3* Max Champ Rewards Rethink

shardwick

Huntah86 said:

It doesn't take 5 years to max champ a 3*. I've been playing for just under 3 years and right now I've max champed every 3* and already have a dupe for every 3* at level 200 or higher. I've actually already max champed a few dupes even.  It's easier now more so than ever to make huge progress on 3* pretty easily.  i'm a T50 player at SCL9 so every time a 3* is featured in PVE that will net me at least (7) of that 3* (3 from rewards, 1 from alliance rewards and at least 3 from progression). Then every time they're featured for PVP that's another (5) covers at least for me (I'm typically at least T25 so 3 from rewards, 1 from alliance and 1 from progression). That piles up FAST!

What I personally did was selling 3* covers until I had almost all my 4* champed and then I slowly started selling max champs to rechamp new covers (I only kept max 3* that were used for lightning rounds). Right now I almost always sit at around 1 mill ISO and only ever use it to rechamp 2*, champ new 4* or champ 5* once covered.

Yeah I am just shy of playing for two years and nearly half of my 3s are max champed and my 3* Cap dupe has almost thirty saved covers. I swim in 3* covers.

Phumade

Dragon_Nexus said:

I dread hitting my first maxed 4* and then getting another cover for that character.

It’s actually much better thought out at 4* land.  The last champ level gives 1000hp.

presumably you can immediately spend that 1k and buy a extra roster slot.


realtisctaly, no player gets to max champed 4* phase withou already having a mega roster to start, so you right smack in the 1k roster slot range.

now with roster slots costing 2k after 300 chars,  maybe the last reward level needs to be bumped up accordingly

maguirenumber6

I sell my maxchamped 3*s as soon as I get a spare cover for them, with the exception being Doctor Strange. He's far far too useful to get rid of. I've started a dupe for him and may sell the maxchamped original when I get to 200 or so. I use the iso to champ 4s (and more recently, my first two 5* champs) and the HP for roster slots, etc.

TheBaku

For what it's worth (as the guy who started the thread) I've started to look at it as a 120k iso 'Latest Legend'...

I don't like it,  but it make me hate the 'start-over-at-level-1-as-progress' (aka,  go way back to go forwards) system we're currently saddled with a titch less...

AardvarkPepper

So the OP got to the point that they have maxed 3*s, then they want to earn dupli-rewards on maxed 3* without using another roster slot?  Because they're short on iso that they want to use because they're pushing the 4*-5* transition?

I mean come on now.  I hear what the OP is saying, but the OP saw this coming, right?

I'm not trying to dismiss the OP's perceived conundrum.  But the fact is, there *is* an endpoint.  I think it takes something on the order of 6 million iso to dupli-farm a full set of 3*s (mind there's significant HP costs too).  Dupli-farming 3*s means you can keep your original maxed 3* AND get rewards off the second 3* you're raising.

"b-but iso"

Look, the way I see it, when you're a new player you have iso coming out your ears and you get in this mentality that you might as well spend iso.  But as a veteran player, you should know you're going to run into an iso shortage when you're championing your 4*s, and then again when you start pushing your 5* levels.  I mean, you should REALLY know it as a veteran.  So when that happens, instead of pushing iso into everyone, you should probably NOT spend iso to level all your 4*s - you just level a 4* if you use it all the time, or for Deadpool Daily Crash of the Titans or for SHIELD training but generally you really skimp on spending iso unless you really really really need to.

And if you didn't do that and you haven't been doing it, tough.  Just like how you want on the order of 500 legendary tokens to push into fully covered 5* transition, playing optimally, REALLY optimally, requires advance planning, and even if you already know about stockpiling legendary tokens to make the 5* transition with three fully covered 5*s, well there's other stuff like best iso spending practices.  It is what it is.  If you didn't know all the tricks, well now you know one more.

And if you don't have the infrastructure at this point to earn optimal rewards?  Maybe you spent your HP on character packages or vault pulls and spent your ISO on just leveling whoever?  Well then you can sell off your excess 3*s for iso instead of leveling, championing, then earning rewards, because you don't have the infrastructure to earn optimal rewards.   Or you can bite the bullet sell off your maxed 3* and re-roster and not be able to use that maxed 3*.  Or you can use a roster slot to roster a duplicate 3* then sell off your maxed once your duplicate is championed.  Whatever. That's just what you have to do, so buck up and do it.  Just like how if some new player blew all their legendary tokens and ended up having to sell off a lot of 4*s and 5*s they couldn't afford to roster, you have to do the sub-optimal thing because you don't have the infrastructure to do everything you want; you don't have the HP, you don't have the iso, whatever it is, if you don't have it, you have to make do without or buy it with real money.  Up to you.

TheBaku

AardvarkPepper said:

So the OP got to the point that they have maxed 3*s, then they want to earn dupli-rewards on maxed 3* without using another roster slot?  Because they're short on iso that they want to use because they're pushing the 4*-5* transition?

