Azor's Gateway Node needs to finally be nerfed

Mburn7

babar3355 said:

I think they should bring back the infinite damage floodwaters bug.  That's the perfect solution to 5.2

That would be a hilarious battle.  Who gets the 999 damage bomb off first.  

Elektrophorus

I’ve never lost 5.2 either, but that’s because I have a copy of Lich’s Mastery.

Even without it, though I also managed to get <10 rounds twice this time around by playing Ob Nixilis with almost all draw spells. If you can get the ultimate out, the enemy will draw itself to death.

Mburn7

Elektrophorus said:

I’ve never lost 5.2 either, but that’s because I have a copy of Lich’s Mastery.

Even without it, though I also managed to get <10 rounds twice this time around by playing Ob Nixilis with almost all draw spells. If you can get the ultimate out, the enemy will draw itself to death.

My problem with that strategy is it is entirely luck based.  There is a very good chance you cannot draw and play Litch's Mastery before you get nuked (I've seen it happen turn 4 before, and almost never later than turn 12), and an unfavorable board means you may not get Ob's ult out in time before you run out of time.

This isn't an issue with you in particular, though.  Any deck's chances of winning that node are purely based on luck of the draw and board.  That's why we want a change.  Its not the difficulty.  Its the luck.

Gun Bunny

Elektrophorus said:

I’ve never lost 5.2 either, but that’s because I have a copy of Lich’s Mastery.

Even without it, though I also managed to get <10 rounds twice this time around by playing Ob Nixilis with almost all draw spells. If you can get the ultimate out, the enemy will draw itself to death.

Also, given the insane amount of loyalty gems it produces, getting anything played out of your hand is difficult at best, especially with a planeswalker with such a low mana curve.

jace_b

I used Chandra1 direct damage deck with support distruction. So Greg can stay sitting on his creature removels and has a ful hand an can do nothing

Thuran

I'm surprised to hear so much complaining about it, I can't remember ever losing to this fight.

The 10 turns is a huge pain, and only a slightly more fun objective than the dumb "x or less life" tiny kitty, but keeping them off blasting you is fairly easy with the removal available, and three options for shutting down their ability alltogether

FindingHeart8

Thuran said:

I'm surprised to hear so much complaining about it, I can't remember ever losing to this fight.

The 10 turns is a huge pain, and only a slightly more fun objective than the dumb "x or less life" tiny kitty, but keeping them off blasting you is fairly easy with the removal available, and three options for shutting down their ability alltogether

This is an overall weird position for me, as I (rarely) have ever taken the pro-nerf side to anything mtgpq-related.  My general overall rule is to only take this position if a card (or playstyle) is abuse-able beyond to a point that is comprehensively excessive.

In trying different strategies to manage it, I've experimented running a deck that was ~50% support removal.  The AI was able to replace every support I destroyed during its next turn, while adding a few extra to the board at the same time.

3 cards is still an outlier in the overall sense of game strategy.  Yeah most of us have the Eternal Sun (my only lock-down answer to the 999 ability), you're talking about a single card in your deck being the only answer to beating the AI.  I've been hit by the 999 ability as early as turn 4 and semi-frequently on turn 5, before I could draw Eternal Sun.

tl dr: Even with the few cards that can handle Azor's Gateway; matches based on pure desperate luck instead of strategic planning do not make for enjoyable gameplay.

Kinesia

Before eternal sun I beat it 2 out of 3 times with support destruction in about 50 turns each time, even with my loss that was about turn 30 when he got lucky.

But I agree it's luck based... I still can't guarantee safety.

[Deleted User]

FindingHeart8 said:

Thuran said:

I'm surprised to hear so much complaining about it, I can't remember ever losing to this fight.

The 10 turns is a huge pain, and only a slightly more fun objective than the dumb "x or less life" tiny kitty, but keeping them off blasting you is fairly easy with the removal available, and three options for shutting down their ability alltogether

This is an overall weird position for me, as I (rarely) have ever taken the pro-nerf side to anything mtgpq-related.  My general overall rule is to only take this position if a card (or playstyle) is abuse-able beyond to a point that is comprehensively excessive.

In trying different strategies to manage it, I've experimented running a deck that was ~50% support removal.  The AI was able to replace every support I destroyed during its next turn, while adding a few extra to the board at the same time.

