Support availability

Smart80
Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
in MPQ Supports Discussion
There are still only 18 supports in the standard store, eventhough already 37 (discarding Infinity Stones for being unattainable) different supports have been released. I could understand a little delay to put some extra emphasis on release stores, but some of those not in it now, have been around for quite a while now.

Its not like the tokens are easy to come by anyway, but having no possibilty at all, to get over half of the supports seems a bit odd.
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  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Infinity War, Thanos goons the last that were added? Wakanda and later missing it seems.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Although im also concerned about the lack of availability of tokens, my main concern is about those supports we cant earn, even if lucky enough to get those tokens..
  • zeroswitch
    zeroswitch Posts: 46 Just Dropped In
    Why not add 1-3 support tokens to the DDQ vaults?  Maybe 2 basic and 1 medium (can't recall the name). Replace  3 of the health packs maybe.   In a 300 item vault, you'd have just a 1% chance of getting a support (or if you're hoarding, you get them every 6 months).   Not that outrageous, especially if only the first 18 supports are available from tokens.
  • JHawkInc
    JHawkInc Posts: 2,605 Chairperson of the Boards
    It should be more than that, but I agree.

    DDQ needs some. There should be a way to guarantee tokens on a regular basis (progression, so anyone can earn them, not placement). And there should be ways to acquire all token types. Even if you can get MORE tokens by buying bundles or placing well, there should still be other ways to acquire them. Like, a player only going for progression and placing abysmally every event can still earn CP and eventually acquire 5* covers. The same should be possible for Supports. They made Supports work with 3* and better characters, and most of them have bonuses for equipping to a specific character (most are 4*s or 5*s, but some work with any version that lets them work with 3*s as well). They advertise as a utility once you get beyond the foundation (1* and 2* tier) of the game.

    But their availability is such that the only people that can afford to acquire them regularly is the top-end 5* players who have excess HP and CP and need something to spend it on. Like they want it to be so hard to acquire that it's effectively like 6* characters as an end-game goal. And the disconnect is making people frustrated.

    SCL9/5* players should be earning Beginner tokens regularly and Advanced tokens occasionally, with the ability to put some effort into earning Master tokens. And 3* players should at least be able to get Beginner tokens some.

    They made a misstep when they increased the amount of Red ISO we earn. If they had given us the ability to earn tokens more often, we would have started earning more Red ISO from duplicates, and it could have killed two birds with one stone. Instead, they listened to one problem (not enough Red ISO to even enjoy the Supports we've been able to get) and tried to fix it without touching the other problem.

    The end result is that tokens are still impossible to acquire, and they refuse to update the tokens for the new Supports that have been added since launch, and it feels like we've been beta testing this feature for SEVEN TINYKITTY MONTHS now. And then they have the audacity to tell us that they're listening. Which has been a lie ever since the Black Panther supports came out, because we had been asking when the Black Order would join tokens and they started added more supports without updating the tokens, and have flat ignored the question ever since. It only takes a few times of saying "I'm listening" while acting deaf before people stop believing you.

    Supports are a lot of fun to tinker with and add benefits to characters, and it's fun to gain new little improvements to characters you're already familiar with playing (if they ever get beyond doing release supports and the occasional group, going back and adding Supports to older 4*s and 5*s would be much appreciated). But they're hoarding Support Tokens in a way that would impress Scrooge and telling us they're listening while doing anything but proving that (actions speak louder than words, devs), and it's downright maddening.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    I know this sounds very contradictory, but I think the biggest problem with supports, is that they are way too easy to complete. Just 1 lucky pull and its done. Sure, you need the very hard to get token, and some riso, but there nothing to build up like the normal roster. Maybe that is why they are so hesitant to make the others available?
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    zeroswitch said:
    Why not add 1-3 support tokens to the DDQ vaults?  Maybe 2 basic and 1 medium (can't recall the name). Replace  3 of the health packs maybe.   In a 300 item vault, you'd have just a 1% chance of getting a support (or if you're hoarding, you get them every 6 months).   Not that outrageous, especially if only the first 18 supports are available from tokens.
    That really won't matter because most people already have some version of every support in the basic support store.  I have to hoard tokens now because I have all those basic supports at the 2* or better level
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade said:
    zeroswitch said:
    Why not add 1-3 support tokens to the DDQ vaults?  Maybe 2 basic and 1 medium (can't recall the name). Replace  3 of the health packs maybe.   In a 300 item vault, you'd have just a 1% chance of getting a support (or if you're hoarding, you get them every 6 months).   Not that outrageous, especially if only the first 18 supports are available from tokens.
    That really won't matter because most people already have some version of every support in the basic support store.  I have to hoard tokens now because I have all those basic supports at the 2* or better level
    Well if they're going to be that rare they could include supports not in the basic store.
  • SymmeTrey
    SymmeTrey Posts: 170 Tile Toppler
    When they dramatically increased the flow of RISO, I felt certain that something new was coming.

