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Doctor Octopus (Classic) - Character Update (12/12/18)

24

Comments

  • STOPTHISSTOPTHIS Posts: 775 Critical Contributor
    What exactly is the point of this? I see a character who was complete trash tier before, extremely confusing and complicated to use, with some unique and fun (if bad) abilities.

    The new version is a little better, I guess? But still trash tier and I’m not sure he leapfrogs a single other 5* in the rankings. He’s also still incredibly complicated, but loses some of his unique abilities and interactions.

    Not one of his ability changes is an unconditional buff. Every improvement comes with a trade off. Why? Why not some straight up buffs with no downside instead of getting cute with this? This is not a character in danger of becoming the next Gambit.
    Not every rework needs to make a character top tier. Overall, he looks far more usable now. Sure, he doesn't break the meta, but he doesn't have to. I can't recall every rework they've done, but I'd wager that most were just okay. A bottom tier character becoming top tier is really rare. IM40, Riri, Wasp, and maybe Starlord are the only ones, off the top of my head, that got a rework that made them must haves. This feels more like a Reed or Psylocke level rework. Doc Ock might not be a must have, but now he's a bit more useful for those that do have him.
  • JSP869JSP869 Posts: 477 Mover and Shaker
    The new Dr Ock looks great, but I'm confused about how his Reactor works now.

    Questions:

    1) You create a 3-turn repeater, it countdown to 0, and it becomes Phase 2. Then it restarts again, repeater countdown to 0 and it become Phase 3, and so on and so forth? Or do you need to create a new repeater for every phase?

    2) if the repeater is fortified, is it considered "matched away" in order to trigger the passive damage dealt to enemy. I doubt not because it could be pretty broken.

    1) The way it's written, to me it looks like you cannot let it count down or you have to start all over again. Note that both Phase 2 and Phase 3 both say that if the Reactor is no longer on the board the power becomes "Cunning Scheme", being the power's original (phase 1) name. If it works the way it's written, you're going to want to save up 18 Green AP so you can fire Cunning Scheme, and if the Reactor tile lands in good spot where it can be easily matched away you then fire Phase 2, then fire Phase 3, then immediately match away the Reactor tile, all in one turn. In other words, you need 18 AP and you need the Reactor to land in a good spot (unless you can place it yourself) for maximum effect.

    2) It may. I've seen Medusa's Entanglement tile get matched while fortified, and it still spawns two Attack tiles. Of course Entanglement doesn't say 'matched away', it just says 'matched'. This has the potential to be very OP if you're able to fortify the Reactor tile, and if you have a tile mover who can set up matches for it. You could match it while Fortified, then potentially match it again. But again you need 18 AP for maximum pwnage.
  • StraycatStraycat Posts: 948 Critical Contributor
    Well now he's a much better designed character. His tentacles are much easier and much more useful to make.  A little disappointed that the cunning scheme is only a healing ability. I thought it would have been better if it gained a function every phase. Phase 1 heal, phase 2 heal + ap steal, phase 3 heal +ap steal +create specials. Instead its either heal or damage. At least its only 6 ap.
    But his black was decent before, and just got a little worse. Why is it a countdown now? The stun made the countdown worth it, now its just an expensive liability.
    Still, with all the other green users I might lean 5/5/3. Although the consistent heal might be nice for Thor surviveability.
  • himatakohimatako Posts: 219 Tile Toppler
    JSP869 said:
    The new Dr Ock looks great, but I'm confused about how his Reactor works now.

    Questions:

    1) You create a 3-turn repeater, it countdown to 0, and it becomes Phase 2. Then it restarts again, repeater countdown to 0 and it become Phase 3, and so on and so forth? Or do you need to create a new repeater for every phase?

    2) if the repeater is fortified, is it considered "matched away" in order to trigger the passive damage dealt to enemy. I doubt not because it could be pretty broken.

    1) The way it's written, to me it looks like you cannot let it count down or you have to start all over again. 
    Being a repeater means the tile won't disappear when the countdown reaches zero, so you probably won't go back to phase 1. You get team burst heal every time the repeater countdown reaches zero. The repeater will be upgraded when you use his green again only.