I mean come on now.  I hear what the OP is saying, but the OP saw this coming, right?

I'm not trying to dismiss the OP's perceived conundrum.  But the fact is, there *is* an endpoint.  I think it takes something on the order of 6 million iso to dupli-farm a full set of 3*s (mind there's significant HP costs too).  Dupli-farming 3*s means you can keep your original maxed 3* AND get rewards off the second 3* you're raising.

"b-but iso"

Look, the way I see it, when you're a new player you have iso coming out your ears and you get in this mentality that you might as well spend iso.  But as a veteran player, you should know you're going to run into an iso shortage when you're championing your 4*s, and then again when you start pushing your 5* levels.  I mean, you should REALLY know it as a veteran.  So when that happens, instead of pushing iso into everyone, you should probably NOT spend iso to level all your 4*s - you just level a 4* if you use it all the time, or for Deadpool Daily Crash of the Titans or for SHIELD training but generally you really skimp on spending iso unless you really really really need to.

And if you didn't do that and you haven't been doing it, tough.  Just like how you want on the order of 500 legendary tokens to push into fully covered 5* transition, playing optimally, REALLY optimally, requires advance planning, and even if you already know about stockpiling legendary tokens to make the 5* transition with three fully covered 5*s, well there's other stuff like best iso spending practices.  It is what it is.  If you didn't know all the tricks, well now you know one more.

And if you don't have the infrastructure at this point to earn optimal rewards?  Maybe you spent your HP on character packages or vault pulls and spent your ISO on just leveling whoever?  Well then you can sell off your excess 3*s for iso instead of leveling, championing, then earning rewards, because you don't have the infrastructure to earn optimal rewards.   Or you can bite the bullet sell off your maxed 3* and re-roster and not be able to use that maxed 3*.  Or you can use a roster slot to roster a duplicate 3* then sell off your maxed once your duplicate is championed.  Whatever. That's just what you have to do, so buck up and do it.  Just like how if some new player blew all their legendary tokens and ended up having to sell off a lot of 4*s and 5*s they couldn't afford to roster, you have to do the sub-optimal thing because you don't have the infrastructure to do everything you want; you don't have the HP, you don't have the iso, whatever it is, if you don't have it, you have to make do without or buy it with real money.  Up to you.

Dude... I'm OP...  Just so I'm clear on your point...  I should have skimped on spending ISO on 4 & 5 stars,  so that I have it to re-roster and champ the 3* tier?

I'm truly and genuinely surprised how many people are okay with the status quo on this.  

I really don't like wasting 1000hp on a roster slot of a character I'll literally never use,  since I already have a max champ.

I really don't like diverting ISO from 4 & 5 star characters so that I can get my duplicate 3* into reward producing territory.

I really don't like that my progression at this point is tied to me turning back the clock and retreading territory that I passed years ago. 

I understand that the current system provides an HP/ISO sink that pads the developers bottom line...  but that's all it really is.

I'll go with it,  and as I said literally one post before Aardvark weighed in,  I'll treat it as a 120k ISO Latest Legend Token...   but let's just call it what it is,  a sh*tty mechanic...  a pause button to slow overall progression.

Sidenote: I really love the forum goers who jump down my throat like I'm some irrational whiner seeking something for nothing...  I'm a day 1873 player, and VIP since the system was introduced.. but also a Dad and have a full-time job,  so I make progress where I can...  and spending 230k to re-champ Marvel and Daken,  along with the 13k HP for the other 3* dupe farms I've started the past few weeks doesn't feel like progress in the least.   I proposed a solution that has apparently been suggested in the past ('prestige system'),  and you'd think I asked for 30 Latest Legends Tokens for just logging in.  Whoever first proposed the "Prestige" thing,  great idea,  would be as big a positive change as "saved covers".  Either way... Love you guys!  Fire away!

AardvarkPepper

@TheBaku:  "Just so I'm clear on your point...  I should have skimped on spending ISO on 4 & 5 stars,  so that I have it to re-roster and champ the 3* tier?" - Yes.  To elaborate, you are likely using the same 4* and 5* over and over again, with some variations.  Sure, sometimes you may use 4* Rocket and Groot and 4* Gamora, or other times you may use 4* Medusa and Carnage, or use 4* Kraven to hobble enemy specials, or America Chavez for speed; you may use 5* Thor and Okoye for PvP and switch in 5* Jessica Jones or Kitty Pryde (or whoever).  But even if you may also use 4* Luke Cage and 5* Silver Surfer (or whoever), for optimal play you probably don't *need* your entire lineup of 4*s and 5*s.  As the original post referenced maxing 3*s, I think your roster is probably quite developed to the point this is true.

So yes although you might find 4* Sandman (for example) useful or fun to use, you don't *need* to use him (and other characters similarly, they're nice to have especially when boosted but they're not so much a "need").

