Excessive difficulty to reach 5*

bbigler

Hoarding vs. Spending? I'm going through the new player experience now and I expect to reach this decision point in 4 weeks.  What's the best way to enter the 4* and 5* tiers? What advice would you give a new player? I would like to answer this question once and for all through my own experience, but I think there are many factors to determine what path is best. 

I think everyone would prefer not to hoard but buy Classics instead, if that was a good option to champ all 5*s.  But the math shows that it would take several years to do it that way.  Hoarding for Latest is faster but you miss out on the majority of the tier. I would like to prove that spending (instead of hoarding) is a good way to cover 5*s, but I'm not sure if I will go that route.

But for the record, it is definitely possible to get 5* champs within the first year by hoarding (and not whaling).  The problem with that is the lack of other 4* and 5* champs to play with afterwards. But you could justify it by saying that you'll catch up later. I see so many different ways to do this and I don't know which path is best. 

barrok

Qubort said:

I think 5 stars are quite easy to obtain. They give out enough CP and LTs to champ 5s as they're released.

They've also increased the number of feeders making it easier still. The Saved Cover feature is a huge boost. You never have a wasted pull and ISO shortage is a non factor.

The only way they could make it easier is if they just handed them out and would defeat all the fun of playing. 

Your easy and my easy are completely different. It was mentioned above that the likely hood of getting a champed 5* in your first year is very unlikely. I had a guy in my guild who got his first champed 5* in day 1005. You need a really patient user base that will support that. Most of these f2p games can't expect that a user is fine waiting 3 years to be in the 'end game.'

I think it should be possible to focus which hero's you get, either through a custom vault or through some other method. If I want to champ 5* Okoye, i should be able to start on a path to get there that doesn't involve just RNG. I realize you can set bonus heros and what not, but that still requires a ton of RNG. I want to know that each day I am making progress towards this goal. Maybe I give up a bunch of roster progress to focus, but I can at least do that.

tiomono

crackninja said:

tiomono said:

crackninja said: no

tiomono said:

They have added many 4*s champion rewards to help with gaining 5*s. It is slow going but they have continually made things easier and more accessible. 

Personally I hate the hoard and spend it all on latests tactic. I hate locking characters away with no way to earn them. So for me to spend all my resources to get a shot at the 3 newest 5*'s while locking all the rest into bonus hero odds is no good. That is why I pull classics. It is slower to get into the 5 star tier because of dilution but I am progressing toward it steadily. When I get to the stage of wanting to spend iso on my 5*s to fully make the leap I will have a broader selection not just the latest 3. I already have 1 champed, daredevil. He is a great first 5* good damage and amazing sustain. I have 3 more at 12 covers and 2 at 11 covers. I did have gambit before his nerf. I was seeing if I could fully cover a 5 in latests pulling solely latests. With the old cs cover swap I could. But now that any 6th or more cover i get in a single color for any character can be saved and not wasted i feel classics is the right choice for me.

The 5* tier is not impossible to get into. And hoarding yo spend it all on latests is not the only way to progress into the tier.

There is more than one way to do it, but I just cannot recommend this strategy to anyone that doesn't already have good coverage in their classics, and even with that, you are facing an uphill RNG battle as far as competing characters you actually want.  It's true that in the very long run you'll have more diversity, but it comes at quite a cost. 

And the cost of opening just latests means you never get a chance at pulling 23 characters and growing. That is way too steep a cost in my personal opinion. The new release stores are too infrequent to offset this and you never have a guarantee that a classic 5* that you want will turn up in one of these stores. 

For me classics with the 5* feeders is giving me good progress. I feel that the 4* tier is the meat of the game and am not feeling rushed to get into the 5* tier. If clearance level 10 opened up and was pretty much mandatory to have 5*s champed due to enemy levels I think I would still be happy in scl 9 getting the rewards I currently am and progressing my way up to scl 10 eventually.


Others feel differently and that's fine. I was just letting the OP know that there is not only one way to advance.

Sure, by your own admission you aren't trying to get into the 5* tier. We agree that the freedom to choose is there and that is great.
In 3 years of pulling classics you will likely have more champed 5*'s than by pulling latests.  In 1 year, not so much. So to me, the real hoarding is banking on classics.

