Planeswalker Rebalancing Part 2

FindingHeart8

Enygma6 said:

Saheeli's mana gains are the main reason that I use her, in spite of her constrained abilities now that the KLD block has rotated out of Standard.  
If her abilities are made to be less tied to that set, I wouldn't mind her mana gains being nerfed a little.  I think having +4 on Blue and Red, with 0 on the others would be fine.  This would put her at a +8 total, the same as all the newer 2-color PWs.  
As is, all 1-color PWs range from +5 to +9, the 2-colors range from +6 to +11, with (I think) Tezz2's +9 being the only other to go above +8.

the +1 to her white/black mana gains was to compensate for the overall reduction of her original planeswalker abilities, which were considerably better.  The state she is in now is her nerfed form.

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

Mainloop25 said:

How about reverting her abilities back to what they used to be before kaladesh was released? 

What were those again?  I know the ult was to pull 4 supports instead of vehicles, can't remember the rest.  I was locked out of winning her (and most events) with a ton of crashes back then

I won in in the event, and...somewhere....I have some screenshots of her abilities.

(6): summon 4 1/1 thopters (which were not constructs at the time)

(9): +5/+5 to each construct you control

(20) fetch 4 supports

mana gains: +4 red, +4 blue, +1 green

Mburn7

I think the biggest issue with this debate is twofold.

1)  Should Origins planeswalkers be the same power level as the others, or not?

2)  Should all planeswalkers be equally super-powerful (really good mana gains and abilities), or should they all be equally limited (decent mana gains and situationally good abilities)?

There seems to be a lot of conflicting feelings on these, which is why the debate has been raging for so long and why it gets a bit contentious at times.

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

I think the biggest issue with this debate is twofold.

1)  Should Origins planeswalkers be the same power level as the others, or not?

2)  Should all planeswalkers be equally super-powerful (really good mana gains and abilities), or should they all be equally limited (decent mana gains and situationally good abilities)?

There seems to be a lot of conflicting feelings on these, which is why the debate has been raging for so long and why it gets a bit contentious at times.

these are good questions.  My take on this:

1) Origins planeswalkers should not be as powerful as other walkers, as they are meant as intro planeswalkers and are considerably cheaper than other planeswalkers.  That being said, they should all get a small boost (maybe +1, +5, +1 mana gains, and an additional 30 hp?) to make them somewhat competitive here.

You should still be at a disadvantage facing a different walker with an Origins walker, but I shouldn't be able to determine that I have an almost guaranteed victory (before the match even starts) just because I'm facing an Origins walker.

2) Ideally, different degrees of power but not so far apart it makes you feel like there's a huge power difference.  Like Samut is amazing if you're playing green-ramp with aggressive creatures, but if you want to run a heavy spell-based deck you'd probably want to go with Kiora or Bolas.

Different planeswalkers appeal to a selection of different strategies, but all should at least be able to put up a fight; Huati1, Chandra2, Tezz1, Arlinn, Sarkhan don't really have a place in this game anymore except for maybe the occasional retro event.

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

I think the biggest issue with this debate is twofold.

1)  Should Origins planeswalkers be the same power level as the others, or not?

2)  Should all planeswalkers be equally super-powerful (really good mana gains and abilities), or should they all be equally limited (decent mana gains and situationally good abilities)?

There seems to be a lot of conflicting feelings on these, which is why the debate has been raging for so long and why it gets a bit contentious at times.

Different planeswalkers appeal to a selection of different strategies, but all should at least be able to put up a fight; Huati1, Chandra2, Tezz1, Arlinn, Sarkhan don't really have a place in this game anymore except for maybe the occasional retro event.

I actually like Tezz 1 for my **** support control deck.  He's still great for that.

The funny thing is most of these walkers are bad because of garbage abilities, not bad mana (Sarkhan and Greenjani are the exceptions).  Tezz 1, Gid Z, Ob, Garruk, and Sarkhan all came out together with those same balanced but weak mana gains, and they are the only ones who really desperately need a mana buff.

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

I think the biggest issue with this debate is twofold.

1)  Should Origins planeswalkers be the same power level as the others, or not?

2)  Should all planeswalkers be equally super-powerful (really good mana gains and abilities), or should they all be equally limited (decent mana gains and situationally good abilities)?

There seems to be a lot of conflicting feelings on these, which is why the debate has been raging for so long and why it gets a bit contentious at times.

Different planeswalkers appeal to a selection of different strategies, but all should at least be able to put up a fight; Huati1, Chandra2, Tezz1, Arlinn, Sarkhan don't really have a place in this game anymore except for maybe the occasional retro event.

I actually like Tezz 1 for my tinykitty support control deck.  He's still great for that.

The funny thing is most of these walkers are bad because of garbage abilities, not bad mana (Sarkhan and Greenjani are the exceptions).  Tezz 1, Gid Z, Ob, Garruk, and Sarkhan all came out together with those same balanced but weak mana gains, and they are the only ones who really desperately need a mana buff.

Yeah, my comment was meant more as a general statement because your question seemed more like a "what's our overall goal here?" kinda thing lol.  I agree with you though that some of the walkers have the issue of garbage abilities, and some have good abilities (like Ob) but horrible mana gains.

I forgot about green Ajani, what a bad card lol.

Gilesclone

Green Ajani isn’t too bad for PvE.  But his abilities and mana are subpar.

Mburn7

Gilesclone said:

Green Ajani isn’t too bad for PvE.  But his abilities and mana are subpar.

Actually his abilities are quite good.  Its the +2 in green and +4 in white that's awful.  

Gilesclone

His 2nd is excellent.  His first is ok, but his ultimate is really weak.