Saved covers was only relatively recently implemented, so to play "optimally" for premium rewards, you *would* have been trying to champion your 4*s so you wouldn't lose out on covers.  But that's the past.  It's been quite some time since saved covers were implemented, to the point that I think you would have been able to save about 2 million iso.

What was once optimal under the old non-cover-saving system is no longer optimal.  Now with saved covers, you can save covers on a 4* character that you already have 13 covers for, yet *not* put the iso into the 4* to champion it, deferring the rewards for when you do have an iso surplus.

So just when will you get that iso surplus?  Let's say you're carefully selecting three or four 5*s, seven or eight 4*s - and at your stage of development (maxed 3*s) you probably already *have* most of the utility championed 4*s.  So that means you can already pretty well be saving iso and not putting it into 4*s, and probably that would be best practice.

Eventually you'll build up a 6 million or 6.5 million iso surplus and be able to pump it into dupli-farming 3*s.  Of course in a while you'll start dupli-farming 4*s then you'll need another what is it, 12 million or 20 million, I forget.  But there is an end to the process when you no longer really need to practice austerity measures.  It may be a long way off, but it's there.

"I'm truly and genuinely surprised how many people are okay with the status quo on this.  

I really don't like wasting 1000hp on a roster slot of a character I'll literally never use,  since I already have a max champ."

When you identify something as an issue to be addressed, of course you're going to be surprised if others are indifferent.  But as I wrote, iso management isn't really such a new issue with saved covers provided players are careful about spending iso.

To elaborate a bit more - you generally don't spend iso on 4* unless you're trying to do Deadpool Daily Crash of the Titans, or unless you're doing SHIELD training.  This is why a lot of players that looked ahead and knew about iso shortages stopped leveling 4*s at 209, which is what you need for final rewards for SHIELD training.  It's not just me saying this, if you look around some player rosters you will see some players with multiple 4*s at level 209.

"I really don't like"

Nobody's invalidating your point here.  In my original response, I wrote that I got your point but that you should have seen it coming.  I mean, I really do get your point.  You are not the only one running into iso shortages.  Players with developed rosters talk about iso shortages all the time, and players that run multiple 13-cover 4*s at level 209 feel the shortage as well (or they wouldn't have stopped at 209).

What I am getting at is, as valid as your point is, there is a question of whether there are solutions that can be implemented within the system as it currently exists, or whether a new solution that requires developer resources needs to be implemented. 

If the situation really couldn't be addressed by changing player practices to better optimize returns on effort spent given the current system, then a call for change could possibly get more popular support and developer attention.  But *if* the situation *can* be addressed by players playing optimally and observing iso austerity measures, then is it really something that *needs* to get attention?  That's what I'm getting at.

And for the record, I think the situation *can* be addressed by players playing optimally.  Yes, it involves changing how players play, but imagine new players opening legendary tokens that they can't afford to roster - that too is a tremendous waste.  Which is not to justify iso shoratages, mind, two wrongs don't make a right.  But if the entire system is "imperfect" then a holistic redesign is what should be considered, not just a spot solution that will address a single subgroup of players (veterans with iso shortages) instead of the general have-imperfect-systems-that-exert-indirect-pressure-to-buy-roster-slots sort of deal.  (But all that would really be for another thread).

"Sidenote: I really love the forum goers who jump down my throat like I'm some irrational whiner seeking something for nothing.."

I really don't think what I wrote "jumps down your throat".  Maybe you felt I was going that direction, or maybe you were referencing other posters, but for my part, I acknowledged the validity of your concern and mentioned a specific solution and specific practices to address iso shortages.  If in doing so I inadvertently caused offense, I am sorry for that.

" I'm a day 1873 player, and VIP since the system was introduced.. but also a Dad and have a full-time job,  so I make progress where I can"

I've written in other posts that I think the system as currently implemented should change for the benefit of both new players and veterans.  One point I'll specifically bring up here is players should not feel that they have to go hunting on the web for written guides, wikis, and videos to gain optimal rewards for time spent-in-game.  With ever more characters being constantly released, the game is becoming increasingly unwieldy.

Well, I don't want to go too far off topic so I'll leave it at that here, except to again say, I don't mean to attack the developers by being critical; I'm simply saying the original design worked fairly decently with a limited number of characters, but introducing ever more characters (acknowledging good and valid reasons to do so), is still straining the system in terms of gameplay.

==

. . . and one more thing

My experiences may be different to whoever's reading this.  But am I right or not when I say buying iso is typically considered the worst purchase?  You need to buy a LOT of iso to make a difference, and though of course I'm not saying it's WRONG to buy iso and support the developers, it costs quite a bit of real money to make a difference when buying iso, as opposed to using money to buy HP to get roster slots so one doesn't lose covers to the fourteen day timer.

