*** Loki (Dark Reign) ***

Unknown

Most people knock Loki for being 100% defense/support, but the dude is an offensive powerhouse when teamed with Patch. They have some of THE best 2 char synergy in the game.

Unknown

Switchman wrote:

Most people knock Loki for being 100% defense/support, but the dude is an offensive powerhouse when teamed with Patch. They have some of THE best 2 char synergy in the game.

Too bad the AI doesn't know how to use that synergy on defense, though.

Talahamut

shade_tree wrote:

Too bad the AI doesn't know how to use that synergy on defense, though.

The match I had a couple days ago would beg to differ.

AI BRage's followed right up by Trickery... "Somebody learned how to putt!"

Wonko33

I love him too,

Powerful powers well balanced by low health and no offensive powers

His powers make him suck a jerk, turning the table when opponent gets an advantage, which goes well with the comic book character too.

One of my favorite

Wonko33

Lerysh wrote:

Hoods steal is also conditional based on board make up. Loki is better on both Offense and Defense, he has slightly more HP and he causes sub optimal play by the player if they choose not to take the 4s OR if they take the 4s and give you AP. Hood does at least have one offensive power tho.

And it's super easy to bait the AI to take a 4 match, even if they can't use that color

scottee

Phantron wrote:

scottee wrote:

Phantron wrote:

I really have a hard time seeing how if players considered Phermone Rage and Adamantium Bones as frustrating (because you can't stop it short of never matching that color) how Loki's 'try to make all your moves as bad as possible' gameplay is going to last. Sure, it works well when you're using him and you just made some terrible moves and Loki's there to bail you out, but it's really stupid when facing him you see a great move and have to always remind yourself that you can't take it. That ability should be reserved for a boss only, and hopefully one we don't see very often either, because it's really dumb to have never be able to make a good move until he's downed.

You can take the match 4/5, but it has to be selective. Does it give a move that will kill him on the next turn? Will his countdown tiles pop up on a color you'll likely be able to match 2 of them away on next turn?

He definitely ups the level of thinking required.

There's really not much thinking involved. If taking a match 4/5 can kill him next turn you'll do it. Otherwise, you really should never do it because even 2 Mischief tiles is likely +4 AP to him (could be as few as +2AP). You get 8 AP on a match 4, so just 2 Mischief tiles canceled out your move (you got +4 AP but so did he, so you gained nothing) and thus your move is roughly the same as losing your turn, so you'd be better off breaking up and take a +3 AP instead of +0 AP (+4 AP to you, +4 AP to them) and possibly a lot worse. Obviously some colors are worth gambling (like green) but if it's not a primary attack color there's no reason to take the risk. Note that the cascade caused by Mischief itself can be nontrivial as well. I mean, I can deal with him, but he's got the same 'lol more protect tile' ala Adamantium Bones, which from what I understand is one of the most hated abilities in the game despite doing practically nothing meaningful, and unlike Adamantium Bones, Mischief can definitely hurt you a lot. What's particularly aggrevating is when you get say a blue match 4 that you didn't even know was there and watch it blow up in your face. You shouldn't have to feel bad about lucking into a match 4 but against Loki you obviously do. Playing against Loki is quite literally 'good moves are bad and bad moves are good (or at least they won't get you killed)' and I think while that might be cool as a boss mechanism, it's not very fun as a common opponent.

"Most people don't involve much thinking" is more accurate I'd say.

All AP is not created equal, and so all AP steal is not created equal:

-On average, there's probably 3 of the 7 colors that are meaningless in a match. (In a Loki/XForce/loaner mirror match, you only care about how much green/black/purple you and the AI have.) That means 3/7 of the mischief tiles are meaningless. Further, if the match 4/5 will get you one match from a game winning move, like Surgical, and you'll be able to get the AP next turn, even if you let all 4 Mischief tiles go off, there's a 54% chance that it won't steal from the color you were saving (assuming you have all 7 colors and the spread stays even).

-Mischief only steals from colors you have. You can check this beforehand, and know what colors you will pick up. So there can be an even higher percentage of colors that are meaningless.

-Mischief will steal 1 AP if that's all you have in that color. After a match 4 or line match 5, this is often the case. Again, you can check this ahead of time. Effectiveness reduced further.

-Last, and this is the biggest one, enemy AP means NOTHING if they never fire off the ability. Having 7 green AP doesn't mean they get to use seven-eighths of an X-Force. It means they get to use none of it.