FindingHeart8

I mean, his 2nd is decent.  Essentially Nissa's first ability for 4 more mana.  Charge counters aren't super useful unless you have 1 of the handful of cards that really can optimize off of them

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

I mean, his 2nd is decent.  Essentially Nissa's first ability for 4 more mana.  Charge counters aren't super useful unless you have 1 of the handful of cards that really can optimize off of them

Uhhhh.  Is this in the right place?  Greenjani's second is Gideon's second (or Nahiri's first) with energize.

Nissa's first is draw a card, gain life, and convert gems (assuming you mean OG nissa)

And what charge counters?

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I mean, his 2nd is decent.  Essentially Nissa's first ability for 4 more mana.  Charge counters aren't super useful unless you have 1 of the handful of cards that really can optimize off of them

Uhhhh.  Is this in the right place?  Greenjani's second is Gideon's second (or Nahiri's first) with energize.

Nissa's first is draw a card, gain life, and convert gems (assuming you mean OG nissa)

And what charge counters?

lolololol my bad.  For some reason I always mix the two names up.  I've been calling Nissa Nahiri and vice versa for a while even in paper mtg

I meant energize 4.  Charge counters were paper mtg's version of energizing about 8 years before Kaladesh was released.

It's end-of-day-at-work-Friday...mah brain is deflating >.<

wereotter

Mburn7 said:

2)  Should all planeswalkers be equally super-powerful (really good mana gains and abilities), or should they all be equally limited (decent mana gains and situationally good abilities)?

Personally, I prefer the idea of them all having niche areas to shine. Granted we will eventually run out of unique areas for each one to shine, but you can distribute them throughout the colors. This can be done both through abilities, and through cards that they are uniquely able to take good advantage of, like Ajani 1 has the most spell slots enabling him to make the most effective deck for Firesong and Sunspeaker.

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I mean, his 2nd is decent.  Essentially Nissa's first ability for 4 more mana.  Charge counters aren't super useful unless you have 1 of the handful of cards that really can optimize off of them

Uhhhh.  Is this in the right place?  Greenjani's second is Gideon's second (or Nahiri's first) with energize.

Nissa's first is draw a card, gain life, and convert gems (assuming you mean OG nissa)

And what charge counters?

lolololol my bad.  For some reason I always mix the two names up.  I've been calling Nissa Nahiri and vice versa for a while even in paper mtg

I meant energize 4.  Charge counters were paper mtg's version of energizing about 8 years before Kaladesh was released.

It's end-of-day-at-work-Friday...mah brain is deflating >.<

I feel you there man.  And I figured the charge might be energize, I was deeply confused by the Nissa/Nahiri mix up.  I guess all Zendikari look the same to you, huh.  Planeist.

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I mean, his 2nd is decent.  Essentially Nissa's first ability for 4 more mana.  Charge counters aren't super useful unless you have 1 of the handful of cards that really can optimize off of them

Uhhhh.  Is this in the right place?  Greenjani's second is Gideon's second (or Nahiri's first) with energize.

Nissa's first is draw a card, gain life, and convert gems (assuming you mean OG nissa)

And what charge counters?

lolololol my bad.  For some reason I always mix the two names up.  I've been calling Nissa Nahiri and vice versa for a while even in paper mtg

I meant energize 4.  Charge counters were paper mtg's version of energizing about 8 years before Kaladesh was released.

It's end-of-day-at-work-Friday...mah brain is deflating >.<

I feel you there man.  And I figured the charge might be energize, I was deeply confused by the Nissa/Nahiri mix up.  I guess all Zendikari look the same to you, huh.  Planeist.

First time I saw Nahiri, I actually thought she Sorin's rebellious sister because of how pale she was.

I should remember Nissa better because she's mtg's tribute to Ferngully, who also happened to release the Eldrazi thinking they would just be grateful and want to cuddle.

So when I told people that Nahiri was an idiot for thinking Eldrazi lives matter and Nissa has serious vampire daddy issues, they were probably just as confused as you were.

Unknown

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Kinesia

Nahiri is obviously from Skaar where the Hulk was a Gladiator.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

FindingHeart8

Kinesia said:

Nahiri is obviously from Skaar where the Hulk was a Gladiator.

I'm almost certain Nahiri is the main character in iZombie

DumasAG

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I mean, his 2nd is decent.  Essentially Nissa's first ability for 4 more mana.  Charge counters aren't super useful unless you have 1 of the handful of cards that really can optimize off of them

Uhhhh.  Is this in the right place?  Greenjani's second is Gideon's second (or Nahiri's first) with energize.

Nissa's first is draw a card, gain life, and convert gems (assuming you mean OG nissa)

And what charge counters?

lolololol my bad.  For some reason I always mix the two names up.  I've been calling Nissa Nahiri and vice versa for a while even in paper mtg

I meant energize 4.  Charge counters were paper mtg's version of energizing about 8 years before Kaladesh was released.

It's end-of-day-at-work-Friday...mah brain is deflating >.<

I feel you there man.  And I figured the charge might be energize, I was deeply confused by the Nissa/Nahiri mix up.  I guess all Zendikari look the same to you, huh.  Planeist.

First time I saw Nahiri, I actually thought she Sorin's rebellious sister because of how pale she was.

I should remember Nissa better because she's mtg's tribute to Ferngully, who also happened to release the Eldrazi thinking they would just be grateful and want to cuddle.

So when I told people that Nahiri was an idiot for thinking Eldrazi lives matter and Nissa has serious vampire daddy issues, they were probably just as confused as you were.

Ferngully, an allusion which will completely whiff on 95% of this game's player population :P