    To me, the simple solution is to allow players to buy Support Tokens with RISO. The costs could be high like:
    100k-250k Master Token
    50k-100k Advanced Token
    10k-25k Basic Token

    It would create a push/pull between leveling supports and obtaining them. This approach would prevent players from just buying a bunch of HP (or blowing a HP hoard) and buying lots of Support Tokens or whatever the devs are worried about there.

    But, as it is... I now just have a mountain of RISO accumulating and nothing I want to spend it on. The 18X increase in RISO flow with no corresponding increase in Support flow still just baffles me. By the time Supports become more available, we are all going to be RISO multimillionaires.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    @Brigby, will newer (becoming very relative term) supports ever enter the rotation so we can at least have the chance to earn them?
  • Brigby
    Brigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
    Smart80 said:
    Brigby, will newer (becoming very relative term) supports ever enter the rotation so we can at least have the chance to earn them?
    Yup! The team has been working out details for that, but I'm afraid I don't have exact details available to share just yet. Soon™
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,816 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2018
    6 weeks ago, the Hope Summers Support was released.  Today, the Tinkerer Support was released. 

    It seems like nothing was done as far as availability, token updates, or other access, despite the long break.

    Now we have 18 Supports in the Basic tokens in PVE vaults (and Advancd tokens, only typically available as PVP season rewards).  21 Supports only available in the special 48 hour HfH bundles and Support vaults.

    It’s been 6 months since the Black Order was added to Support tokens. 

    Man, this is getting kind of ridiculous.
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    Since we cannot get an answer to the direction of the support tokens in the Tinker thread guess we will have to ask here.  As other have said why is this not updated?  This would be like introducing new characters and not updating the tokens ever.   That isn’t accepted so why is this?   
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rockett said:
    Since we cannot get an answer to the direction of the support tokens in the Tinker thread guess we will have to ask here.  As other have said why is this not updated?  This would be like introducing new characters and not updating the tokens ever.   That isn’t accepted so why is this?   
    It's even worse,  really,  at least with new characters you can pull and reset X and friends vault with 100% chance of obtaining that character. You could empty a new support vault 1000 times and still not acquire that new support
  • IYeaheahI
    IYeaheahI Posts: 53 Match Maker
    In all honesty, they did increase the riso acquisition rate. For me this realy was an impulse to the use of my supports.

    that having said, I also horde support tokens in the hope they'll become more usefull some day.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2018
    Brigby said:
    Smart80 said:
    Brigby, will newer (becoming very relative term) supports ever enter the rotation so we can at least have the chance to earn them?
    Yup! The team has been working out details for that, but I'm afraid I don't have exact details available to share just yet. Soon™
    That is only part of the availability problem though. Just earning support tokens of any kind feels way too rare. 

    It feels like most rpg's have a few classes of characters then tons of varied gear to make interesting builds so every chatacter is not cookie cutter. 

    In this game we have tons of characters so to me it almost feels like you should have at least 3 viable support options for each character to flesh them out. Either a perk that makes a strength of that character better or one that helps lessen a downside to the character.

    Take carnage as an example.

