Planeswalker Rebalancing Part 2

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Planeswalker Rebalancing.

MTG_Mage

Now that the devs have announced that they will be putting time into planeswalker and card balances, here is a reasonable approach:

Instead of going over each and every facet of all planeswalkers, how about looking at the only things they all have in common, HP and mana bonuses.

Planeswalker balances

By far the most important thing with PWs is their mana gains:

- All mono colored PWs need to have a total mana bonus of +9, with +5 in their color (if you want to keep the original 5 weaker, then they at least require an additional +2 to their color [totaling +5, +7 overall])

- Dual colored PWs need to have a total mana bonus of +8 (optimally with +4 in each of their colors)

- The only tricolored PW is perfectly balanced at +7 total, with +3 in each of its colors. 

All HP needs to be closer to 110, which is the average (a 53 HP spread between lowest and highest HP is very unbalanced): 

- All below 100 HP should get +10 or +15 HP

- All above 120 should get -10 HP

- All between 100-120 should be given +/-5 to get closer to 110

This averaging of HP and higher average mana gains will also help fix another problem - how long each match takes as it is now way too long.

TomB

I've never noticed PVP matches taking "way too long"...

Gunmix25

MTG_Mage said:

Now that the devs have announced that they will be putting time into planeswalker and card balances, here is a reasonable approach:

Instead of going over each and every facet of all planeswalkers, how about looking at the only things they all have in common, HP and mana bonuses.

Planeswalker balances

By far the most important thing with PWs is their mana gains:

- All mono colored PWs need to have a total mana bonus of +9, with +5 in their color (if you want to keep the original 5 weaker, then they at least require an additional +2 to their color [totaling +5, +7 overall])

- Dual colored PWs need to have a total mana bonus of +8 (optimally with +4 in each of their colors)

- The only tricolored PW is perfectly balanced at +7 total, with +3 in each of its colors. 

All HP needs to be closer to 110, which is the average (a 53 HP spread between lowest and highest HP is very unbalanced): 

- All below 100 HP should get +10 or +15 HP

- All above 120 should get -10 HP

- All between 100-120 should be given +/-5 to get closer to 110

This averaging of HP and higher average mana gains will also help fix another problem - how long each match takes as it is now way too long.

straight up this HP gap appears unfair, but Sorin has incredible lifegain….him at 110 is far more powerful than say AJ2 at 130. So no. I don't think this is needed because their mana gains and strengths of loyalty abilities are taken into account. The original PW do need an adjustment but to simply squeeze a group of PW into a narrow band of life without taking their abilities into account may unbalance things.

Part of the game is to adapt and overcome. it is also part of the fun

Mburn7

MTG_Mage said:

Now that the devs have announced that they will be putting time into planeswalker and card balances, here is a reasonable approach:

Instead of going over each and every facet of all planeswalkers, how about looking at the only things they all have in common, HP and mana bonuses.

Planeswalker balances

By far the most important thing with PWs is their mana gains:

- All mono colored PWs need to have a total mana bonus of +9, with +5 in their color (if you want to keep the original 5 weaker, then they at least require an additional +2 to their color [totaling +5, +7 overall])

- Dual colored PWs need to have a total mana bonus of +8 (optimally with +4 in each of their colors)

- The only tricolored PW is perfectly balanced at +7 total, with +3 in each of its colors. 

All HP needs to be closer to 110, which is the average (a 53 HP spread between lowest and highest HP is very unbalanced): 

- All below 100 HP should get +10 or +15 HP

- All above 120 should get -10 HP

- All between 100-120 should be given +/-5 to get closer to 110

This averaging of HP and higher average mana gains will also help fix another problem - how long each match takes as it is now way too long.

I don't think walkers need higher mana gains, I actually think its more of a mistake that some walkers got such powerful gains.  Koth was originally supposed to be the only one so heavily concentrated, but then every mono color got the same treatment and lessened the uniqueness of it.

I agree the HP flux is a bit unfair to older walkers, but there is some logic behind it.  Ajani is supposed to be a tank, so he has a ton of health.  Bolas is an elder dragon, so he should be more powerful.  Sorin gains a ton of life, so he starts with the least.  Sure the values could be tweaked a bit, but they really should fit thematically with what the walker does.

Also, the biggest issue I have with these debates is the Origins walkers.  They are supposed to be basic intros to each color and what it can do.  There is no need to make them super strong.  Honestly, I think the mana gains of newer walkers should be dropped to better match the Origins gains (maybe cap a color's bonus at +3 except in certain situations), and leave everything else the same.  The high mana gains newer walkers have makes expensive (and usually powerful) cards much too easy to play; the high cost is supposed to be a downside.  

wickedwitch74

The biggest issue (in my opinion) facing Planeswalkers, and their balancing, is that Blue Planeswalkers have been overpowered since the beginning of this game.

Cycling exacerbated this, but it remains a problem even after New Perspectives has rotated out.

Life totals are much greater than the paper game, which gives blue enough time to take control of the board.

The battlefield is limited to three creatures per side, allowing the blue walker the ability to take control of the board. "Go Wide" strategies are just not possible, and the reinforcing of creatures plays into control magic's strengths.

Recent "bounce" spells have become far nastier, now ignoring the max hand-size restrictions that limited former unsummon spells. 

The best cards in Standard are (probably) Omniscience and River's Rebuke. Both are extremely unbalancing and are, of course, BLUE.