Well @readers if you're not buying iso and you're not earning it fast enough, then what can you really do?  Change practices and observe austerity measures, it's not super appealing or fun, but it's just what you do.  If you need to put iso in one place, it's got to come out of somewhere else, until you get to the point you're dupli-farming 2*s, 3*s, 4*s, and 5*s, anyways, and don't really need to do that sort of thing any more.

Daredevil217

TheBaku said:

AardvarkPepper said:

So the OP got to the point that they have maxed 3*s, then they want to earn dupli-rewards on maxed 3* without using another roster slot?  Because they're short on iso that they want to use because they're pushing the 4*-5* transition?

I mean come on now.  I hear what the OP is saying, but the OP saw this coming, right?

I'm not trying to dismiss the OP's perceived conundrum.  But the fact is, there *is* an endpoint.  I think it takes something on the order of 6 million iso to dupli-farm a full set of 3*s (mind there's significant HP costs too).  Dupli-farming 3*s means you can keep your original maxed 3* AND get rewards off the second 3* you're raising.

"b-but iso"

Look, the way I see it, when you're a new player you have iso coming out your ears and you get in this mentality that you might as well spend iso.  But as a veteran player, you should know you're going to run into an iso shortage when you're championing your 4*s, and then again when you start pushing your 5* levels.  I mean, you should REALLY know it as a veteran.  So when that happens, instead of pushing iso into everyone, you should probably NOT spend iso to level all your 4*s - you just level a 4* if you use it all the time, or for Deadpool Daily Crash of the Titans or for SHIELD training but generally you really skimp on spending iso unless you really really really need to.

And if you didn't do that and you haven't been doing it, tough.  Just like how you want on the order of 500 legendary tokens to push into fully covered 5* transition, playing optimally, REALLY optimally, requires advance planning, and even if you already know about stockpiling legendary tokens to make the 5* transition with three fully covered 5*s, well there's other stuff like best iso spending practices.  It is what it is.  If you didn't know all the tricks, well now you know one more.

And if you don't have the infrastructure at this point to earn optimal rewards?  Maybe you spent your HP on character packages or vault pulls and spent your ISO on just leveling whoever?  Well then you can sell off your excess 3*s for iso instead of leveling, championing, then earning rewards, because you don't have the infrastructure to earn optimal rewards.   Or you can bite the bullet sell off your maxed 3* and re-roster and not be able to use that maxed 3*.  Or you can use a roster slot to roster a duplicate 3* then sell off your maxed once your duplicate is championed.  Whatever. That's just what you have to do, so buck up and do it.  Just like how if some new player blew all their legendary tokens and ended up having to sell off a lot of 4*s and 5*s they couldn't afford to roster, you have to do the sub-optimal thing because you don't have the infrastructure to do everything you want; you don't have the HP, you don't have the iso, whatever it is, if you don't have it, you have to make do without or buy it with real money.  Up to you.

Dude... I'm OP...  Just so I'm clear on your point...  I should have skimped on spending ISO on 4 & 5 stars,  so that I have it to re-roster and champ the 3* tier?

He didn't say skip entirely, but picking and choosing which 4s to invest in versus dupe 3s.

I'm truly and genuinely surprised how many people are okay with the status quo on this.  

I really don't like wasting 1000hp on a roster slot of a character I'll literally never use,  since I already have a max champ.

I doubt it's a waste. If it were, you wouldn't do it.  And it's not a waste because you are getting ample resources from what you put in to that roster slot.

I really don't like diverting ISO from 4 & 5 star characters so that I can get my duplicate 3* into reward producing territory.

You don't have to do that though.  You could just sell the 3* covers and focus exclusively on 4/5*.  My buddy doesn't like constantly selling off 4* characters when he gets an insane amount from Heroics and is still in the VERY early 3* transition.  But he does it.

I really don't like that my progression at this point is tied to me turning back the clock and retreading territory that I passed years ago.

But you're not retreading.  I doubt you had max-champed 3s with a champed dupes years ago.  If you're in the 5* game, my understanding is EVERYTHING is about the rewards aside from your 2-3 best 5*.  Whether farming a 2 or getting a couple champ levels on a 4, it's all about the rewards you get to fund your fives.  Dupe 3s are no different.

I understand that the current system provides an HP/ISO sink that pads the developers bottom line...  but that's all it really is.

Absolutely, and that's okay.  Like I said earlier, the tension you feel is what causes people to spend.  It's how the lights stay on.

I'll go with it,  and as I said literally one post before Aardvark weighed in,  I'll treat it as a 120k ISO Latest Legend Token...   but let's just call it what it is,  a sh*tty mechanic...  a pause button to slow overall progression.

It actually speeds up progression.  That's why we all do it.  It slows you down now, sure, but ultimately pays off later and speeds progression overall if you work the system.  I mean sure, I'd love to have all the champ rewards without paying for them all over again, but that's a big ask.

