Why have new character discussions dropped off?

Daredevil217

Has anyone noticed that character discussions aren’t as active as they used to be?

I remember years ago when a new character dropped we would discuss them for pages, debate how good they are, theorize good teams for them, debate best builds, cheer or boo the development team, and on and on.  This was especially true for 4* characters.  Now you look at the different character pages and it’s like a ghost town. Sometimes when a character is particularly complex we may hit two pages but for the most part there isn’t much discussion. 

Why do you all think this is?

1) Are there simply less players? Is the game not as hot as it was when those threads were popping?
2) Is it that the discussions are still happening... just on other platforms (Line/Discord)?
3) Is it because there’s more character discussion in the announcement thread and less in the official character thread (which usually comes much later)?
4) Are most people here uninterested in 4* characters no matter how cool they are, because they are just champ reward factories to fuel fives?
5) Are most people here uninterested in 5* characters no matter how cool they are, if they aren’t able to unseat the current best two 5*?
6) Since almost all traffic is in “General Discussion”, are people just not visiting the character discussion sub forum?

I’m guessing there’s a bit of truth to all of the above but am wondering why you all think those individual character discussions don’t happen like they used to? My favorite part of these forums used to be the fan-run character rankings that were voted on and reran every so often. Now, with cover save maybe champing “the right” characters isn’t as important but I’d be lying if I didn’t say that part of me really misses those days. 

Nick441234

3 and 6 for me. I barely bother with the character discussion forum other than to check on the poll results when deciding what build to go with. 

Tony_Foot

4 and 5 for me. 

I don’t care about four stars, I don’t look at them unless I see lots of them in pvp, like Chavez. I don’t put any effort into learning what they do anymore. 

5* I look into but can’t be bothered discussing them when I see they won’t replace the 5* battery. People can talk fun mechanics all they want but the game is just speed and I can’t be bothered to line up the ducks with a certain characters power when I can just watch Thor generate his own AP. There are plenty of interesting character mechanics and powers, but they have all come up short one way or another since okoye. A few are a minor tweak away from being great.

I even unsubscribed from the podcast and stopped listening because I don’t need to hear about 3 or 4 stars being discussed or other parts of the game I’m never using.


Id also like to add, there are better places to discuss the game and characters anyway, especially since the forum rework/nerf. So many of the threads were destroyed with the new layout that I think that’s when the rot started with character threads.

Dragon_Nexus

I think a lot of us have shifted into 5* land.

I couldn't tell you what most of the new 4*s do since Kraven, tbh. I roster them, I champ them and I kinda forget about them unless they become a 5* feeder.

The issue with the 5* tier is that it's still relatively small compared to the 4* tier, so there's still a diversity problem. So the top two or three 5*s are the ones you'll go for first and the ones you'll stick to. Since they're pretty hard to acquire due to RNG, the question for a new one becomes "Are they better than Thor/Okoye? No? Well I'll champ them eventually I guess."

You *need* to be choosy with 5*s. It's more of an investment in time and ISO to get them up to snuff. And opening legendaries when someone like Wasp or Doc Ock is stinking up the tokens can feel like a waste of resources.

wymtime

More 4 and 5.  A 4* just does not change the meta for a lot of long time forum players.  Even 5* if they are not meta changing become meat shields for PVE if you are looking to champ them.  

Also this when the meta was 2* and 3* the new character was necessary to play PVP and PVE. It drove discussion and the people on the forums were also the people who would champ them right away to use them in events.  Now A 4* does not take too long to champ, but a lot of forum players just use them for essentials in PVE.

Dormammu

Daredevil217 said:

4) Are most people here uninterested in 4* characters no matter how cool they are, because they are just champ reward factories to fuel fives?

Dragon_Nexus said:

I think a lot of us have shifted into 5* land.

I don't even know what the last half dozen 4-star releases do....

shardwick

I get most of my discussion for a new character from the announcement thread. Something that really annoys me though is that when @Brigby closes the announcement thread it deletes all of the replies in that thread and people tend to post some really good info about potential teams that you could use for that character. There has to be an option in the mod tools where closing a thread doesn't also delete every reply in that thread. 

The rockett

Daredevil217 said: 

Why do you all think this is?

1) Are there simply less players? Is the game not as hot as it was when those threads were popping?
2) Is it that the discussions are still happening... just on other platforms (Line/Discord)?
3) Is it because there’s more character discussion in the announcement thread and less in the official character thread (which usually comes much later)?
4) Are most people here uninterested in 4* characters no matter how cool they are, because they are just champ reward factories to fuel fives?
5) Are most people here uninterested in 5* characters no matter how cool they are, if they aren’t able to unseat the current best two 5*?
6) Since almost all traffic is in “General Discussion”, are people just not visiting the character discussion sub forum?