    At phase 3, you heal 4500 health every turn. That's going to be super annoying imo.
  • GrimSkaldGrimSkald Posts: 1,902 Chairperson of the Boards
    STOPTHIS said:
    What exactly is the point of this? I see a character who was complete trash tier before, extremely confusing and complicated to use, with some unique and fun (if bad) abilities.

    The new version is a little better, I guess? But still trash tier and I’m not sure he leapfrogs a single other 5* in the rankings. He’s also still incredibly complicated, but loses some of his unique abilities and interactions.

    Not one of his ability changes is an unconditional buff. Every improvement comes with a trade off. Why? Why not some straight up buffs with no downside instead of getting cute with this? This is not a character in danger of becoming the next Gambit.
    Not every rework needs to make a character top tier. Overall, he looks far more usable now. Sure, he doesn't break the meta, but he doesn't have to. I can't recall every rework they've done, but I'd wager that most were just okay. A bottom tier character becoming top tier is really rare. IM40, Riri, Wasp, and maybe Starlord are the only ones, off the top of my head, that got a rework that made them must haves. This feels more like a Reed or Psylocke level rework. Doc Ock might not be a must have, but now he's a bit more useful for those that do have him.

    Starlord went from almost useless to one of the best utility characters of his time, so yeah, I think that qualifies.  Now that you mention it, a "Reed" level rework would be awesome for one of the bottom tier characters.  Reed very solidly fills a niche that only one other character does (Coulson) - he gives you the ability to almost always be able to match a particular tile away so long as you gather the right AP.  He's great for the "puzzle" style bosses.

    Heck, my Kaecillius team is Reed, Coulson, and 5* Hawkeye.  Hawkeye is just there to tank and generate AP for the other two...

    Anyway, I would love to see a 5* rework for a bottom tier 5* that includes something that fills a neat niche.

  • RickOShayRickOShay Posts: 98 Match Maker
    What exactly is the point of this? I see a character who was complete trash tier before, extremely confusing and complicated to use, with some unique and fun (if bad) abilities.

    The new version is a little better, I guess? But still trash tier and I’m not sure he leapfrogs a single other 5* in the rankings. He’s also still incredibly complicated, but loses some of his unique abilities and interactions.

    Not one of his ability changes is an unconditional buff. Every improvement comes with a trade off. Why? Why not some straight up buffs with no downside instead of getting cute with this? This is not a character in danger of becoming the next Gambit.

    His green has been completely buffed, because now you can actually play it.
  • HoundofShadowHoundofShadow Posts: 1,583 Chairperson of the Boards
    The update is live now. Rejoice! The new Dr. Octopus.
  • bluewolfbluewolf Posts: 2,157 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sellback is double the iso and hp vs an equivalent 5. No tokens. (All as expected.)
  • zodiac339zodiac339 Posts: 1,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    Guess we can stop joking about our commander’s Champ Doctopu5. With the alteration to black, I’m thinking 3/5/5 and find someone else for black AP. For 8 Blue and base 11K, that blue is quite nice (and up to 26K for making 4 match 4? Won’t happen often since they can be matched like normal, but a sweet possibility). Best partner is Goblin to keep that annoying team heal fortified, and Goblin Glider is WAY better than Superior Science, unless you really need that 1-turn stun that doesn’t even improve with rank.
  • superdrongosuperdrongo Posts: 2 Just Dropped In
    what causes there to be two different damage figures if the reactor is matched away? Is one if matched by the opponent, the other if matched by the player? 
  • DesertTortoiseDesertTortoise Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    edited December 2018
    His stun resistance isn't working against Court Death. I had a tentacle on the board, killed an enemy with a power and Ock got stunned along with everyone else. 

    Additionally, if you fortify the repeater tile on his green and match it no damage is done. It means "matched away" as stated, was hoping it just meant matched. 
  • Xavier_McXavier_Mc Posts: 19 Just Dropped In
    My Doc Ock is 285 (1-3-1) so I figure I could test him out on The Big Enchiliada to try to get to the final phase.