Sidenote: I really love the forum goers who jump down my throat like I'm some irrational whiner seeking something for nothing...  I'm a day 1873 player, and VIP since the system was introduced.. but also a Dad and have a full-time job,  so I make progress where I can...  and spending 230k to re-champ Marvel and Daken,  along with the 13k HP for the other 3* dupe farms I've started the past few weeks doesn't feel like progress in the least.   I proposed a solution that has apparently been suggested in the past ('prestige system'),  and you'd think I asked for 30 Latest Legends Tokens for just logging in.  Whoever first proposed the "Prestige" thing,  great idea,  would be as big a positive change as "saved covers".  Either way... Love you guys!  Fire away!

I'm a 2 dollar a month player who chose to take on the arduous task of rostering and rechamping dupes of all 3*.  I felt so good when I got the last one done and it definitely felt like progress!  Using only myself as an example, if I woke up tomorrow to a "prestige" system the way I think you are explaining, then I could sell off all my max-champs as there would be no need for dupes- at least for farming purposes.  In fact, it would be harmful to have them since I would not get prestige rewards.  So, tomorrow this system is put in place, I would be logging in to just under 5 million iso, 23,500 HP and 47 empty roster slots, valued at 1K HP a piece.  I think they'd rather give me 30 Latest Legends, lol.

Responses in bold

Twomp_thaDJ

Phumade said:

I'm not so sure why this is an issue for you in your situation.

Keep the 3* max champ.

Yes you have to open a new roster slot for the baby dupe,  but who says you have to champ him early?  You can save every cover until you can insta max champ.

At most your only out of pocket cost is buying the next slot.  You don't have to add any levels to the baby champ until your ready and can afford the instachamp costs.

This is the same way I run my 2* farm.. but I do champ my 3* again cuz I’m at a good point where I have iso to play with 

MaxPowers

Are max 3* characters really such an advantage?

If you have maxed your 3* roster, chances are you already haveone foot in the 5* door, and you are playing at higher clearance levels.

In which case the benefit of maxed 3* characters mostly comes in the form of having a higher health pool.

Once I starting maxing out my 3* characters I started flipping them immediately, and I don't regret it. It's given me the opportunity to max even more 4 and 5* characters which has proven more useful, and I don't really have to worry about roster slots.

Additionally, if you are lucky enough to have covered Okoye, she should be able to assist the drop in 3* powers.

TheBaku

Thanks guys, i do appreciate both your advice, and your friendly tone.

I think the issue is that there is a deep chasm between playing 'optimally' (which you clearly laid out) and playing because it's fun.

I long ago gave up any allusions of meaningfully entering the 5* tier... I dont have kind of time some people have to devote to this game, and i sure as hell don't have the inclination to save 300 Latest to get a full covered 5*... I'm not even sure how i'd go about finishing the dozen or so 5* Classics that just sit on my roster at 255, even if i wanted to.

My most fun in this game comes from PVE and trying interesting team composition, or in the Shield Simulator, where I get to mix and match 4* characters into interesting permutations and combinations. Yup, i use dogs like Sandman and Kraven and even Kingpin if I feel like a masochist.

Re-rostering my 3*s and waiting for the decent rewards to come in may be 'optimal play'... But it's not fun. It doesn't move my 4* roster forward in any meaningful way. I'd rather spend 330k on finishing Quake and pairing her with my other 4* Champs than endlessly collect 3*s to 13 covers and then await champ rewards...

The first 4 years of this game a prevailing sentiment on this board was "wasting covers drains the fun from this game"... And the usual chorus of D-bags would pop in to inform us that "wasted covers keep the lights on"... Until saved covers came, and the lights stayed on. I would even wager the vast majority of players LIKE saved covers, because wasting covers wasnt fun. In my humble opinion, wasting HP and ISO for duplicate 3*s isnt much fun either... Do you see where i'm headed with this?

Rod5

Ultimately, if you haven’t got or prefer to prioritise the resources to roster or champ a dupe elsewhere you can sell the covers.

If you play a lot (PvE/PvP to a good level) you can generate a surprising amount of Iso - I would say play the long game but you’ve been playing even longer than me so probably not appropriate!

Fwiw I’m a parent with tough job etc, it is a balancing act. 

Yepyep

MaxPowers said:

Are max 3* characters really such an advantage?

If you have maxed your 3* roster, chances are you already haveone foot in the 5* door, and you are playing at higher clearance levels.

In which case the benefit of maxed 3* characters mostly comes in the form of having a higher health pool.

Once I starting maxing out my 3* characters I started flipping them immediately, and I don't regret it. It's given me the opportunity to max even more 4 and 5* characters which has proven more useful, and I don't really have to worry about roster slots.

Additionally, if you are lucky enough to have covered Okoye, she should be able to assist the drop in 3* powers.

I think it makes a very big difference. It is a serious disincentive to have a highly ranked 3* along with a couple of champed 4*s flanking. Both in PvP and in LRs, especially the latter I think.