I am trying to get to 5* tier. I have had gambit and daredevil both champed. I sold gambit when he got changed. But I am definitely trying to get into 5* land. So I am taking the "slow" road and using my cp on classics. In the long run I will have a broader selection than just 3 characters then have to hoard for months again to try for another 3.

I cannot personally deal with the thought of not pulling any covers at all for 23 characters and growing. I open the latests I get through other rewards as I get them. All of my cp goes to classics right now. That works for me, it may not work for someone else. I'm not saying do not hoard. I am saying I will not hoard. There is more than one way to progress.

crackninja

I am trying to get to 5* tier. I have had gambit and daredevil both champed. I sold gambit when he got changed. But I am definitely trying to get into 5* land. So I am taking the "slow" road and using my cp on classics. In the long run I will have a broader selection than just 3 characters then have to hoard for months again to try for another 3. 

I cannot personally deal with the thought of not pulling any covers at all for 23 characters and growing. I open the latests I get through other rewards as I get them. All of my cp goes to classics right now. That works for me, it may not work for someone else. I'm not saying do not hoard. I am saying I will not hoard. There is more than one way to progress.

Best of luck on your journey!  I truly hope the game evolves in a way that values the diversity you are working towards.

JackTenrec

My personal experience is that without spending or hoarding, at day 1400+ I've managed to get almost everything champed at or below the 4* tier (last formerly vaulted that's still waiting on a cover to hit 13 is Kingpin, still need covers for most characters newer than Kraven).  I also have at least 3 covers for every 5* (including Loki), but only 1 character at 13 (CW Cap).  

But I'm also a typically T50 PvE player who only dabbles in PvP when I need some extra ISO (and those days are much fewer due to saved covers), so I'm leaving quite a few 4* covers/CP on the table in terms of my pull rate.

So time does overcome dilution to some extent, but that's not a wait most players are willing to stomach.

0_efx_0

When you Champ at least half or more of 4* Land, that is when you will see a transition into 5* land.

Phumade

0_efx_0 said:

When you Champ at least half or more of 4* Land, that is when you will see a transition into 5* land.

This was my experience as well.  Once I have around 1/2 the 4* champed,  I had enough roster power to be able to compete for placements in the lower scl like 6 and 7.

If I were starting from scratch.   I would probably
1.  Hoard LTs, buy classics til I had 1/2 the 4* champed and at least 8 4* around 300.
2. Once I have over 1/2 the 4* champed and 3 4* around 300.  my roster is wide enough that the buff list should allow me to have a playable experience.  Thats when I would start hoarding both LTS and cps until I had enough pulls (at least 1000) to goto 5* land.

justsing

barrok said:

I know this game is a 'marathon', but even if you progress through the correct avenues (champ 3*'s, champ 4*'s) there is still no guarantee that you will be 5* land within the first year of playing. 

Why should there be a guarantee of reaching 5* land within the first year of playing?? That kind of expectation seems really unrealistic given the setup of this game. Also, reaching the 5* tier so quickly just means the game is going to grow stale for you that much quicker. 

I still maintain that you can max-cover 5*s without having to hoard forever. I switched over to pulling Latest only when I had about half of my 4*s champed. My first max-covered 5* was Gambit on Day 497. I am now Day 720 with 7 max-covered 5*s (none champed because I'm still enjoying 4* land). I would spend my LTs and CP on Latest until I finished a 5* and then briefly hoard until that 5* left Latest. 

I think the bigger issue right now is 4* dilution because the reason I was able to start my 4-5* transition so quickly was because I got lucky with vaulting and the improved odds on Latest 4*s. Now you either have to pull Classics for much longer until you get enough 4*s champs or you hoard to make the straight jump to 5* land (which means you mostly miss out on the fun and variety in 4* land). Personally, I would go with the former, but I can't begrudge anyone for choosing the latter.

barrok

justsing said:

barrok said:

I know this game is a 'marathon', but even if you progress through the correct avenues (champ 3*'s, champ 4*'s) there is still no guarantee that you will be 5* land within the first year of playing. 

Why should there be a guarantee of reaching 5* land within the first year of playing?? That kind of expectation seems really unrealistic given the setup of this game. Also, reaching the 5* tier so quickly just means the game is going to grow stale for you that much quicker. 