3 cards is still an outlier in the overall sense of game strategy.  Yeah most of us have the Eternal Sun (my only lock-down answer to the 999 ability), you're talking about a single card in your deck being the only answer to beating the AI.  I've been hit by the 999 ability as early as turn 4 and semi-frequently on turn 5, before I could draw Eternal Sun.

tl dr: Even with the few cards that can handle Azor's Gateway; matches based on pure desperate luck instead of strategic planning do not make for enjoyable gameplay.

With regard to your ~50% support destruction deck. Considering the AIs mana gains are +4 across the board; instead of destroying 1 support at a time (since the supports in his deck are cheap for his mana gains). Wait till you can 2 for 1 the support if you can (unless they are treasure map and trove). Also changing your gem matching to destroy treasures will help when necessary. Also knowing exactly what effect your support destruction will have is also important as in will this spell destroy the support cast just now or the 1st one that hit the board, etc. After all city blessing does require some time to build up in most cases and eventually the AI will run out of gas, as the AIs card draw ability is rather lacking. Another consideration would be using vraskas 1st to help spam kill supports. Of course adding in insurance policies like immortal sun/sorceress spyglass/green prevent damage spell are nice. Some card draw and gem conversion is always good. Hexproof creatures to prevent his 3 targetting spells or creatureless to lock his hand in eventually. And now theres alpine moon haphazard, etc etc. 

There are currently a number different options to minimize risk from cards to strategy but yes sometimes its just luck. 

Cant do much for 4th turn 999 blast to face.. at that point during turns 2 and 3, measures should have been taken to extend the face blast countdown as much as possible till you get to an answer; but its not going to get you far. 

Honestly its only when going for all objectives that it becomes high risk as your focus completely changes to a nearly full offensive deck. 

FindingHeart8

jimpark said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Thuran said:

I'm surprised to hear so much complaining about it, I can't remember ever losing to this fight.

The 10 turns is a huge pain, and only a slightly more fun objective than the dumb "x or less life" tiny kitty, but keeping them off blasting you is fairly easy with the removal available, and three options for shutting down their ability alltogether

This is an overall weird position for me, as I (rarely) have ever taken the pro-nerf side to anything mtgpq-related.  My general overall rule is to only take this position if a card (or playstyle) is abuse-able beyond to a point that is comprehensively excessive.

In trying different strategies to manage it, I've experimented running a deck that was ~50% support removal.  The AI was able to replace every support I destroyed during its next turn, while adding a few extra to the board at the same time.

3 cards is still an outlier in the overall sense of game strategy.  Yeah most of us have the Eternal Sun (my only lock-down answer to the 999 ability), you're talking about a single card in your deck being the only answer to beating the AI.  I've been hit by the 999 ability as early as turn 4 and semi-frequently on turn 5, before I could draw Eternal Sun.

tl dr: Even with the few cards that can handle Azor's Gateway; matches based on pure desperate luck instead of strategic planning do not make for enjoyable gameplay.

With regard to your ~50% support destruction deck. Considering the AIs mana gains are +4 across the board; instead of destroying 1 support at a time (since the supports in his deck are cheap for his mana gains). Wait till you can 2 for 1 the support if you can (unless they are treasure map and trove). Also changing your gem matching to destroy treasures will help when necessary. Also knowing exactly what effect your support destruction will have is also important as in will this spell destroy the support cast just now or the 1st one that hit the board, etc. After all city blessing does require some time to build up in most cases and eventually the AI will run out of gas, as the AIs card draw ability is rather lacking. Another consideration would be using vraskas 1st to help spam kill supports. Of course adding in insurance policies like immortal sun/sorceress spyglass/green prevent damage spell are nice. Some card draw and gem conversion is always good. Hexproof creatures to prevent his 3 targetting spells or creatureless to lock his hand in eventually. And now theres alpine moon haphazard, etc etc. 

There are currently a number different options to minimize risk from cards to strategy but yes sometimes its just luck. 

Cant do much for 4th turn 999 blast to face.. at that point during turns 2 and 3, measures should have been taken to extend the face blast countdown as much as possible till you get to an answer; but its not going to get you far. 

Honestly its only when going for all objectives that it becomes high risk as your focus completely changes to a nearly full offensive deck. 

Appreciate the suggestions, most of these strategies I have been trying (though I didn't think about the hold back support-destruction, good idea!).