And I've got almost all 3*s maxchamped and don't have a single champed 5*. I'm still not sure I'll ever really want to play the 5* game. Maybe, maybe not. 4* land is pretty fun. And the longer I wait to go to 5* land the better, as long as I'm investing in farm infrastructure the whole time.

Just my $.02 as a decided non-expert...

jamesh

AardvarkPepper said:

So just when will you get that iso surplus?  Let's say you're carefully selecting three or four 5*s, seven or eight 4*s - and at your stage of development (maxed 3*s) you probably already *have* most of the utility championed 4*s.  So that means you can already pretty well be saving iso and not putting it into 4*s, and probably that would be best practice.

If you haven't broken into the 5* tier, then there is a competitive advantage to having more than eight championed 4* characters.  Given the way versus match making works, having a pair of boosted 4* characters available every week gives a decent competitive advantage.

Having the pair with the best synergy is better, but simply having two boosted characters is probably the biggest change.  With five boosted 4*'s each week, this means you want at least 40% of all 4*'s champed.

If you have 5* characters that happen to currently be top tier, then you might be able to skip this.  But that can be fragile if the meta changes.  If you skipped most of the 4* tier because you had Gambit, then his nerf would have hit quite hard.

Straycat

TheBaku said:

Re-rostering my 3*s and waiting for the decent rewards to come in may be 'optimal play'... But it's not fun. It doesn't move my 4* roster forward in any meaningful way. I'd rather spend 330k on finishing Quake and pairing her with my other 4* Champs than endlessly collect 3*s to 13 covers and then await champ rewards...

Having that dupe champ can be helpful for your 4* progression. And not just the champ rewards. That max champ is just 105k iso and 1500 hp waiting to get cashed in.  When a new 4* gets released, I usually sell a max champ 3* for the roster spot. Its a bit of a drag until you get the dupe champed, but with ddq and the generous amount of 3* covers given out in pve, its not bad.

Your problem is that you are unwilling to sell off your 266. I feel like keeping a max champ is a post-iso luxury. My max beast is 364 boosted, my dupe is boosted to 278. He does 4304 AOE vs 2570. 4* required Blade does 8243 for the same green ap. Its nice to keep it as a trophy, but if you have max champs you probably have better 4* options too

AardvarkPepper

jamesh said:

AardvarkPepper said:

So just when will you get that iso surplus?  Let's say you're carefully selecting three or four 5*s, seven or eight 4*s - and at your stage of development (maxed 3*s) you probably already *have* most of the utility championed 4*s.  So that means you can already pretty well be saving iso and not putting it into 4*s, and probably that would be best practice.

If you haven't broken into the 5* tier, then there is a competitive advantage to having more than eight championed 4* characters.  Given the way versus match making works, having a pair of boosted 4* characters available every week gives a decent competitive advantage.

Having the pair with the best synergy is better, but simply having two boosted characters is probably the biggest change.  With five boosted 4*'s each week, this means you want at least 40% of all 4*'s champed.

If you have 5* characters that happen to currently be top tier, then you might be able to skip this.  But that can be fragile if the meta changes.  If you skipped most of the 4* tier because you had Gambit, then his nerf would have hit quite hard.

Generally I would say you want something on the order of twelve plus 4*s championed, maybe a few more.  Eight 4*s make the "short list' - you want about that many to boost your PvE performance and to cover niche situations, and to do a bit better in PvP as well.  Twelve to sixteen 4*s, though, is a goal I think best to shoot for once iso isn't a terrible problem.  Maybe twenty, even.  (edit - in light of later comments, to be clear - I'd say two to four carefully selected championed 4*s is a player's introduction to 4* land, then around eight to twelve (again carefully selected) start to cover more situations that you might face, then when you start hitting around twenty (again carefully selected!) start to cover those really niche situations.  But I'd say there is a limit.

Which ones? The ones that come to mind are 4*s Rocket and Groot, Medusa, Gamora, Vulture, Captain Marvel, Agent Coulson, America Chavez, Peggy Carter just generally (definitely others I'm not thinking off offhand).  Then there's niche situation characters like Kraven, Red Hulk, Thing, complementary characters like Venom (Eddie Brock version), Carnage (he doesn't really need to be championed so long as he's maxed in black covers imo).  Probably yet others I forget offhand, there are plenty that can be useful - Nightcrawler, Jean Grey, Spiderwoman, others I won't get into.  I mean, I know there are probably players that are asking in what world Iceman, Cyclops don't even get a mention and they'd be right.  And Dazzler and Luke Cage and Iron Fist and Black Panther and Shuri and Riri and Starlord and Agent Venom and Rogue etc etc.  But at some point it's like, how many do you really NEED?  Like yeah Jean Grey replaces generic Specials but her powers are expensive; Nightcrawler "goes infinite" but needs the right setup, Iceman is utility but Rocket and Groot / Gamora offers immediate Strike tiles and stun.  And though stuff like Kraven's passives really have no substitute, well, you see what I mean.  You get your general-utility 4*s, you get your niche 4*s, you prioritize what you really need, and after about twelve to sixteen you start looking at multiple characters that do the same thing in slightly different ways so maybe you don't really need both and just pick one or another.  I mean Rogue's fun for defense.  But pretty much defense is borked anyways when you're being attacked by a selected 4* team or a 5* team, so . . . yeah.

