New Supports - Hope Summers (10/23/18)

tiomono

Spudgutter said:

tiomono said:

@spudgutter I'm not sure on the 5* variant of the supports. They can still be useful even if not at the 5* level.

@cyineedsn well that stinks.

My point is that they are not impossible to get. They definitely need tweaking to make it easier, but many people have such a deep seated hatred for the supports that regardless of what the devs do they get criticized for it and I find that tiring.

@tiomono

You helped prove my point.  The only reason you seem to be ok with them is *precisely* because you were lucky enough to get them.  I also pull the 100 hp offer everyday, on every vault, supports or otherwise.  I am top 50 cl9 pve, top 100 pve alliance, top 25 cl9 pvp and top 25 pvp alliance.  I pull what could be argued as "more than my fair share" of tokens.  Of your list above, i have

2* shuri's lab
2* spider sense

That's it.

You, and subsequently others, are "tired" of hearing the criticism of the have-nots strictly because you are in the land of the haves.  

You say they are not impossible to get, and this is technically true.  But to the vast majority, literally due to the way the odds work, they may as well be impossible.  

The problem with the devs being criticized "regardless of what they do" is because they are not doing anything.  The first time new supports were added, but were not to the support store, I'm pretty sure it was brought to their attention. That number is now 20.  You dont think that is a valid criticism?

In your eyes they are doing nothing. In reality they increased the rate red iso is given in events. And when they say they are looking into availability of the actual supports (which is doing something) you say " too little too late".

 I never said supports were fine as is. I said they still need adjusted. I just did a player survey and I listed 2 things they could do better. 1) do anything with the dead prologue tab. Once you earn the rewards it's pointless because you cannot even reread the story. 2) Support availability needs tuned because currently they are more rare than 5 star characters and that feels bizarre.

So yes I find it tiring when they constantly get hit with claims of "paywall", "doing nothing", and "too little too late". Which is it? Are they doing nothing or too little? Are supports behind a paywall or "technically" available to everyone. You are exxagerating and contradicting yourself because you are upset at the state of supports (rightfully so).

This dev team is not known for fast responses on tuning things. But they eventually do tune things that are problems. Support availability is a problem and they are looking into it.

This is getting way off of the topic of hope as a support though so I'm done with this line of conversation in this topic. I understand your view and to a degree I agree. I just feel the devs deserve a tad more credit.

Spudgutter

tiomono said:

Spudgutter said:

tiomono said:

@spudgutter I'm not sure on the 5* variant of the supports. They can still be useful even if not at the 5* level.

@cyineedsn well that stinks.

My point is that they are not impossible to get. They definitely need tweaking to make it easier, but many people have such a deep seated hatred for the supports that regardless of what the devs do they get criticized for it and I find that tiring.

@tiomono

You helped prove my point.  The only reason you seem to be ok with them is *precisely* because you were lucky enough to get them.  I also pull the 100 hp offer everyday, on every vault, supports or otherwise.  I am top 50 cl9 pve, top 100 pve alliance, top 25 cl9 pvp and top 25 pvp alliance.  I pull what could be argued as "more than my fair share" of tokens.  Of your list above, i have

2* shuri's lab
2* spider sense

That's it.

You, and subsequently others, are "tired" of hearing the criticism of the have-nots strictly because you are in the land of the haves.  

You say they are not impossible to get, and this is technically true.  But to the vast majority, literally due to the way the odds work, they may as well be impossible.  

The problem with the devs being criticized "regardless of what they do" is because they are not doing anything.  The first time new supports were added, but were not to the support store, I'm pretty sure it was brought to their attention. That number is now 20.  You dont think that is a valid criticism?

In your eyes they are doing nothing. In reality they increased the rate red iso is given in events. And when they say they are looking into availability of the actual supports (which is doing something) you say " too little too late".

 I never said supports were fine as is. I said they still need adjusted. I just did a player survey and I listed 2 things they could do better. 1) do anything with the dead prologue tab. Once you earn the rewards it's pointless because you cannot even reread the story. 2) Support availability needs tuned because currently they are more rare than 5 star characters and that feels bizarre.

