Core set 2019 future?

2

Comments

  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's just silly that we're going to forever have to deal with the same stale cards like Thopter Spy Network, Gaea's Revenge, and Starfield of Nyx in the meta.

    This would be the same with any set, mind you.

  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    madwren said:
    It's just silly that we're going to forever have to deal with the same stale cards like Thopter Spy Network, Gaea's Revenge, and Starfield of Nyx in the meta.

    This would be the same with any set, mind you.

    While I agree it would be nice to see different OP mythics out in the wild, I can't think of a way to phase out Origins without totally screwing over the game.

    All the tutorials would have to be redone, all the players that started out in the months before the update would be screwed (since their tutorial stuff was all based on Origins), the crafting structure would have to be changed, and the players would go ballistic.  All of this is made worse by the fact that we have been promised repeatedly that Origins isn't going anywhere and have been basing our purchases and crafting decisions around that fact.

    In summary, we're going to have to deal with TSN, Starfield, Gaia, and the rest of Origins for a very long time, no matter what we say or do.
  • Unknown
    edited August 2018
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  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    bken1234 said:
    Mburn7 said:

    In summary, we're going to have to deal with TSN, Starfield, Gaia, and the rest of Origins for a very long time, no matter what we say or do.
    Honestly I think this is wishful thinking. Clearly, some directives about this game come down from WOTC, and I can't see WOTC wanting this spin off game to revolve around Origins long after the paper game has moved on.

    Rewriting the tutorials really isn't as big a job as you make out, and the players will get over rotation, just like they did when Standard was introduced into MTGPQ and paper.

    The key problem to solve, as you point out, is probably new players entering the game just before rotation, but I think there are solutions... making both Origins and the new set legal for a period of time during rotation, or perhaps guaranteeing new players who sign up a minimum amount of time for which their cards will be legal. maybe even just giving them a ton of free crystals.
    And what about players who return to the game and find 100% of their cards unusable. 

    A unique thing about this game is the "they always come back" phenomenon. Players will leave for 3 months, 6 months, 18 months and they seem to find their way back. 

    We have had several of my top 10 teammates come back after 6-18 months out of the game and they are able to get a good jump start because of their Origins collections. 

    My alt is in Platinum and half of the standard cards there are Origins. In short -- it can't just go away, pretty much ever. It can be renamed, or built on -- but those cards can't go away without alienating part of the player base. 

    The "returning player" argument is garbage and semi-invalidated by any number of MMO style games out there that also has the "they always come back" player base. For instance, If I were to return to World of Warcraft right now I'd be stuck running around in gear from 3 expansions ago and super low level comparatively. I was one of the top 50 players in the world when I quit. I wouldn't get any sort of compensation for returning and I wouldn't be immediately capable of jumping in to new content. I have to work for it.

    A returning player here would be on the same level as a new player and that is completely fine. You don't get to compete just because you used to play. You stopped playing. You came back to a different playing field. Time to work for it like anyone else. It's the price to be paid for stopping playing for an extended period of time.

    You made an investment in this game four months ago, or sixth months ago, or a year ago. The investment period has worn off. Time to reinvest.

    Origins being permanent made some sense when WOTC was no longer doing Core Sets. That stance has changed and the game should change to reflect that. I love my Origins cards, but they need to not be permanently in Standard.
  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2018
    Having two eternal sets would practically ruin the whole point of Standard.
    The problem with rotating Origins is that removing it would probably make half the community rage-quit... and not the half we want either :smile: (uh-oh, I did not just imply that)
    But something MUST be done for blocks (KLD, BFZ, AMK, SOI) to keep them meaningful... otherwise it's just dumped content that was worked hard upon where many cards there are now just useless. The current legacy format is a joke, not to mention the running legacy events (same decks over and over again... it's worse than paper Legacy :D ).
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  • MTG_Mage
    MTG_Mage Posts: 224 Tile Toppler
    The game is not even 3 years old yet, Origins can stay the base set at least until they figure out how to do reprints. They also said they would be doing all card and planeswalker re-balances.
    I am very impressed with the last release they did a huge overhaul to 'land' supports and many cards (see 2.8 release notes), but I think there are a lot more re-balances coming as they did not touch any legacy cards or any origins mythics.
    SOI block was very overpowered and KLD block was overpowered - aside from those sets there are only a handful of cards that are problematically OP.
  • James13
    James13 Posts: 665 Critical Contributor
    It's not a returning player issue.  It's a new player issue.

    Origins by design is the only set you can build a deck out of for 100% of the player base, pretty much by default.

    Locking new players out of events until they can pull enough new cards isn't a good thing.

    Cycling out Origins requires a re-write of Origins walkers and the game's whole intro, tutorial, and chapter 1.
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2018
    madwren said:
    It's just silly that we're going to forever have to deal with the same stale cards like Thopter Spy Network, Gaea's Revenge, and Starfield of Nyx in the meta.