But to return to the point - @jamesh wrote about having random boosted 4*s.  Which is definitely a valid point that needed to be made because "seven to eight 4*s" is definitely not something I should have, in retrospect written, especially for this particular thread.  But my thought is what is the competitive advantage, literally, to having more than a few 4*s championed?  Or not a few, say fifteen or twenty 4*s in practical terms.  Isn't there a limit?

I would say - and this is just my opinion - having additional random 4*s doesn't break you into top 10 in PvE SCL 8; you're still facing 5* teams and much higher leveled 4*s that outrace you, nor is it enough to consistently top 10 in PvE SCL 7, and SCL 9 is pretty well 5* territory (though you CAN do it especially if you have more 4*s IMO that's when you have a more developed roster and you're still not looking at top placement).

In PvP random boosted 4*s are a lot more useful.  But even there, I don't think even random boosted 4*s are quite enough.  I'd say there are four levels of performance in the 4* tier in PvP.  First, if you have a couple synergistic 4*s like Medusa and Rocket and Groot then you can break a lot of teams with ease that you couldn't before.  That's the first step and you get there pretty quick if you picked and chose which 4*s to prioritize.  Second, if you have a few more synergistic 4*s to handle niche cases, which comes a bit slower but still happens in relatively short order (though we're talking a matter of over half a year for a free player I'd say?).  Third, if you have a really broad developed roster of 4*s to handle more and more niche situations and to take advantage of boosts and to save on health packs - I'd say this is where the OP is and about where jamesh's comments are most accurate.  Fourth, if you have really leveled championed synergistic 4*s, which is really late and there's not much you can do about it to rush it, because we're talking about a hundred levels of difference or whatever.

The key, to my mind, is I don't think you break into the highest tier of 4* play any other way than by grinding or spending a lot.  You just need a load of 4* covers.  Spending more iso on more random 4*s slightly improves your performance in the next-to-highest tier of 4* play no doubt, but I think it's only slight after a certain point.  Once you cover the basic 4*s and the more niche situation 4*s, you're looking at duplicate abilities or stuff you don't really need so much.  Well that's my opinion.

On the other hand if you're dupli-farming 3*s, you're getting CP/token/HP gains, and those gains *are* fueling your push into that highest tier of 4* play where you're generating more 4* covers and getting legendary tokens, which raises your 4* levels and gets you 5* pulls.  It's definitely slow, no doubt about it.  Terribly slow.  But what are you really losing?  You're only deferring your 4* rewards because of saved covers; you're not losing your 4* rewards.  (Saved covers were a big game changer).  So doesn't it just make sense for your long term development?  Do you really want to give up that growth, however slow, in favor of no growth?

I'd say ideally you dupli-farm 3*s because 100 levels of difference on a 3* makes a difference in performance.  Significantly better damage (yes after a character is championed each level doesn't raise damage much, but it's 100 levels) - and bolstered HP.  And bolstered HP seems pretty lame but in PvP if you have an additional 7000 HP it means your team is slower to kill off, which makes players think twice before attacking you.  It's not that the 3* makes a huge difference, it's just that if you have two players running the same team of the same two 4*s and the same Essential 3*, and one has a really high level 3* and the other doesn't, well, which would you fight in PvP?  Bolstered HP also means less health pack use; a 7000 HP character that takes 4000 damage is in the danger range when starting with 3000 HP, but a maxed 10000 HP character that took 4000 damage has a bit of a safety net when it's starting with 6000 HP.

I'm not saying 3* dupli-farming is all peaches and cream.  3* dupli-farming takes a load of HP for roster slots and (forty-seven additional slots) and over six million iso.  That investment's going to hurt, and what do you really get out of it?  You get to maintain your maxed 3* for use (which is nice but not super super great) and you get the dupli-farmed 3*'s champion rewards as you raise it.  If you don't have the HP to spare, especially, or if you don't want to affect your PvE or PvP performance, you either give up 3* rewards on that character and sell excess covers, or you sell the maxed 3* and lose its utility in PvE and PvP, it's just what you have to do - make a choice, give up one or the other, because you can't have both.