So yes I find it tiring when they constantly get hit with claims of "paywall", "doing nothing", and "too little too late". Which is it? Are they doing nothing or too little? Are supports behind a paywall or "technically" available to everyone. You are exaggerating and contradicting yourself because you are upset at the state of supports (rightfully so).

This dev team is not known for fast responses on tuning things. But they eventually do tune things that are problems. Support availability is a problem and they are looking into it.

This is getting way off of the topic of hope as a support though so I'm done with this line of conversation in this topic. I understand your view and to a degree I agree. I just feel the devs deserve a tad more credit.

Increasing the rate of riso, and the ease of acquiring new supports are two issues.  That said, the riso increase is still probably still a little low, i did the math in that thread about how long it would take to get all of your supports to a usable level

for the "too little too late" versus "doing nothing," it's both.  they haven't done much of anything, so i get that people are turned off permanently.  if you get food poisoning at a restaurant a couple of times, i would understand you never going again, even if they change the menu.  The devs put a bad taste in our mouths with the support roll out, the onus is on them to make it better, not on us to just accept that they "are looking into it."

as to exaggerating myself, i edited my post even though i still think i am correct, because i have no problem being wrong, and am waiting for someone to correct me.  Grimskald said earlier in the thread "It's not even a matter of money - you either need to spend HP or CP when a new support comes out or... well actually that's it."  people may have different perceptions of a paywall, but i think locking them behind those two currencies should fall under that definition.  

Dormammu

Spudgutter said:

Mind if i look at that support you equipped medusa?  It increases her damage 33%?  Seems like an impressive bump.  But not for me, or anyone else at cl9.  One node in pve, the enemies have a combined health of 116131.  That 237 extra damage is 0.002% extra damage.

Well, my Medusa's countdown did do 750 damage every turn. Now it does 1000 every turn with the support equipped. That's 33% more damage every turn, regardless of how much health my enemies have or what SCL I play in.

tiomono

@Spudgutter

I know I said I was done sorry lol.

I just dont consider items that you get with currency you earn in game to be behind a paywall.  To me a paywall is you put down cash or you cannot get it. But I get what your saying.

It just reminds me of how long it took them to address gambit and the agonizing radio silence in the meantime. I honestly feel they do get that it's not good right now and they are trying to come up with a solution that doesn't oversaturate the availability of them so they still feel somewhat rare but actually letting us get some.

DeNappa

Spudgutter said:

tiomono said:

@spudgutter I'm not sure on the 5* variant of the supports. They can still be useful even if not at the 5* level.

@cyineedsn well that stinks.

My point is that they are not impossible to get. They definitely need tweaking to make it easier, but many people have such a deep seated hatred for the supports that regardless of what the devs do they get criticized for it and I find that tiring.

@tiomono

You helped prove my point.  The only reason you seem to be ok with them is *precisely* because you were lucky enough to get them.  I also pull the 100 hp offer everyday, on every vault, supports or otherwise.  I am top 50 cl9 pve, top 100 pve alliance, top 25 cl9 pvp and top 25 pvp alliance.  I pull what could be argued as "more than my fair share" of tokens.  Of your list above, i have

2* shuri's lab
2* spider sense

That's it.

You, and subsequently others, are "tired" of hearing the criticism of the have-nots strictly because you are in the land of the haves.  

You say they are not impossible to get, and this is technically true.  But to the vast majority, literally due to the way the odds work, they may as well be impossible.  

The problem with the devs being criticized "regardless of what they do" is because they are not doing anything.  The first time new supports were added, but were not to the support store, I'm pretty sure it was brought to their attention. That number is now 20.  You dont think that is a valid criticism?

I’m confused — do you have only 2 supports, or only 2 level 2 supports? (Doesn’t really become clear from the way you worded it).

Even some rank 1 supports can already be a nice bonus. And i believe that is what the devs want them to be : a nice bonus that can bring a strategic advantage at times. Not a ‘equip this to win the match’ feature.

Your point seems to be that supports suck because the availability suck, that opinion being extra fueled by the fact that you have been among the unlucky ones that never pulled higher ranked supports. But I think people who like supports never questioned the fact that their availability should be improved. Even those who have been lucky enough to pull better / higher ranked supports.

Also, the devs haven't been 'not doing anything'.  But have you ever seen them address issues quickly? (Hint : go take a look at the 'known bugs' threAd and check how long some of the bugs have been known already).     