    I never fired his black power so I can't comment on that. Nor did I fire his blue, but it was really easy to start popping out tentacles that I had 4 at some point during the wave.

    As for green I managed to finish the whole Scheme. It only takes the 18ap
    6ap to create,
    6ap to move to phase 2
    6ap to move to phase 3
    And the final phase is just activated when the tile is matched.

  • himatakohimatako Posts: 219 Tile Toppler
    edited December 2018
    what causes there to be two different damage figures if the reactor is matched away? Is one if matched by the opponent, the other if matched by the player? 
    It's confusing but the number on his active component is the number that will become his passive damage after you upgrade the repeater. Think of the description as a preview of his next upgrade. The actual current damage is in the passive component.


    Too bad I don't have his green cover yet, since it looks like the most entertaining power among his power set. Just tried blue and I realised that this feels like a missed opportunity to make his blue a multi-hit attack like Valkyrie's red. It would have comboed very well with the strike tiles he makes from his black. Not to mention it fits well with him having multiple arms/tentacles.
  • TheRealJRadTheRealJRad Posts: 309 Mover and Shaker
    Court Death is stunning Ock with a tentacle tile out. Is this intended?
  • bbiglerbbigler Posts: 1,389 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hmmm...... here's my review if you want to hear it. Overall, I rank him above average now. 

    11 Black - a 1-turn stun with a 3-turn CD tile doesn't sound great.  If the CD tile is matched away, then it's a waste of AP. If it cost 7 Black with 4 tentacle tiles out, then it's reasonable, but that's not likely to happen. This is his bad power.

    8 Blue - for a nuke, this is cheap. Your likely to have 1-2 tentacle tiles during most of the match. You create some and you lose some. Of course, you want to wait to fire this when you have 2+ tentacles out. So, I would look at this as 8 Blue for 18K damage, which is awesome. Even 8 AP for 15K is good. The added perk of stun immunity is definitely useful. This is his good power.

    6 Green - a Repeater tile that burst  heals your team is not amazing, especially a 3-turn repeater. Even upgraded to 2 or 1 turns is just OK. The real usefulness here is matching it away for an AOE. So, you don't want to fortify it. You could wait to fire this until you have 12 Green, upgrading it right away. Obviously, the intent with this power is to stall with burst healing while building up a big team nuke. But if the repeater is stuck in a corner, then your ultimate plans are stalled. If the repeater is destroyed in some other way, then this is a waste of AP.  By the numbers, this is good damage output, but it's tricky to use. This is his mediocre power. 

    Overall - his powers are "balanced" like many other characters, having a good, bad and "ugly" power. His Nuclear Reactor Repeater is in-character being clever, complicated, potentially devastating but able to be stopped. With the Vulture battery, he could shine, like many. Perhaps he could be useful depending on the required pvp character who could support his powers, like Kamala or Switch. Ironically, he could do well in the Sinister 6 Boss Event. 
  • sinnerjflsinnerjfl Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Oh look, it truly is a 1 turn stun for 11 AP...      why was this change needed? This is a pretty big nerf to his stun, WHY?
  • sinnerjflsinnerjfl Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    zodiac339 said:
    Guess we can stop joking about our commander’s Champ Doctopu5. With the alteration to black, I’m thinking 3/5/5 and find someone else for black AP. For 8 Blue and base 11K, that blue is quite nice (and up to 26K for making 4 match 4? Won’t happen often since they can be matched like normal, but a sweet possibility). Best partner is Goblin to keep that annoying team heal fortified, and Goblin Glider is WAY better than Superior Science, unless you really need that 1-turn stun that doesn’t even improve with rank.
    Heh guess what, if you run Ock with GG, he'll fortifty the green repeater and you can get never the damage off... OOPS.
  • BrigbyBrigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 6,596 Site Admin
    himatako said:
    JSP869 said:
    The new Dr Ock looks great, but I'm confused about how his Reactor works now.