But if you DO have the HP to dupli-farm 3*s, then what?  Either you use that iso to dupli-farm 3*s and maintain your maxed 3* and also get the CP/HP/token rewards off the duplicate 3*.  Or you use that iso to raise another 4*.  But are those 4*s fueling that push into higher level 4* play or 5* tier?  I don't think so, not so much.  And key - with saved covers, you're only deferring your gains off 4* champion rewards.  For maxed 3*s, you either sell

Definitely when I quoted "seven or eight 4*s" that's on the shorter end of where you want to be to have a comfortable 4* lineup, and not really appropriate to the original poster's situation who I'd say probably has at least 20 championed 4*s anyways (a guess but given what the OP wrote I think a reasonable one).  But if you think on it, once you're covering niche situations and building out your teams a bit, how many utility 4*s do you REALLY NEED?  Whether you draw the line at fifteen or twenty, there's a limit, don't you think?  Especially if you've carefully selected which 4*s you're championing.  And then what happens if you get ever more 4*s?  Am I right in saying ever more indifferent boosted 4*s doesn't really improve even your PvP performance much?  Yes, this is definitely a moving-goalposts sort of argument, but there's no way to avoid that, because if you DO have the HP for roster slots and iso to spare, there's NO QUESTION that you dupli-farm 3*s, and if you do NOT have the HP for roster slots and you do NOT have iso to spare, and if you do NOT have eight to eighteen or so 4*s depending on your rate of cover collection and style of play (for example if you were inactive and did a lot of DDQ you'd have a less developed 4* roster but more iso, compared to players that did a lot of events at least semioptimally) then you CAN'T just dupli-farm 3*s because you have to allocate your limited resources.

So to the OP's particular situation?  Well I'd say - again, to me, it reads like a question of allocation.  If you're pumping iso into every 4* you can, and you're also starting to run 5*s maybe, and you're also looking at starting to dupli-farm 3*s, and let's say you weren't super careful in advance to stockpile HP and iso in anticipation of this time - and we're talking months of savings in advance - then yeah you're looking at a real iso crunch.  Even if you sell off maxed 3* for iso gains, you still net lose iso when you champion another 3* (am I right?) and though additional 3* covers fuel some iso gain, there's a big drop-off.  So you MUST conserve iso.

And in that situation I'd say - considering 3* farming gains HP, CP, and tokens, it pushes you into that higher tier of play (though slowly).  So regardless of the costs, whether it's selling off a maxed 3* or having to net lose iso when farming up another 3*, I think it's just something you want to do.  You lose iso, but you're fueling your long-term game.  So you do what you *have* to do to fuel long-term growth.  (Or you give up on that long-term growth, but if you're playing enough to max 3*s then you're basically a long-term growth player anyways.)

So though I really really think jamesh made a good point, especially when calling out my quoted figure of "seven to eight 4*s" which I have to say really is on the low end especially for someone in the OP's position but also for many that might be reading and considering points I made - although I'd agree you are going to see performance gains especially in PvP by developing that 4* roster, certainly to the point that you want to roster on the order of fifteen plus to maybe twenty or a few more 4*s - I'd say again - what are you really gaining?  As real as those gains are, do they offset the gains you get from 3* farming?  And this is really a point not directed to the OP but to other commenters or those reading other comments in this thread.  My thought is there's no way you want to give up those 3* champion rewards, just no way, you want to try to make it work somehow.  And because of saved covers you're not looking at losing your 4* character rewards, you're just deferring them (though you are losing out on either a maxed 3* or you're giving up 3* champion rewards if you don't do some form of 3* farming).

@jamesh thanks for the correction, though you didn't quite call me out.  Especially in context of a reply to the OP, my quoting "seven or eight 4*s" is way on the low end, and it also is an inappropriate figure to quote for most players that are looking at the maxed 3* question and whether to dupli-farm, restart 3*, or forego 3* champion rewards.  But though definitely I have to agree that you do want to push to FIFTEEN TO TWENTY OR EVEN A FEW MORE 4*s to cover more of the niche situations whether doing PvE, PvP, or both, I still think there IS a limit, and that you DO want to be very careful about iso discipline for a long time, and I also think you do NOT want to give up 3* farming if you can at all help it.  Mind again, if you are really pushing PvP, especially if you're only doing PvP, I can see more of a case for pushing for a more developed 4* roster, but even then, I like long-term growth.

Rod5

And the winner for the longest post in MPQ forum history goes to...

TheBaku

AardvarkPepper said:

roster.

OP Here,  it's 53 champed 4 stars...  but again,  I am, and will forever be,  a 4* player...   I don't have the time or inclination to 'work the system' in such a way that 5* characters are acheivable...

Love your details replies bud,  you make a lot a of sense...  and I do appreciate the insight!

AardvarkPepper

Rod5 said:

And the winner for the longest post in MPQ forum history goes to...

yey i am winar

money, power, respect, matching silverware, here I com

JackTenrec

Sweet merciful wall of text.  Sorry to go off topic, but please, for the love of Paste Pot Pete, if you're going to quote any of that edit the quote to remove the stuff you're not responding to.  This page is already close to unreadable, and it's only going to get worse without responsible post etiquette.