Yes, The rollout of supports has been atrocious, but since then they *did* improve RISO rewards. Now let's hope they will do something about the availability and ranking. Tbh, I'm not getting my hopes up and I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if they addressed this within the next 3 months)

Spudgutter

tiomono said:

It just reminds me of how long it took them to address the agonizing radio silence in the meantime. I honestly feel they do get that it's not good right now and they are trying to come up with a solution that doesn't oversaturate the availability of them so they still feel somewhat rare but actually letting us get some.

And that is basically the bulk of my issue.  They take tooooo long to address things.  We have seen things take forever, and i think that is the wrong way to go, personally.  All it does is create more ill will.  Just turn the dial a little bit, see if it works, make tweaks from there.  Maybe double the number of tokens in their vault from 2 to 4.  Maybe increase the chances for higher rarity from 1:24 to 1:20. 

Small steps are better than no steps, and definitely better than their usual two steps forward, one step back.

Spudgutter

Dormammu said:

Spudgutter said:

Mind if i look at that support you equipped medusa?  It increases her damage 33%?  Seems like an impressive bump.  But not for me, or anyone else at cl9.  One node in pve, the enemies have a combined health of 116131.  That 237 extra damage is 0.002% extra damage.

Well, my Medusa's countdown did do 750 damage every turn. Now it does 1000 every turn with the support equipped. That's 33% more damage every turn, regardless of how much health my enemies have or what SCL I play in.

Agree to disagree, you are arguing semantics here.  I didn't say it wasnt 33%, i am saying it isn't relevant and doesn't make a difference.  In scl9, pve matches last probably around 10-15 matches (not sure, never counted) depending on the boost list.  That extra damage is probably not making much of a difference, since it only happens once the countdown tile goes out, and if it isnt matched away.  

You know what, i will even concede that if it goes out, stays out, and is not matched away, it could add up to around 2500 damage, which is around the match damage for a 5* of their primary color.  So, i was wrong, in some occasions, it would end the match 1 turn earlier.  Great.

Now, if someone reading this thread sees that is a good strategy and wants to copy it, they can.  Bust their behind to place well when medusa is the placement reward for pve and pvp.   Set her as their only BH, to increase their covers. Now they are all set, got her to a usable level, now they can go after that support.  Uh oh, they cant.  They have to wait until they are lucky enough to get a support token, and then compound that luck to get that specific support.  Yeah, great plan.

Spudgutter

DeNappa said:

Spudgutter said:

tiomono said:

@spudgutter I'm not sure on the 5* variant of the supports. They can still be useful even if not at the 5* level.

@cyineedsn well that stinks.

My point is that they are not impossible to get. They definitely need tweaking to make it easier, but many people have such a deep seated hatred for the supports that regardless of what the devs do they get criticized for it and I find that tiring.

@tiomono

You helped prove my point.  The only reason you seem to be ok with them is *precisely* because you were lucky enough to get them.  I also pull the 100 hp offer everyday, on every vault, supports or otherwise.  I am top 50 cl9 pve, top 100 pve alliance, top 25 cl9 pvp and top 25 pvp alliance.  I pull what could be argued as "more than my fair share" of tokens.  Of your list above, i have

2* shuri's lab
2* spider sense

That's it.

You, and subsequently others, are "tired" of hearing the criticism of the have-nots strictly because you are in the land of the haves.  

You say they are not impossible to get, and this is technically true.  But to the vast majority, literally due to the way the odds work, they may as well be impossible.  

The problem with the devs being criticized "regardless of what they do" is because they are not doing anything.  The first time new supports were added, but were not to the support store, I'm pretty sure it was brought to their attention. That number is now 20.  You dont think that is a valid criticism?

I’m confused — do you have only 2 supports, or only 2 level 2 supports? (Doesn’t really become clear from the way you worded it).

Even some rank 1 supports can already be a nice bonus. And i believe that is what the devs want them to be : a nice bonus that can bring a strategic advantage at times. Not a ‘equip this to win the match’ feature.

Your point seems to be that supports suck because the availability suck, that opinion being extra fueled by the fact that you have been among the unlucky ones that never pulled higher ranked supports. But I think people who like supports never questioned the fact that their availability should be improved. Even those who have been lucky enough to pull better / higher ranked supports.