Usually I get the (I'm fantastically horrible with card names) rare removal spell that exiles your opponent's first creature and doesn't target.  That usually gets my Gaea's Revenge the turn after I play it, though at least I still got a one shot of 16 damage out of it.

I guess a component of my issue is also the cascade issue.  Generally the AI cascades into dumping his entire hand every turn, one one of those supports is the one that flips and draws him cards (also one of the first supports dropped).

My normal encounter with Azor's Gateway goes something like this:

AI turn (beginning turn 2):

1) AI Cascades

2) AI playing his entire hand.  If I have any creatures, guaranteed 1-2 of them are destroyed or bounced.

3) AI drawing 3-5 cards

4) AI gets extra swap

5) AI does steps 1 - 3 again.  Any remaining creatures I have are guaranteed gone, hexproof or not.

6) ~20% chance AI gets a second extra swap, if not end turn. 

Usually at this point the AI has an additional 5-8 supports on the board

babar3355

Sounds like you have just had some really bad luck on that node @FindingHeart8 I have rarely had him explode on me like that.  Although he did on my last encounter and it took me about 25 turns to win.  Those are the games where you are thankful for TiS.

FindingHeart8

babar3355 said:

Sounds like you have just had some really bad luck on that node @FindingHeart8 I have rarely had him explode on me like that.  Although he did on my last encounter and it took me about 25 turns to win.  Those are the games where you are thankful for TiS.

bad luck streak apparently, it was pretty much that way 3 out of the 4 times I faced Azors Gateway last event.

Brakkis

AI Turn 1 (Turn 2)

Kumena's Awakening
Azor's Gateway
Trove of Temptation

- Trove spawns a Treasure

-- AI has 4 supports

AI Turn 2 (Turn 4)

- Cascade hits both activate gems from Gateway

Treasure Map
Arch of Orazca
Treasure Map
Kumena's Awakening

- Treasure Map converts to Treasure Cove, creates 2 Treasures
- Trove spawns a treasure

-- AI has 9 supports

AI Turn 3 (Turn 6)

Treasure Map
Shore Keeper

- AI gains Extra Swap

Eat 999 damage

That was how my first fight against him went this past event. A 3 turn obliteration. I hadn't drawn Immortal Sun. I hadn't drawn any support destruction. None of my matches could hit his 1 shield treasures. I ate dirt.

[Deleted User]

Brakkis said:

AI Turn 1 (Turn 2)

Kumena's Awakening
Azor's Gateway
Trove of Temptation

- Trove spawns a Treasure

-- AI has 4 supports

AI Turn 2 (Turn 4)

- Cascade hits both activate gems from Gateway

Treasure Map
Arch of Orazca
Treasure Map
Kumena's Awakening

- Treasure Map converts to Treasure Cove, creates 2 Treasures
- Trove spawns a treasure

-- AI has 9 supports

AI Turn 3 (Turn 6)

Treasure Map
Shore Keeper

- AI gains Extra Swap

Eat 999 damage

That was how my first fight against him went this past event. A 3 turn obliteration. I hadn't drawn Immortal Sun. I hadn't drawn any support destruction. None of my matches could hit his 1 shield treasures. I ate dirt.

Sorry to hear... thats pretty bad. Hope the rest of your games went smoother against him. 

But i am assuming this was an isolated case? Or was this prevalent?

[Deleted User]

FindingHeart8 said:

Appreciate the suggestions, most of these strategies I have been trying (though I didn't think about the hold back support-destruction, good idea!).

Usually I get the (I'm fantastically horrible with card names) rare removal spell that exiles your opponent's first creature and doesn't target.  That usually gets my Gaea's Revenge the turn after I play it, though at least I still got a one shot of 16 damage out of it.

I guess a component of my issue is also the cascade issue.  Generally the AI cascades into dumping his entire hand every turn, one one of those supports is the one that flips and draws him cards (also one of the first supports dropped).

My normal encounter with Azor's Gateway goes something like this:

AI turn (beginning turn 2):

1) AI Cascades

2) AI playing his entire hand.  If I have any creatures, guaranteed 1-2 of them are destroyed or bounced.

3) AI drawing 3-5 cards

4) AI gets extra swap

5) AI does steps 1 - 3 again.  Any remaining creatures I have are guaranteed gone, hexproof or not.

6) ~20% chance AI gets a second extra swap, if not end turn. 