    Have a perk in game that increases the strength of friendly attack tiles. Then on a different support have a perk that reduces the strength of enemy attack tiles. Another support could reduce friendly damage to your teammates. Then players have choices to make on how they want to play carnage. And many perks will overlap to benefit more than one character. So I am not saying you need 300 supports for 100 characters.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    fmftint said:
    The rockett said:
    Since we cannot get an answer to the direction of the support tokens in the Tinker thread guess we will have to ask here.  As other have said why is this not updated?  This would be like introducing new characters and not updating the tokens ever.   That isn’t accepted so why is this?   
    It's even worse,  really,  at least with new characters you can pull and reset X and friends vault with 100% chance of obtaining that character. You could empty a new support vault 1000 times and still not acquire that new support
    And with toons you also have bonus hero to cover them... 

    It almost feels we already should discuss dilution before they are even really offered to the general population...
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Possible reasons why Support are rare

    Premise 1    : Getting one Rank 1 to Rank 5 support is like getting a 1* to 5* character at 13 covers... in one draw.

    You open whatever support token you got, level it, and you are done for that Rank.

    You draw one comic cover of any characters, level it, and you still need to find another 12 covers to max level them (pre-champed).

    Simply put, it's too easy to complete a Rank 1 to Rank 5 support, and the bonus that they gave are PvE changing, even at Rank 4. 

    1. While it's true that you can get 1 guaranteed cover of new 4* characters in their 80-items vaults, how many HP do you need to use to get them to 13 covers? Even if we were to slash the number of covers to 6, it's likely to be (2800+9800) * 6 = 75,600 HP. And I'm being quite generous with this amount of HP needed... It is definitely more than 75,600 HP.

    2. Adding Bonus Hero to Support is like getting your favourited characters at 13-covers in one Bonus Hero. I don't see this happening, unless they make changes to the structure of Support, like their odds or way of levelling.


    Premise 2.  Majority of the odds of Supports are many times better than that of Characters

    If we were to do a conversion:

    1. Standard Token = Beginner Support Token

    a) Odds of getting 2* vs getting rank 2 support is 1:8 vs 1:3

    b) Odds of getting 3* vs getting rank 3 support is 1:43 vs 1:20

    2. Heroic Token = Advanced Support Token

    a) Odds of getting 3* vs getting rank 3 support is 1:5 vs 1:3

    b) Odds of getting 4* vs getting rank 4 support is 1:16 vs 1:12

    3. Classic + Latest Legends = Master Support Token

    a) Odds of getting 5* vs getting rank 5 support is 1:7 vs 1:10/27

    The odds for Master Support Token is much rarer, probably due to Premise 1 and Premise 4.

    Premise 3: sellback price for Supports are many times better

    Sellback prices for 1* to 5* covers vs Rank 1 to Rank 5 dupe are:

    Iso-8: 100, 250, 500, 1000, 2000 vs

    Red Iso-8: 1400, 7000, 12000, 16000, 24000

    Premise 4: Support are gamebreaking or PvE changing

    They increase the speed of clearing and make some nodes easier. 

    Increasing availability
    1. One way I see both points (getting specific support using vault clearing and support BH) happening is that they change the way support level up.

    That is to say, instead of 1 pull to hit the max level of that Rank, we have to pull 250 basic tokens * RNG to get that specific support to level 250. Fewer tokens are needed for Advanced and Master token.

    You will get a big outflow of Support tokens but is that what you really want?

    2. New currency that can be earned to buy support.

    3. Using CP to buy Support token.
    Many in here hate using CP to buy support bundle or to use it for other purposes, other than for LT, and that's the point. MPQ has always been about making difficult choices since the start of the game. 

    Who should I roster (due to lack of roster slot)? Who should I sell? Who should I spend my ISO-8 on? Should I level up my 5*? Should I champ my first 4*? Who should I BH next? Should I sell this character to roster that character? 


  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    Just did a count. 

    18 support in tokens. 
    20 outside of tokens, not including Infinity Stones.  

    Yep. Not a problem at all. 

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