Also, the devs haven't been 'not doing anything'.  But have you ever seen them address issues quickly? (Hint : go take a look at the 'known bugs' threAd and check how long some of the bugs have been known already).     

Yes, The rollout of supports has been atrocious, but since then they *did* improve RISO rewards. Now let's hope they will do something about the availability and ranking. Tbh, I'm not getting my hopes up and I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if they addressed this within the next 3 months)

Of the 44 supports, 6 are only for those that place 1st in a particular  season.  Of the remaining, only 18 are in a support token, if you get one.  Of the ones that you cannot get, you have to get them when they are offered, which so far has not been very often.  Of that list of rarely gotten supports, tiomono had several, and made it seem like they are "not impossible to get" and inferred that griping about it was due to hatred of supports in general. I was pointing out that of that list, i only had those 2.  

As to supports sucking, they kinda do, but only because they are practically impossible to get, and for the first 6 months or so, we barely got the riso to level them.  

As to people who like supports not questioning their availability be improved; this is brought up several times.  Typically, broll will post how he hates supports, and someone replies to him and says something along the lines of "you just dont like them, whatevs."  Later in that thread, they will admit they have some 3* or 4* support that they lucked into, and cannot see why the rest of us dont seem to like them as much as they do.  Look at my post above to dormammu.  So basically, i was pointing out to tiomono that they were making the same bad faith argument, that we dont like them because we dont have them.  Its because we dont have the chance to even get them!  Im sure there are some good ones in there, and may be useful to several people.  My problem with them is that there is no path to get them.

Dormammu

Spudgutter said:

Dormammu said:

Spudgutter said:

Mind if i look at that support you equipped medusa?  It increases her damage 33%?  Seems like an impressive bump.  But not for me, or anyone else at cl9.  One node in pve, the enemies have a combined health of 116131.  That 237 extra damage is 0.002% extra damage.

Well, my Medusa's countdown did do 750 damage every turn. Now it does 1000 every turn with the support equipped. That's 33% more damage every turn, regardless of how much health my enemies have or what SCL I play in.

Agree to disagree, you are arguing semantics here.  I didn't say it wasnt 33%, i am saying it isn't relevant and doesn't make a difference.

It doesn't make a difference to you.

In my original post I stated it was pretty insignificant and wouldn't elevate me an SCL or propel me anywhere. I just said I liked it. I enjoy finding uses for even my rank 1 supports. They may not add much, but they add more than I had and that's enough for me to enjoy them.

Brigby

*Please keep all comments civil and on the topic of Hope Summers as a Support. Thank you!

If you wish to talk about the acquisition rate of Supports, please discuss here: Support availability
If you wish to discuss whether you think a Supports' abilities are significant or not, then please create a new thread.

Thank you!

Dragon_Nexus

tiomono said:

@spudgutter I'm not sure on the 5* variant of the supports. They can still be useful even if not at the 5* level.

@cyineedsn well that stinks.

My point is that they are not impossible to get. They definitely need tweaking to make it easier, but many people have such a deep seated hatred for the supports that regardless of what the devs do they get criticized for it and I find that tiring.

Yes but what have they done though?

The only thing the devs have done to improve the supports so far is up the Red ISO rewards and change the vault size. That's it. The beginner tokens are still as rare as a 4* in a PvE vault. They're not in any kind of progress reward. The unique ones for 4* and 5*s you might really want to use are not in those beginner tokens should you even manage to get one.

That's why we're critical. I've changed my mind on supports, I'd like to start giving them an honest shout. But until I can actually get them, or at least the ones worth a damn, I'm going to keep critiquing. If something's bad, I'm not gonna say "Good job!", am I? I'm going to point out what's wrong and how it could be fixed. Otherwise how else are the devs meant to understand the issues we have?

sinnerjfl

At the very least, please make those vaults open for more than the current 48h, its a bit silly because you can barely take advantage ot the single pull daily deal and you're trying to force people to go for the 10x or 40x packs.

That said, I got super lucky with this one, 1st pull in the vault gave me an advanced token and that token gave me a Level 3 Hope Summers...   I was rather stunned from that result :O