining.

Finally: perhaps the devs are also looking to avoid Gambit 2.0. That's understandable, but the devs have shown they know how to release a great 5* without them being undeniably OP. Just look at Okoye, Jessica, Kitty, Bolt, Thanos, Daredevil. I wouldn't consider Thor OP either. When you see nonsense like Wasp and Fatpin, it makes you wonder.


***I know it's going to work. Because I don't know what I'm gonna do if it doesn't.

Quebbster

I Think the devs expected Cable to work as a good partner for Kitty TBH - he is an X-man and produces strike tiles she can buff at least. But of course, the devs also expected Archangel and LumberCap to work as counters to Gambit...

bluewolf

BlackBoltRocks said:

Tony_Foot said:

What comic run do I need to read for this doom stuff people are posting 

Secret Wars (2015).

If you want to really dig in, start with FF or go to Avengers, both by Jonathan Hickman, where he set the table for Secret Wars.

Secret Wars also spawned a bunch of connected minis which took place on a world Doom created.

All top notch stuff (the minis are varying quality).  Hickman is a really smart writer which could be more or less appealing depending on what you like your comics to be like. Lots of cosmic ideas introduced. 

SymmeTrey

I'm not saying he's going to be great, but... with the AP steal and the relatively low cost of black, his black is going to be fired a lot. It's going to be one of those powers where the AI fires it and you're like "what? They already had AP for that one? When did that happen?" And at 25k damage, that's no joke. The sneaky AP steal can create similar situations for teammates with high-end black or yellow powers as well.

He's light years ahead of Kingpin & Wasp (both trash tier) and Loki (lower mid-tier). He looks to be a "pretty good" character... probably will rank somewhere in the Top 8-12 range of the tier.

If the anticipated MCU Captain Marvel and End-Game related releases are good, there could come a day soon when all 3 Latest Legends are at least decent without a "please don't be that one" Legend in there.

whitecat31

SymmeTrey said:

He's light years ahead of Kingpin & Wasp (both trash tier) and Loki (lower mid-tier). 

I completely disagree with this assessment of Kingpin.  Kingpin has a conditional blue that can steal a little ap  from the enemies strongest AP pool, and deals 14K for 7 blue AP.    It can even steal more blue, to help do it again.  
WASP blue, steals a tiny bit of random ap and does no damage. 
His Black is expensive, but that tile can reduce a LOT of match damage and also reduces the opponents strongest AP. That Black can set up that blue occasionally. 
WASP's black is also expensive, it does very little damage, and the heal is not even a true heal. 
Kingpins Green cost only 9 green AP and can create some tiles to set up blue and is cheap. That repeater tile can do some hefty 8K damage as well. 
WASP's yellow in comparison is costly and basically useless.

So if lucky Kingpin with just 9 green and 10 or more blue, can play green, and then play blue twice dealing 28K damage. 

Now granted Kingpin's ability are conditional as well as doing some AP control, but to put him on the same level of WASP is just unfair to Kingpin.
Kingpin may be a small trashcan, but WASP is a raging dumpster fire filled with manure that stinks up the neighborhood for miles.  She gets a whole trash tier to herself.

ThaRoadWarrior

Looks like the Doom store and Vault are live. just 1 sue in there, we giving odds she'll be his feeder?

@Brigby The Vault is live, but the preview in the first post of this thread says it goes live tomorrow. Bug, Feature, or Typo?

ammenell

I won't crack my hoard for this. 

bbigler

Quebbster said:

I Think the devs expected Cable to work as a good partner for Kitty TBH - he is an X-man and produces strike tiles she can buff at least. But of course, the devs also expected Archangel and LumberCap to work as counters to Gambit...

I don't think the dev's realize most matches are over in 10 turns or less. We have too many characters that are "slow" because of their high AP costs or long count-downs. The best characters in the game are the ones with cheap powers or passives. This has been true since the beginning. AP generating characters can make slow characters viable, but it creates a dependency and makes them less useful. 

If Demiurge wanted to make Cable a good partner for Kitty, his strike tile creation shouldn't have cost 9 AP. 6 AP would have been viable. If Cable's Blue, which is supposed to feed his green, cost 6 AP instead, then that's a viable strategy and not overpowered either. Cable's design isn't bad, his costs are just a little too high to make him good. 

Doom's design is good, but his yellow cost is too high to be used more than once per battle. Kingpin's design isn't bad either if you just reduced his black and green costs. Loki would be better if his green repeater cost less too. It seems like these characters have high costs because Demiurge thinks matches last a long time.

Polares

I have been waiting for God Emperor Doom since I read SW2, and now that I finally have it, I have a bittersweet taste. He is not bad, but he is not exciting at all.

I think Devs should start buffing chars pre release. Just reduce yellow cost to 8 and raise the healing and he would be a much balanced and decent character, very good in defense. 10 is too much, like way too much. The ability could even cost 7 and would still be fine but 10, 4 matches territory? (steals might reduce this, but it is still too much).

Brigby

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Looks like the Doom store and Vault are live. just 1 sue in there, we giving odds she'll be his feeder?

Brigby The Vault is live, but the preview in the first post of this thread says it goes live tomorrow. Bug, Feature, or Typo?

Hmm good catch! Looks like it does, in fact, start today, as opposed to tomorrow. Apologies for the confusion. I'll correct that right now.

ThaRoadWarrior

bbigler said:

 It seems like these characters have high costs because Demiurge thinks matches last a long time.

It's possible if you look at the entirity of the data regarding match lengths that they DO take a long time - just not at the all-5* tier. If you aren't playing with a champed 5*, or a very boosted 4*, and you're trying to get through an SCL that's above your weight, matches can take quite awhile.

Dragon_Nexus

Brigby said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Looks like the Doom store and Vault are live. just 1 sue in there, we giving odds she'll be his feeder?

Brigby The Vault is live, but the preview in the first post of this thread says it goes live tomorrow. Bug, Feature, or Typo?

Hmm good catch! Looks like it does, in fact, start today, as opposed to tomorrow. Apologies for the confusion. I'll correct that right now.

I honestly think it was an update error, rather than your error, Brigby.

The vaults and legendary stores usually open the day the boss starts. This feels early.

Not complaining either way, just hope you don't blame yourself for not announcing the update being earlier than usual

Vins2

bluewolf said:

BlackBoltRocks said:

Tony_Foot said:

What comic run do I need to read for this doom stuff people are posting 

Secret Wars (2015).

If you want to really dig in, start with FF or go to Avengers, both by Jonathan Hickman, where he set the table for Secret Wars.

Secret Wars also spawned a bunch of connected minis which took place on a world Doom created.

All top notch stuff (the minis are varying quality).  Hickman is a really smart writer which could be more or less appealing depending on what you like your comics to be like. Lots of cosmic ideas introduced. 

It was funny that we were getting a whole bunch of numbers 1, when Secret Wars, the event that was supposed to be the reason for all these resets, was not even finished yet. 

Secret Wars did give us back Old Man Logan and started up Renew your vows.