    This would be the same with any set, mind you.

    Considering this is a digital product, they can always rebalance the cards from Origins at any time. And given how they've added certain types to cards, they can make several of these more in-line with their paper counterparts.

    For example, Starfield might only be able to return enchantment supports. That still leaves the card as very powerful, but limits the cards it can pull back, currently, to 166 from 373, and will eliminate some of the more degenerate combos the card has (things like Hixus, Gideon's Defeat, and Settle the Wreckage aren't enchantments)

    Thopter Spy Network can trigger if you control an artifact instead of control a support, which is more inline with it's paper card as well. This still leaves 183 cards it can pair with to trigger, but does reduce the power level and prominence of the card.

    Gaea's Revenge I would say is the one that's still tough for them to balance properly. The actual card doesn't have hexproof and can only be targeted by green sources. So in this game you should be able to target it using Rabid Bite since that's a green spell, additionally, it's controller shouldn't be able to cast something like Uncaged Fury or Stratus Walk on it since those aren't green. It's a lot of work for one card to be sure, but there should be something done to address it's current dominance in green strategies.
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sweet tinykitty I never thought I'd see a day where players argued for less access to cards.

    1. Returning players will still be at a disadvantage, even if they have most or all of Origins.  The set is powerful but clunky, and overall still pales in comparison to a well-crafted standard deck.

    2. The entry barriers to this game are steep.  I recently brought it two more friends to this game.  They both consistently rank pretty high in mtg tournaments, and in the past week they both have complained to me about how difficult it is to get a footing in this game. 

    3. Yeah GR and Starfield can be annoying, but every set has powerful cards.  What's the argument then?  To have the only set usable in both legacy and standard having no powerful cards?  Making it even more difficult for a beginning or returning player to jump into the fray is just going to make more problems.
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards

    3. Yeah GR and Starfield can be annoying, but every set has powerful cards.  What's the argument then?  To have the only set usable in both legacy and standard having no powerful cards?  Making it even more difficult for a beginning or returning player to jump into the fray is just going to make more problems.
    Even if these cards are balanced to be more in line with how they're treating cards in the game, there will still be plenty of powerful cards in Origins. Hangarback Walker is still very powerful. Pyromancer's Goggles is a regular card in a lot of spell slinger decks. Avaricious Dragon, Infinite Obliteration, Hixus, Chandra's Ignition, and Alhammarret's Archive are all cards I see on a regular basis.

    I think the point of a staple set should be to provide the basics each color needs to cover its bases, so it's more important to as if Origins is providing those staples to each color and let supplementary sets provide flavor. To that end, I don't think that Origins is covering all the bases. White typically has artifact/enchantment (in this case support) removal. That's absent in Origins. Same problem for green. My personal thought would be to look at the commons they didn't print in Oath of the Gatewatch, Eldritch Moon, and Aether Revolt and see if there are any holes that need to be sured up, and add those cards into Origins. Ironwright's Cleansing (exile a support) in white, and Natural Obsolescence (shuffle a non-token support into your opponent's library) in green would be good additions.
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    wereotter said:

    3. Yeah GR and Starfield can be annoying, but every set has powerful cards.  What's the argument then?  To have the only set usable in both legacy and standard having no powerful cards?  Making it even more difficult for a beginning or returning player to jump into the fray is just going to make more problems.
    Even if these cards are balanced to be more in line with how they're treating cards in the game, there will still be plenty of powerful cards in Origins. Hangarback Walker is still very powerful. Pyromancer's Goggles is a regular card in a lot of spell slinger decks. Avaricious Dragon, Infinite Obliteration, Hixus, Chandra's Ignition, and Alhammarret's Archive are all cards I see on a regular basis.

    I think the point of a staple set should be to provide the basics each color needs to cover its bases, so it's more important to as if Origins is providing those staples to each color and let supplementary sets provide flavor. To that end, I don't think that Origins is covering all the bases. White typically has artifact/enchantment (in this case support) removal. That's absent in Origins. Same problem for green. My personal thought would be to look at the commons they didn't print in Oath of the Gatewatch, Eldritch Moon, and Aether Revolt and see if there are any holes that need to be sured up, and add those cards into Origins. Ironwright's Cleansing (exile a support) in white, and Natural Obsolescence (shuffle a non-token support into your opponent's library) in green would be good additions.
    I'd be game for that.  If anything, Origins needs an expansion not a nerf.

    Heck I'd be satisfied if they only took all the commons and uncommons from m19 and added them to Origins.  It wouldn't make Origins much more powerful than it currently is, but a bit more well-rounded.
  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 831 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2018
       Origins set doesnt only allow players that have left the game to become competitive again when they are back or newer players to catch the train ... It also allows actual players (more casual ones) to remain able to play in their tier.
     
       In most cases, particularly in platinum, heavy players and whales have time to gather enough ressources before next set is released in order to be in the starting blocks on day 1 and get enough fresh cards at their disposal. Of course, I am talking of rares/mythics and even Mp's here.
       Besides, if they miss important cards in a set, booster crafting generally allows them to gather what they need after that.