1-  Yes there are less players in game now. I had data that is was tracking with the number of players for the past season but tbh I just don’t care about it anymore. That is kinda the feeling of a lot of long term people

2. They are happening on Line it Discord but not much. 

3 maybe. Not sure. 

4. Yes yes yes.  Most of the 4* for vet and 5* players are useless unless above a 320 or so level.  You do get the American Chavez type that just are such a great compliment to 5* that do break that mold.  But no matter how much they want to push Emma, she is terrible. Also so many 4’s who really cares?  

5. It is always about the meta game.  So is the best and how good are they plus who do they work with. 

6. Maybe as well. 

ZootSax

The new character announcements used to be in the character thread and not a separate one.  The threads were only later edited with the character's name.  You'd get the color and very rough power description (without numbers for damage, etc) for a character's powers, but not the name of either the character or their powers until the formal announcement was made.  That's why the early posts in some of the old character discussion threads were speculation on who the character was, rather than strictly on the powers or more relevant character details.  For example, here's page one of Kate Bishop's thread (a randomly chosen, older character that shows this):
https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/44866/kate-bishop-hawkeye/p1

With how the announcements are made now, it's just different, so more of the character discussions take place outside the Character Discussion sub-forum.

randomhero1090

Couple things....

Majority of the people on this forum have been playing for 2+ years and/or are in 5* land.  4* releases don't matter much.  Taskmaster got some hype because of how unique he is.  Chavez gets talked about because she's almost a 5* player.  Other than that, 5* get all the attention.

I do most of my deep discussion on the game/strategy/releases on Line.

People see the metas, it's pretty simple.  AP gen, tile gen, stun, AOE.  This is why Grockdusa is so damn effective.  Why 1/2Thor is on most teams.  Okoye has added a new little nugget with the damage buffing.  Okoye/Dusa so darn popular now.  So there's a new meta you can play with.

You release a 4* that plays strong in a meta and you got something.  Hell, even the 5* have to have something meta.  Otherwise, it's just a collector's item.

ThaRoadWarrior

I always felt like the early impressions in those threads were misleading, or wrong, and it took till people had been able to live with the character for awhile before you started to get actual opinions on them. So I tend to check out the general announcement thread for a bit, then once I get that character champed I'll go back and look around for teams in the case of 4*s. 5*s are still not a place where I'm getting enough covers on them to really need an awareness of their deal, just node access in story, so I look at what they do and then forget about them usually. 

Once you have 1/3-1/2 of the 4* tier champed, you usually have perfectly serviceable teams for any situation, so the new characters are basically just different ways to do the same thing on the same colors. It's only when you see somebody novel like Chavez come in where figuring out the best place to run them can benefit from the groupthink, or if somebody seems truly bottom tier like Widow that I'll be like "IS she this terrible, or am I wrong?"

Daredevil217

Wow, thanks everyone for the replies. It seems like there’s a little bit of everything. I totally forgot about the character threads starting as speculation threads but that’s right!

And yeah it seems that the most prevalent issue is if it isn’t a meta breaking 5 people don’t care, which is sad because some of these 4s and even 5s (Cable/Kitty) are pretty dang fun even if not Thorkoye level effective. I’m more amped for Domino than I’ve been for a 4* in a very long time. I can’t wait for her to enter tokens as I think her red has some crazy nuke potential in the 4* tier depending on how it boosts. She also has some decent battery potential with Thor in the 5* tier. With him removing three colors and her constantly dropping one, you have some great cascade and battery potential for a third character (Jessica?) to use.

I thought about starting another thread suggesting an overhaul to PVP. Though this wouldn’t be a novel request. The fact remains that it’s beyond antiquated. I think Combined Arms is 5* players favorite event because they can’t use their 5*! I think this is telling and we need more events where you are rewarded for having a diverse roster. An AVX PVP where you choose whether to have X-men OR Avengers boosted. More Heroic PVEs where characters are limited but loaners of all characters are given. That way people with fleshed out rosters get rewarded for their work and newer players aren’t locked out and can try characters they otherwise couldn’t play (maybe more incentive to chase). 

I’m not sure exactly what the answer is, but I know for many who’ve transitioned beyond the 4* tier; characters feel like janitor keys they use to unlock a node a few times a year but otherwise hang on the giant keychain unused. Give us more events where we are rewarded for growing our roster and not just busting a hoard at the right time and more people would transition I’d imagine. 

Straycat

I would add dilution as factor. Both in how long it takes to cover new characters and just how many characters there are. Add in the fact that they haven't been that innovative or that good. Most times you'd have a higher level champ that can do what any new character can.