I still maintain that you can max-cover 5*s without having to hoard forever. I switched over to pulling Latest only when I had about half of my 4*s champed. My first max-covered 5* was Gambit on Day 497. 

Well, I realize it's hard to tell people who have invested as much time as you have that the game needs to progress quicker. Inherently you feel you have spent lots of time, energy, potentially money, to get where you are and it wouldn't be fair to do it quicker. But from my experience, most people are not interested in waiting 1 to 3 years before they can even taste the end game. 

With that said, maybe you are right that it's "unrealistic given the setup of this game." But that is why I think they need to look at the setup of the game. They should tweak it to get progress faster. Much like an MMO will lower level requirements or XP requirements over time, they should look at getting people into the end game a little quicker. I can tell you I am much more likely to quit knowing that I have another year ahead of me before I can feel even remotely comfortable in 5* land, than I would if I could actually get into 5* land within a year.  

justsing

barrok said:

justsing said:

barrok said:

I know this game is a 'marathon', but even if you progress through the correct avenues (champ 3*'s, champ 4*'s) there is still no guarantee that you will be 5* land within the first year of playing. 

Why should there be a guarantee of reaching 5* land within the first year of playing?? That kind of expectation seems really unrealistic given the setup of this game. Also, reaching the 5* tier so quickly just means the game is going to grow stale for you that much quicker. 

I still maintain that you can max-cover 5*s without having to hoard forever. I switched over to pulling Latest only when I had about half of my 4*s champed. My first max-covered 5* was Gambit on Day 497. 

Well, I realize it's hard to tell people who have invested as much time as you have that the game needs to progress quicker. Inherently you feel you have spent lots of time, energy, potentially money, to get where you are and it wouldn't be fair to do it quicker. But from my experience, most people are not interested in waiting 1 to 3 years before they can even taste the end game. 

With that said, maybe you are right that it's "unrealistic given the setup of this game." But that is why I think they need to look at the setup of the game. They should tweak it to get progress faster. Much like an MMO will lower level requirements or XP requirements over time, they should look at getting people into the end game a little quicker. I can tell you I am much more likely to quit knowing that I have another year ahead of me before I can feel even remotely comfortable in 5* land, than I would if I could actually get into 5* land within a year.  

I don’t necessarily care if people get to 5* land quicker. It’s not about fairness. My point is... why the rush to get there? I don’t use the word “endgame” because I don’t feel like this game really has one. I mean, it’s a match-3 game where you try to collect all the heroes. I just don’t understand why you’re hinging your continued enjoyment of the game on reaching the 5* tier within a year.

barrok

If the 5* tier is better than the 4* tier, and the 4* tier is better than the 3* tier, etc etc, then why would you not want to get there? Some people enjoy collecting all the heroes. Others enjoy competition. Others want the latest and greatest. Back when the 5*'s first rolled out, some people spent crazy amounts of money to get LT tokens to try and get maxed 5*'s. Why the rush? Maybe that is because some people enjoy playing with the strongest characters. Gating them behind a year+ sludge isn't all that appealing to some. Neither way of playing the game is necessarily the better way, but most f2p games allow for ways to move past 'tiers' a little quicker (and sometimes a lot quicker) than this game. 

DFiPL

MissoesRicRose said:

I do not know for the other players, but at least here, I have realized at times that it is extremely difficult, or almost impossible, to achieve a 5* character. I already have almost all 4* in champion.

I believe that something has to be done about this. Improve the odds, or change the system to facilitate the collection of a 5*

I'm almost certainly repeating what others have said, and I'm definitely repeating what I've said in other threads, but if you're:

a) playing to progression in SCL7+;
b) playing to at least 575 points/16 wins in PVP events;

c) making use of champion rewards - particularly from the 3* and 4* tiers;

and d) pulling from Latest Legendary tokens

The issue won't be fully covering a 5*. It'll be which 5* gets covered. If you're hoarding, the answer is "all of the ones available when you hit 300 pulls." If you pull 'em as you get 'em, as I do, you might miss the odd duck, but if you're reliably hitting a) through d) above, you should cover most of the 5* at any given time.