Usually at this point the AI has an additional 5-8 supports on the board

I see. I see. The removal spell is vonas hunger but it destroys as opposed to exile; thus perhaps dark petition could be used (though i normally dont like the card as its a dead card without a target)?
Of course, darigaaz would be much more efficient. 

Card draw is relatively limited in 5.2, it has kumenas awakening, arch of orazca, and treasure map (flipped side). But that said it is still possible if they dropped their hand the turn before. 

This is not pertaining to the event but in general i noticed higher AI cascades depending on what i matched after one of the updates. It was ridiculous. Since then i had to change my gem matching pattern and it helped a lot. But this is more of a suspicious possibly not true for everyone thing. 

FindingHeart8

jimpark said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Appreciate the suggestions, most of these strategies I have been trying (though I didn't think about the hold back support-destruction, good idea!).

Usually I get the (I'm fantastically horrible with card names) rare removal spell that exiles your opponent's first creature and doesn't target.  That usually gets my Gaea's Revenge the turn after I play it, though at least I still got a one shot of 16 damage out of it.

I guess a component of my issue is also the cascade issue.  Generally the AI cascades into dumping his entire hand every turn, one one of those supports is the one that flips and draws him cards (also one of the first supports dropped).

My normal encounter with Azor's Gateway goes something like this:

AI turn (beginning turn 2):

1) AI Cascades

2) AI playing his entire hand.  If I have any creatures, guaranteed 1-2 of them are destroyed or bounced.

3) AI drawing 3-5 cards

4) AI gets extra swap

5) AI does steps 1 - 3 again.  Any remaining creatures I have are guaranteed gone, hexproof or not.

6) ~20% chance AI gets a second extra swap, if not end turn. 

Usually at this point the AI has an additional 5-8 supports on the board

I see. I see. The removal spell is vonas hunger but it destroys as opposed to exile; thus perhaps dark petition could be used (though i normally dont like the card as its a dead card without a target)?
Of course, darigaaz would be much more efficient. 

Card draw is relatively limited in 5.2, it has kumenas awakening, arch of orazca, and treasure map (flipped side). But that said it is still possible if they dropped their hand the turn before. 

This is not pertaining to the event but in general i noticed higher AI cascades depending on what i matched after one of the updates. It was ridiculous. Since then i had to change my gem matching pattern and it helped a lot. But this is more of a suspicious possibly not true for everyone thing. 

Yeah Darigaaz is the solution to creature removal, unfortunately I don't have him yet.

I have the mythic phoenix though, but it's still bugged and even if it wasn't, the AI had enough removal to hit both the phoenix and its egg.

Laeuftbeidir

FindingHeart8 said:

I have the mythic phoenix though, but it's still bugged and even if it wasn't, the AI had enough removal to hit both the phoenix and its egg.

It isn't, was fixed a month (or longer) ago

FindingHeart8

Laeuftbeidir said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I have the mythic phoenix though, but it's still bugged and even if it wasn't, the AI had enough removal to hit both the phoenix and its egg.

It isn't, was fixed a month (or longer) ago

well that's good to know at least

it still wouldn't last though..

[Deleted User]

FindingHeart8 said:

 

Yeah Darigaaz is the solution to creature removal, unfortunately I don't have him yet.

I have the mythic phoenix though, but it's still bugged and even if it wasn't, the AI had enough removal to hit both the phoenix and its egg.

Sorry you dont have him yet... soon!

 Ohhh ohh what about rite of belzenlok? That way the tokens generated over 2 turns will eat up some removal and then the demon token will either be a big beater or net you a 3 for 1 or just a 2 for 1. And the support is really cheap

FindingHeart8

jimpark said:

FindingHeart8 said:

 

Yeah Darigaaz is the solution to creature removal, unfortunately I don't have him yet.

I have the mythic phoenix though, but it's still bugged and even if it wasn't, the AI had enough removal to hit both the phoenix and its egg.

Sorry you dont have him yet... soon!

 Ohhh ohh what about rite of belzenlok? That way the tokens generated over 2 turns will eat up some removal and then the demon token will either be a big beater or net you a 3 for 1 or just a 2 for 1. And the support is really cheap

oh yeah Rite of Belzenok is a great card.

But against Azor's Gateway I don't usually get more than 5 turns before 999 damage.  Presuming I don't cascade it'll probably take 2 turns to play Rite, by the time I get the demon I'll be dead lol