         Now what happens to veteran players that choosed the casual approach?... They are entering platinum brackets filled with heavy stuff ... But they generally have access to very few valuable cards (origins apart) , because their collection gets outdated faster than they can collect new efficient cards.
       Let's not forget that right now, even in platinum, casual players are mostly opening XLN boosters ... While the cards will be legacy in about 2 months. 
       
      With origins being around, they don't exclusively rely on new sets, they can buy packs here and there for the pleasure of pulling new cards, but they don't get totally screwed because of dirty pulls and they are still able to play in their bracket, even if they get a huge disadvantage anyway.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brakkis said:
    bken1234 said:
    Mburn7 said:

    In summary, we're going to have to deal with TSN, Starfield, Gaia, and the rest of Origins for a very long time, no matter what we say or do.
    Honestly I think this is wishful thinking. Clearly, some directives about this game come down from WOTC, and I can't see WOTC wanting this spin off game to revolve around Origins long after the paper game has moved on.

    Rewriting the tutorials really isn't as big a job as you make out, and the players will get over rotation, just like they did when Standard was introduced into MTGPQ and paper.

    The key problem to solve, as you point out, is probably new players entering the game just before rotation, but I think there are solutions... making both Origins and the new set legal for a period of time during rotation, or perhaps guaranteeing new players who sign up a minimum amount of time for which their cards will be legal. maybe even just giving them a ton of free crystals.
    And what about players who return to the game and find 100% of their cards unusable. 

    A unique thing about this game is the "they always come back" phenomenon. Players will leave for 3 months, 6 months, 18 months and they seem to find their way back. 

    We have had several of my top 10 teammates come back after 6-18 months out of the game and they are able to get a good jump start because of their Origins collections. 

    My alt is in Platinum and half of the standard cards there are Origins. In short -- it can't just go away, pretty much ever. It can be renamed, or built on -- but those cards can't go away without alienating part of the player base. 

    The "returning player" argument is garbage and semi-invalidated by any number of MMO style games out there that also has the "they always come back" player base. For instance, If I were to return to World of Warcraft right now I'd be stuck running around in gear from 3 expansions ago and super low level comparatively. I was one of the top 50 players in the world when I quit. I wouldn't get any sort of compensation for returning and I wouldn't be immediately capable of jumping in to new content. I have to work for it.

    A returning player here would be on the same level as a new player and that is completely fine. You don't get to compete just because you used to play. You stopped playing. You came back to a different playing field. Time to work for it like anyone else. It's the price to be paid for stopping playing for an extended period of time.

    You made an investment in this game four months ago, or sixth months ago, or a year ago. The investment period has worn off. Time to reinvest.

    Origins being permanent made some sense when WOTC was no longer doing Core Sets. That stance has changed and the game should change to reflect that. I love my Origins cards, but they need to not be permanently in Standard.
    A returning platinum player comes back to platinum with a virtually unusable collection. So they aren’t on the same level of a new player and the argument is completely valid. 
  • MTG_Mage
    MTG_Mage Posts: 224 Tile Toppler
    wereotter said:
    madwren said:
    It's just silly that we're going to forever have to deal with the same stale cards like Thopter Spy Network, Gaea's Revenge, and Starfield of Nyx in the meta.

    This would be the same with any set, mind you.

    Considering this is a digital product, they can always rebalance the cards from Origins at any time. And given how they've added certain types to cards, they can make several of these more in-line with their paper counterparts.

    For example, Starfield might only be able to return enchantment supports. That still leaves the card as very powerful, but limits the cards it can pull back, currently, to 166 from 373, and will eliminate some of the more degenerate combos the card has (things like Hixus, Gideon's Defeat, and Settle the Wreckage aren't enchantments)

    Thopter Spy Network can trigger if you control an artifact instead of control a support, which is more inline with it's paper card as well. This still leaves 183 cards it can pair with to trigger, but does reduce the power level and prominence of the card.

    Gaea's Revenge I would say is the one that's still tough for them to balance properly. The actual card doesn't have hexproof and can only be targeted by green sources. So in this game you should be able to target it using Rabid Bite since that's a green spell, additionally, it's controller shouldn't be able to cast something like Uncaged Fury or Stratus Walk on it since those aren't green. It's a lot of work for one card to be sure, but there should be something done to address it's current dominance in green strategies.
    these are good suggestions for re-balancing Starfield and TSN. GR should be reduced to 12/8 from 16/9 and that should be adequate (keeping hexproof is fine, unless they want to program hexproof from all but green).
    They should reduce all creatures that with no buffs enter the battlefield larger than 8/8 slightly so that a rare max is 10 and mythic+ max is 12 as opposed to the rare 12 and mythic 16 max that it currently is. This only affects like 20 cards, and would keep the power levels more in line.
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