Tangent: Managing enemy AP is the #1 area players can improve, because I can tell from so many posts that no one does it. You can let LThor have all the green he wants, up until 13. Because it's all worth it as long as he doesn't make it to 14. The first thought a player should make before making a move is, "What moves am I leaving the AI?", not "What color do I need?" You can reduce most cascades, save the 3 tiles that drop from the ceiling, by looking ahead. And even with the ones that drop, you can calculate the probability of it dropping something huge for the AI. "If I make this move, there's a 1/7 chance it gives me a match 5, but a 2/7 chance it leaves the AI a match 5."


So yes, it's possible to play without much thought involved and just say "never make a match 4/5". Or you can play with more thought and not be scared off by a single ability.

I'm not saying you should ignore. The majority of the time it's still better not to take the match 4/5, and to ruin it instead. But there's more than 0% of the time that it's advantageous to make the move.

D3P2K5

I've noticed this quite a few times now where Loki's Mischief fails to trigger CD tiles whenever the AI makes a match 4 of red tiles where at least 2 of those tiles are non-basic (e.g. strike tiles or protect tiles). This only happens with red and not any other color.

Unknown

This is probably just because there weren't any basic red tiles for Loki to convert. Since you're specifically seeing this with red, in matches where there are red special tiles, I'm guessing all the others were already taken up by Blade's or Daken's strike tiles.

GrimSkald

I presently have my Loki at 5/3/5 at 139 - this is the level where he doesn't tank anything with Patch and Daken on the team. I've been wondering just how much I get out of keeping Loki underleveled - he still out-tanks many other people in many other colors, the more levels will get him more hit points, and keeping him underleveled does nothing on defense.

I'd be curious to know what other people think.

Quebbster

My Loki is maxed and when paired with Patch and Daken he only tanks purple. If you plan to play him in PvP you should max him.

Marc_Spector

Agreed. I was in the same boat with mine at 5/3/5 and around the same level. Even though none of his abilities scale with level, it was great to cap him out purely for the peace of mind of knowing he's done. (And, he's proved his worth repeatedly since.)

Unknown

Is 5/3/5 still his prime build?

Whoops made a mistake XD

john1620b

As the poll says, his best build is 5 / 3 / 5

There's just not enough improvement in going 5 covers in purple to make it worth it, compared to the other two abilities.

lymang

I just got my 13th cover for Loki, bringing him to 5/5/3, so after reading this now I'll look for more green covers. For now I have no choice but to settle but it sounds like 5/3/5 is the best bet.

mgallop

So, the Loki PvP makes me think that Loki has one of the biggest differences in quality between defense and offense in the game, just because the AI will always activate mischief. I haven't lost yet in the PvP despite going against multiple 290-350-350 teams, and I only have 1 defensive win, if you have Loki on offense the opponent just never has the AP to set off a power, whereas if you're attacking Loki, you can put him in front, and match 3 until you can down him.

Orion

mgallop wrote:

So, the Loki PvP makes me think that Loki has one of the biggest differences in quality between defense and offense in the game, just because the AI will always activate mischief. I haven't lost yet in the PvP despite going against multiple 290-350-350 teams, and I only have 1 defensive win, if you have Loki on offense the opponent just never has the AP to set off a power, whereas if you're attacking Loki, you can put him in front, and match 3 until you can down him.

Yeah, but in this PvP, if the opponent is using Loki/IF/IMHB, is Loki really the one you want to go after first? And not being able to hit any match 4's or 5's gives the AI enough time to Repulsor Punch your face off.

mgallop

I dunno, I find that taking a match 3, leaving your opponent a match 4 and then stealing 6+ AP makes it hard for them to grab 9 red, and the illusions/IFoKL overlap makes Overdrive way less likely. Like, if they're constantly making match 4s and getting mischiefed, the likelihood that they grab the AP necessary for an ability goes down a bunch in my experience.

Unknown

mgallop wrote:

So, the Loki PvP makes me think that Loki has one of the biggest differences in quality between defense and offense in the game, just because the AI will always activate mischief. I haven't lost yet in the PvP despite going against multiple 290-350-350 teams, and I only have 1 defensive win, if you have Loki on offense the opponent just never has the AP to set off a power, whereas if you're attacking Loki, you can put him in front, and match 3 until you can down him.

you pretty mcuh always want to go after loki first due to mischief.

It's very hard to counter. Also, since Iron Fist is powered up, it's pretty easy to Attack Tile him down anyway.

Jathro

mgallop wrote:

Like, if they're constantly making match 4s and getting mischiefed, the likelihood that they grab the AP necessary for an ability goes down a bunch in my experience.

Unless they can spend the AP before Mischief counts down or gets matched away. It doesn't matter how many Mischief tiles you have out if Repulsor Punch one shots you

Vhailorx

Its true that Loki can't do anything about a sufficiently large ai cascades. But that's true of every character in the game, and Loki does provide significant protection from smaller cascades and match-4s/match-5s.