For perspective, the 5* released since June 1, 2017 (the bolded are characters I've fully covered or championed, pulling ad hoc):

Doctor Octopus

Spider-Man

Daredevil

Gambit (hit 12 covers before he rotated out; sold him and later re-rostered a single cover)

Thor

Archangel (chose to stop pulling until he left Latest once he hit 4/2/4, but probably could have covered him)

Ghost Rider

Jessica Jones

Captain America

Okoye
Wasp (4/5/2 currently)

Loki

I play to progression in SCL8 (SCL9, if Baby Groot is boosted or the 5e is one of my champions); I play to 40 wins in most PVP events; I have a steady stream of champion rewards (I've recently reduced the number of non-champion 4* on my roster to 5, but I had far fewer than that in July of 2017 when I championed 5pidey); and I pull almost exclusively from Latest, with only the occasional Classic pull when I'm bored.

And the result has been, since June of last year, seven Latest 5* championed, one covered but not championed, and 2-3 others who could have been/might be covered.

If you're pulling from Classics, completing a 5* will almost certainly never happen for you. But if you hoard your CP or pull ad hoc from Latest, as long as you're doing the things I described above, you'll complete a 5*. It just might not be the one you really really want, depending on timing and RNG.

DFiPL

crackninja said:

tiomono said:

crackninja said: no

tiomono said:

They have added many 4*s champion rewards to help with gaining 5*s. It is slow going but they have continually made things easier and more accessible. 

Personally I hate the hoard and spend it all on latests tactic. I hate locking characters away with no way to earn them. So for me to spend all my resources to get a shot at the 3 newest 5*'s while locking all the rest into bonus hero odds is no good. That is why I pull classics. It is slower to get into the 5 star tier because of dilution but I am progressing toward it steadily. When I get to the stage of wanting to spend iso on my 5*s to fully make the leap I will have a broader selection not just the latest 3. I already have 1 champed, daredevil. He is a great first 5* good damage and amazing sustain. I have 3 more at 12 covers and 2 at 11 covers. I did have gambit before his nerf. I was seeing if I could fully cover a 5 in latests pulling solely latests. With the old cs cover swap I could. But now that any 6th or more cover i get in a single color for any character can be saved and not wasted i feel classics is the right choice for me.

The 5* tier is not impossible to get into. And hoarding yo spend it all on latests is not the only way to progress into the tier.

There is more than one way to do it, but I just cannot recommend this strategy to anyone that doesn't already have good coverage in their classics, and even with that, you are facing an uphill RNG battle as far as competing characters you actually want.  It's true that in the very long run you'll have more diversity, but it comes at quite a cost. 

And the cost of opening just latests means you never get a chance at pulling 23 characters and growing. That is way too steep a cost in my personal opinion. The new release stores are too infrequent to offset this and you never have a guarantee that a classic 5* that you want will turn up in one of these stores. 

For me classics with the 5* feeders is giving me good progress. I feel that the 4* tier is the meat of the game and am not feeling rushed to get into the 5* tier. If clearance level 10 opened up and was pretty much mandatory to have 5*s champed due to enemy levels I think I would still be happy in scl 9 getting the rewards I currently am and progressing my way up to scl 10 eventually.


Others feel differently and that's fine. I was just letting the OP know that there is not only one way to advance.

Sure, by your own admission you aren't trying to get into the 5* tier. We agree that the freedom to choose is there and that is great.
In 3 years of pulling classics you will likely have more champed 5*'s than by pulling latests.  In 1 year, not so much. So to me, the real hoarding is banking on classics.

There are, currently, 18 5* in classics. There are three in Latest. I've championed seven Latest in the last just-over-a-year. If I continue to pull Latest, with the same success rate I've had, in 3 years' total time I'd be at around 21 5* champions - and the number of non-champion 5* opportunities for me in Classics would have remained static, while the quantity of 5* in the tokens grows steadily more diluted.

I'm not sure three years of pulling classics instead would result in more than 21 5* champions.

crackninja

DFiPL said:

There are, currently, 18 5* in classics. There are three in Latest. I've championed seven Latest in the last just-over-a-year. If I continue to pull Latest, with the same success rate I've had, in 3 years' total time I'd be at around 21 5* champions - and the number of non-champion 5* opportunities for me in Classics would have remained static, while the quantity of 5* in the tokens grows steadily more diluted.

