Planeswalker Rebalancing Part 2

FindingHeart8

DumasAG said:

show previous quotes

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I mean, his 2nd is decent.  Essentially Nissa's first ability for 4 more mana.  Charge counters aren't super useful unless you have 1 of the handful of cards that really can optimize off of them

Uhhhh.  Is this in the right place?  Greenjani's second is Gideon's second (or Nahiri's first) with energize.

Nissa's first is draw a card, gain life, and convert gems (assuming you mean OG nissa)

And what charge counters?

lolololol my bad.  For some reason I always mix the two names up.  I've been calling Nissa Nahiri and vice versa for a while even in paper mtg

I meant energize 4.  Charge counters were paper mtg's version of energizing about 8 years before Kaladesh was released.

It's end-of-day-at-work-Friday...mah brain is deflating >.<

I feel you there man.  And I figured the charge might be energize, I was deeply confused by the Nissa/Nahiri mix up.  I guess all Zendikari look the same to you, huh.  Planeist.

First time I saw Nahiri, I actually thought she Sorin's rebellious sister because of how pale she was.

I should remember Nissa better because she's mtg's tribute to Ferngully, who also happened to release the Eldrazi thinking they would just be grateful and want to cuddle.

So when I told people that Nahiri was an idiot for thinking Eldrazi lives matter and Nissa has serious vampire daddy issues, they were probably just as confused as you were.

Ferngully, an allusion which will completely whiff on 95% of this game's player population :P

I'M NOT THAT OLD!!!

well...maybe

DumasAG

FindingHeart8 said:

show previous quotes

DumasAG said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I mean, his 2nd is decent.  Essentially Nissa's first ability for 4 more mana.  Charge counters aren't super useful unless you have 1 of the handful of cards that really can optimize off of them

Uhhhh.  Is this in the right place?  Greenjani's second is Gideon's second (or Nahiri's first) with energize.

Nissa's first is draw a card, gain life, and convert gems (assuming you mean OG nissa)

And what charge counters?

lolololol my bad.  For some reason I always mix the two names up.  I've been calling Nissa Nahiri and vice versa for a while even in paper mtg

I meant energize 4.  Charge counters were paper mtg's version of energizing about 8 years before Kaladesh was released.

It's end-of-day-at-work-Friday...mah brain is deflating >.<

I feel you there man.  And I figured the charge might be energize, I was deeply confused by the Nissa/Nahiri mix up.  I guess all Zendikari look the same to you, huh.  Planeist.

First time I saw Nahiri, I actually thought she Sorin's rebellious sister because of how pale she was.

I should remember Nissa better because she's mtg's tribute to Ferngully, who also happened to release the Eldrazi thinking they would just be grateful and want to cuddle.

So when I told people that Nahiri was an idiot for thinking Eldrazi lives matter and Nissa has serious vampire daddy issues, they were probably just as confused as you were.

Ferngully, an allusion which will completely whiff on 95% of this game's player population :P

I'M NOT THAT OLD!!!

well...maybe

It's ok mate, I had it on VHS too (subs out fist bump for walking stick bump)

FindingHeart8

DumasAG said:

show previous quotes

FindingHeart8 said:

DumasAG said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I mean, his 2nd is decent.  Essentially Nissa's first ability for 4 more mana.  Charge counters aren't super useful unless you have 1 of the handful of cards that really can optimize off of them

Uhhhh.  Is this in the right place?  Greenjani's second is Gideon's second (or Nahiri's first) with energize.

Nissa's first is draw a card, gain life, and convert gems (assuming you mean OG nissa)

And what charge counters?

lolololol my bad.  For some reason I always mix the two names up.  I've been calling Nissa Nahiri and vice versa for a while even in paper mtg

I meant energize 4.  Charge counters were paper mtg's version of energizing about 8 years before Kaladesh was released.

It's end-of-day-at-work-Friday...mah brain is deflating >.<

I feel you there man.  And I figured the charge might be energize, I was deeply confused by the Nissa/Nahiri mix up.  I guess all Zendikari look the same to you, huh.  Planeist.

First time I saw Nahiri, I actually thought she Sorin's rebellious sister because of how pale she was.

I should remember Nissa better because she's mtg's tribute to Ferngully, who also happened to release the Eldrazi thinking they would just be grateful and want to cuddle.

So when I told people that Nahiri was an idiot for thinking Eldrazi lives matter and Nissa has serious vampire daddy issues, they were probably just as confused as you were.

Ferngully, an allusion which will completely whiff on 95% of this game's player population :P

I'M NOT THAT OLD!!!

well...maybe

It's ok mate, I had it on VHS too (subs out fist bump for walking stick bump)

VHS's aren't that old either!

on topic: world needs rebalancing so this planeswalker *points at self* feels younger

bk1234

[MOD NOTE] Discussion split from Necro-ed thread [//MOD NOTE]

Kinesia

Some of the problems that come up with particular walkers are due to the AI, so I don't think you can talk about "balance" separately from that.

They are all going to spam their first ability if they can, so why try and adjust someone's later abilities at all when they will never get there?

But there are AI tweaks that could help without changing anything else...

Some of the walkers improved just by restricting when their card draw abilities could be used and similar thoughts might help others.
Koth and Kiora epecially need to be encouraged to use their later abilities...


As a _player_ I use Koth's first ability when I can't make a red match but the AI does it even when they can, so you can easily add a rule for that. The 2nd ability... How do you decide when to use that? Anytime you can have creatures attack? Or do you pick and choose somehow?

Kiora... The first ability can be spammed anytime, sure, but maybe you could easily have her _aim_ for her 2nd, so have the rule ""If you don't have a creature then save for power 2 and do NOT play power 1."", I can't think of any good way to say "save for 3rd ability" though.


This "tangential" conversation is actually an important part of any balance talk.

Aeroplane

MTG_Mage said:

Now that the devs have announced that they will be putting time into planeswalker and card balances, here is a reasonable approach:

Instead of going over each and every facet of all planeswalkers, how about looking at the only things they all have in common, HP and mana bonuses.

Planeswalker balances

By far the most important thing with PWs is their mana gains:

- All mono colored PWs need to have a total mana bonus of +9, with +5 in their color (if you want to keep the original 5 weaker, then they at least require an additional +2 to their color [totaling +5, +7 overall])

- Dual colored PWs need to have a total mana bonus of +8 (optimally with +4 in each of their colors)

- The only tricolored PW is perfectly balanced at +7 total, with +3 in each of its colors. 

All HP needs to be closer to 110, which is the average (a 53 HP spread between lowest and highest HP is very unbalanced): 

- All below 100 HP should get +10 or +15 HP

- All above 120 should get -10 HP

- All between 100-120 should be given +/-5 to get closer to 110

This averaging of HP and higher average mana gains will also help fix another problem - how long each match takes as it is now way too long.

Unfortunately, you didn't take the tier level of PWs into account.  Someone who paid 850 crystals for Bolas shouldn't have beginner planeswalkers out gain them. Having all PWs on par is a bad marketing philosophy for the company, too. I get where you're coming from , but it is a business after all. You need people to chase mythics, spontaneously buy new PWs and drop coin on a whim to make a profit.