Not to add to the "is the game dying?" narrative, but I feel like they are running out of ideas. I really felt it with Dazzler. Her color and moveset felt off, and it was so similar to Nebula who was just released.The last really new idea I thought was Wiccan, but I've never heard of him and he takes too much to get going. Maybe its a false perception, but I felt like we are having more overlap of ideas recently. Lots of repeater tiles, special tiles, or revives.

randomhero1090

@Daredevil217 @Straycat

Pretty simple solution to me.....  Time to retire covers.  Do some "relaunches."  Kinda like what they did with Gambit, but maybe a little juicer.  Earn tokens to select stores.  Make some popular 5s available so newer players can grow their 5* base.

ThaRoadWarrior

I'd quit if my progress were impermanent. Retiring covers would invalidate your roster, not invigorate it.

randomhero1090

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I'd quit if my progress were impermanent. Retiring covers would invalidate your roster, not invigorate it.

How?  If you have 4s just sitting there you never, ever use, what's the point of having them?

Daredevil217

randomhero1090 said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I'd quit if my progress were impermanent. Retiring covers would invalidate your roster, not invigorate it.

How?  If you have 4s just sitting there you never, ever use, what's the point of having them?

Hey! I use most my 4*. Sandman was my most used 4 in the Psylocke PVP thank you very much. That’s my answer. The answer for others... probably champ rewards. Also 4s are apparently playable with 5s if you get them high enough and keep your champ 5s low enough. 

Colognoisseur

To answer the first question i have always had my new character discussion on Line with a group of other players who also get enough covers for new characters early enough to play with them. TheRoadWarrior is correct that those early thread speculation threads were often meaningless. It takes some time actually playing with the new character to understand how it works.

With dilution as bad as it is in 4-star if you already have Grocket, Gamora, and Medusa at usable levels to meet your goals why would you want to start from zero to make a team which can battle that? They have designed characters that completely shut it down but good luck pulling covers enough to get them usable. That right there is why a discussion thread is near useless.

Bottom line is the few who have the characters covered enough to know whether they are good talking to those who have little to no chance to cover them seems futile in 4-star world.

Because of hoarding it is a lot different for 5-stars. Fairly rapidly after a new release there are more than a few fully covered versions running around allowing for real assessments to take place. the better the perception of the character the more different perspectives you get. It is also different because even the mid-tier 5-stars can be used effectively if you want to make the jump to 5-star competition.

Not only do you get real experience from playing but you also get experience playing against whatever the current meta is. Already opinions on Kitty and Cable have been rendered as to their value in PvP and PvE because they can be used.

Bottom line in 5-star new characters is there is plenty of meaningful discussion, instead of speculation, paired with an ability to go hard for tokens or to crack a hoard if you think that character is good for your play style.

ThaRoadWarrior

Wouldn't a mode that allowed/incentivized me to use them be superior to just taking them away? For example let me send them out on missions to earn resources for me in the background, and I can't use or loan them out until they get back. This mode could scale based on how complete the character was when sent out, so a 1-cover Cable isn't as good as committing my 13 cover Cable to that mission. Or even easier than that, just double how many 4*s are boosted every week, that way I'm not just playing the same 1-5 characters in every mission strictly because of the power delta between boosted and un-boosted characters. Alternatively stop boosting characters. Make the flat odds of 4* acquisition match the flat-tax of nobody being boosted, so you can play with anyone you have around. I don't know how many people are climbing PVP with un-champed-but-boosted 4*s, but in my experience those teams get eaten alive.

The reason retiring feels like it invalidates my progress is because it does invalidate my progress. I've sunk a bunch of time into my roster to get it to the point it is now, and if my "good" 4*s or well covered 5*s were just summarily discarded out from under me, it would be pointless to play the way I do. The amount of time it takes based on the current game economy to build a roster of characters is such that I"m almost certain what would happen to me is that I'd finally get them covered/built right before they got retired.

It would be like having an HSA High Deductible health insurance plan and only hitting your deductible in December, and having 2-3 weeks to enjoy your 100% coverage after spending the year being out-of-pocket on all your medical expenses before January hit and you start all over again paying out of pocket.

Colognoisseur

As for the other discussion taking place.

Retiring characters is not a popular choice as Demiurge has tried to do that to find players unhappy withou being able to collect them all.

I have always been an advocate for larger weekly boost lists with a 5-star thrown in for good measure. That would get some of the lesser used characters off the bench. I would even like to see something like "X-Men Week" all characters with XMen affiliation are boosted followed by Villains Week, Avengers Week, etc. Larger boost lists would create opportunities.

I also would really like to see the developers create different token pools which would allow advanced players to concentrate on getting a character they want increasing the odds of drawing a particular cover. It wouldn't be as simple as a latest/classic split it would need to be something with covers from most recent to earliest just in smaller pools.

hopper1979

The discussions are still there just not on the character pages, when they are released there are tons of comments and discussion in the announcement page but they do not get moved to the character pages.  It is too bad a lot of good information is in the pages but they are harder to find and sort through.