    Questions:

    1) You create a 3-turn repeater, it countdown to 0, and it becomes Phase 2. Then it restarts again, repeater countdown to 0 and it become Phase 3, and so on and so forth? Or do you need to create a new repeater for every phase?

    2) if the repeater is fortified, is it considered "matched away" in order to trigger the passive damage dealt to enemy. I doubt not because it could be pretty broken.

    1) The way it's written, to me it looks like you cannot let it count down or you have to start all over again. 
    Being a repeater means the tile won't disappear when the countdown reaches zero, so you probably won't go back to phase 1. You get team burst heal every time the repeater countdown reaches zero. The repeater will be upgraded when you use his green again only.

    At phase 3, you heal 4500 health every turn. That's going to be super annoying imo.
    Yes. The way @himatako explained it is correct. There can only be one Repeater tile on the board for Cunning Scheme, and that's what you upgrade each time you activate the ability. The higher the phase gets, the more healing or damage it dishes out.
    himatako said:
    what causes there to be two different damage figures if the reactor is matched away? Is one if matched by the opponent, the other if matched by the player? 
    It's confusing but the number on his active component is the number that will become his passive damage after you upgrade the repeater. Think of the description as a preview of his next upgrade. The actual current damage is in the passive component.

    -snip-
    This is also correct!
    sinnerjfl said:
    Heh guess what, if you run Ock with GG, he'll fortifty the green repeater and you can get never the damage off... OOPS.
    True, but then you'll keep on receiving team burst heal, so I see the strength of the ability more based on what you're trying to accomplish.

    Do you want to keep your team alive for as long as possible, relying on your Blue or other characters' damage abilities, or do you want to leave the Repeater tiles open to being matched away, so you can take advantage of the AOE damage component? The choice is yours!
  • zodiac339zodiac339 Posts: 1,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    sinnerjfl said:
    zodiac339 said:
    Guess we can stop joking about our commander’s Champ Doctopu5. With the alteration to black, I’m thinking 3/5/5 and find someone else for black AP. For 8 Blue and base 11K, that blue is quite nice (and up to 26K for making 4 match 4? Won’t happen often since they can be matched like normal, but a sweet possibility). Best partner is Goblin to keep that annoying team heal fortified, and Goblin Glider is WAY better than Superior Science, unless you really need that 1-turn stun that doesn’t even improve with rank.
    Heh guess what, if you run Ock with GG, he'll fortifty the green repeater and you can get never the damage off... OOPS.
    Unless you throw in a board manipulator, you can’t guarantee a match. I want him to be incredibly annoying on defense with a growing team heal. Throw in someone for protect tiles. Won’t kill Thorkoye, but will get some defense wins after someone rages for 10 minutes and quits on a full health defense team and no effective way to get rid of the repeater.
  • sinnerjflsinnerjfl Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    I can't get behind these changes, it's hard to believe it but you made Ock worse in my eyes, lets look at every ability.

    Black: Now it costs 11 AP for a 1 turn stun...  Which is way way worse than the old unique stun that could keep going to another enemy if initial target died. Now we get some more damage as compensation and slightly stronger strike tiles...  Ok fine, I'd rather take the old stun. Oh yes, it now costs less per tentacle tile on the board which you can only get on the board via a match-4. This is worse than the old ability.

    Blue: Base damage is higher (good) but now you only get tentacles via match-4 (bad). As the tentacles are not fortified, if you're very lucky, you'll have 2 tentacles out for maybe a few turns because as you make more match-4's, you end up taking out your own tentacles. Not to mention the enemy team which will also take them out...   This is... better? No idea but its sure difficult to keep those tentacles out. Stun immunity...  whatever.

    Green: Yay burst healing, everyone loves this so much right? I don't. The reduced cost to 6 AP for all phases is good. The bad, you are now required to MATCH this tile (ugh, no more utility with Car4l), fortification won't trigger damage (bad). This is... I don't even know, better? Maybe?

    Just wow, I cant believe it.

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