I'm not sure three years of pulling classics instead would result in more than 21 5* champions.

24 in classics by my count, so actually more dismal.  You're right, I was possibly too generous in saying classics "win" after 3 years (in quantity, not quality), I was throwing a bone to the argument that pulling classics was an option.  I recently pondered whether I would even pull classics with a 25% 5* rate, and I came to the conclusion that I would not.

Straycat

barrok said:

But from my experience, most people are not interested in waiting 1 to 3 years before they can even taste the end game. 

With that said, maybe you are right that it's "unrealistic given the setup of this game." But that is why I think they need to look at the setup of the game. They should tweak it to get progress faster. Much like an MMO will lower level requirements or XP requirements over time, they should look at getting people into the end game a little quicker. I can tell you I am much more likely to quit knowing that I have another year ahead of me before I can feel even remotely comfortable in 5* land, than I would if I could actually get into 5* land within a year.  

When an MMO gets a new expansion they will usually have a free level up to the minimum level to experience the new content. MPQ kinda had that with vaulting, but even now that we are back in dilution the resource flow makes the game much more accessible. And I would say feeders and cover saving is them tweaking it to make progress faster.

I think it is a little unreasonable to complain that it takes 3 years to enter 5* land when 5*s only existed for 3 years. So for most vets it did take that long, but for newer players it won't.

Personally I switched to classics because opening an LT and getting a 4* felt bad. Getting a 4* feels fine when its from classics.

smkspy

I made it into 5 star land without hoarding. 9 currently champed.

But I started in 2015 shortly before ant man premiered. Which was vastly important. I benefitted from the low character count. I benefitted from vaulting. I benefitted from post-vaulting. I'm even benefitting from massive 4 star dilution (now have excess iso to go towards highly covered 5s that I've kept at 255 for years).

My strategy was focusing on completing each tier before moving onto the next.

I strictly pulled classics until I had 95% of the 4 tier completed.

I wanted to have zero waste in each lower tier while trying to advance into the next and that really worked out for me.

MissoesRicRose

It was always hard enough to get a 5 *. At this point I even agree, they are the strongest characters in the game. However, there are now many 4 * within probability. Then it got even harder to get a 5 *.

tiomono

MissoesRicRose said:

It was always hard enough to get a 5 *. At this point I even agree, they are the strongest characters in the game. However, there are now many 4 * within probability. Then it got even harder to get a 5 *.

How many 4*s there are has no impact on whether or not you get a 5*. More 4's just mean it takes longer to get a 4 fully covered. And more 5's slows down how fast you can get a 5* fully covered from classic tokens. 

MissoesRicRose

tiomono said:

MissoesRicRose said:

It was always hard enough to get a 5 *. At this point I even agree, they are the strongest characters in the game. However, there are now many 4 * within probability. Then it got even harder to get a 5 *.

How many 4*s there are has no impact on whether or not you get a 5*. More 4's just mean it takes longer to get a 4 fully covered. And more 5's slows down how fast you can get a 5* fully covered from classic tokens. 

I did not know that. So I'm very unlucky. Because in my case, both "classic" and "latest" only comes 4 * for me.

Loosie

The only thing I've been hoarding are the DDQ tokens.

CPs and LTs I spend right away. For a bit it meant not being to roster some, but I've gotten just about all of them back at some point. I'm only missing 4 4* right now and have 2 champed, with a handful at 10+ covers. My 3* champs are chugging along well and I think I'm on my 4th or 5th farm of my 2* (after not farming them at all until seeing it mentioned on here 5-6 months ago) I paid a little bit of money early one for HP to get some roster spots (like within the first few months of playing) and that's it. I'm on day 1217 and that's after taking a good long break (at least 8 months).

I played this last season of PVP, but I usually don't. For the PVE events I don't care about placement because it seems you pretty much have to play constantly to get into the 4* covers rewards, but I do try to at least complete the progression rewards. I find I'm pulling from classic legends a couple of times a week easily. Between DDQ and the PVE events, of course that goes up slightly when I have the required 5*. Was so happy to see that my newly arrived Okoye was boosted for the Hulk event.

I currently have 8 5* characters with only 3 having multiple covers (an 0/2/1 Hawkeye, 1/2/0 SpiderMan Back in Black and a 1/0/1 JJ)