[Deleted User]

Houdin said:

Stormcrow said:

You dressed it up with a fancy chart and some math, but this really does just look like you're trying to inflict your idea of how PWs should work and how MTGPQ should be played on everyone else. I mean, besides your distaste for your own (narrow) definition of "troll" decks (the only deck I truly consider a troll deck is a Starfield lockdown deck with no creatures and no damaging spells. When you don't bother with a win condition other than "force the real human to quit in frustration", that's when I know you're trolling.), there's Koth clocking in at 16 under your analysis - comfortably in your 13-to-17 "optimal" range - and yet you want to nerf the everloving heck out of him. You want to nerf Kiora, who clocks in at 17, by hitting her 3rd ability (in a very impractical way - note that all Octopus tokens in the game are all 8/8, or were you going to nerf Crush of Tentacles too?), while Tezz 2, who also clocks in at 17, skates through untouched; and Nicol Bolas, clocking in at 18, gets a weaksauce -5 hp to "balance" him. Basically, your nerf suggestions don't line up with your own math, and amount to just nerfing the PWs you personally don't like.

I do actually like some of your buff suggestions - your ideas for Garruk in particular - but strip away a very long chart and this is still basically just like, your opinions, man. [/lebowski]

I'd love to see the Original 5 PWs get some love - either they need their gains improved or else they should be made true "beginner PWs" by having the rune costs to level them up significantly reduced compared to other PWs. The only one that really needs any ability tweaks is Jace. And Arlinn, I think we can all agree, needs a slight ability rework, so she's at least /usable/ in standard. But you went way beyond that, and a lot of it seems to be in pursuit of making all PWs play more like each other and all of their decks more...well, ordinary.

As far as deck limits go: I see absolutely no reason not to encourage people to run Tezz1 decks with 9 supports if that's what they want to do and they can make it work. (I will admit, I personally run a Tezz1 deck with just 1 support, but it is Omniscience and I am a terrible person.) And if someone wants to run a 10-spell Chandra1 burn deck, I say more power to 'em. Creatureless Garruk decks can make a lot of sense - he can fill all 3 creature slots with just his abilities, so you may not need any more. But again, I bet Tezz1, Garruk, etc., aren't really the PWs whose deck limits you are chiefly concerned with changing - once again, you're dressing it up as "objectivity" but you're really just out to shut down specific decks you've run into that you don't like. Don't do that. Or if you're gonna do it, at least be honest about it.

Planeswalkers are different from each other. Yes this makes them harder to balance, but it also keeps things interesting. Stick to fixing the most extreme outliers and stop trying to cap other peoples' creativity at the limit of your own.

I wish there was a choice for "awesomeness " instead I just hit insightful. This thread has been hurting my brain for days, for exactly the reasons stated above. The forums in general have had an over abundance of entitlement posts lately, and honestly I can't believe I'm the one saying this. I've gotten in trouble a few times for being overly vocal towards austerity measures. 
Perhaps it's backlash from such an extended period of clawbacks and silence? 
I don't know.
To make this a relevant response.
No planeswalkers  need to be nerfed. 
Changing all the deck building constraints for every planeswalkers to be the same is unnecessary and bot in jeepung with the spirit of the game.
If you don't like playing creatureless decks than why are you playing magic? 
I run at least three that I can think of in paper magic.
The one and only thing that I am in agreement of is the fact that the starter walkers should either be cheaper to buy and level or be made slightly better to be usable for beginners, and arlinn at the very least should be altered slightly to be usable in standard. 
Once again. Great job so far Oktagon and thank you d3 for finally realizing the austerity measures were going to kill this game.

I logged in to say i agree with these two people.

I didn't go through your charts because it looks completely misaligned on my phone. But, I did go through the readable portions of the post and the comments.

I applaud your effort; but, unfortunately, your logic feels flawed and subjective. I am not trying to be mean just telling you how the post came off. This was not helped any further by your comments, as they came off stubborn (once again not trying to be mean, I cant think of the "more friendly" word at the moment). The reason is you believe in something. You believe in it strongly. You wish for others to see your belief; but, like religion, you cant force things on other people. The only thing i would recommend is to possibly consider the fact that you may be flawed/imperfect, as this usually helps promote more openness to other viewpoints - i hope this doesnt come off wrong... its really hard to discuss these things through comments. If i offend you or anyone else - I am sorry, it is not intentional. 

Now the heart of the matter. Suggestions:

I actually think there shouldnt be any deck limits like actual MTG. I mean i could make a 60 deck of all pure lands if i wanted.. technically (wait, i can right? I havent played since the urza block); but, i digress. But for the sake of flavor, broken-ness, and such i understand its necessity. However have you ever though the real issue is.. the objectives? Creatureless decks arent too bad if there wasnt an objective that read "kill 3 or more of your opponents creatures." Also technically it wouldnt be too bad if there were more cards that gave the opponents creatures. Therefore, either change the objectives so they are not dependent on the opponent and/or provide a wealth of ways to address the objective.

And also keep in mind its also the cards that influence the strategies. Therefore, it is not merely isolated to the issue of PWs but also actual card balances. Like sphinxes decree? Seems relatively balanced but you cant deny that there needs to be more non-spell oriented support destruction. This is the same issue as with the "kill 3 or more of your opponents creatures" objective - Not enough options. **just using sphinxs decree as an example, as i am torn about this card when playing against it**

The problem is simple. MTG has different "standard" blocks out and there are balances within. Now MTGPQ is a translation, modification, and then implementation of those cards to a different game mechanism. They are not equal - there will be imbalances. A possible fix is to create a new MTGPQ core set exclusive to MTGPQ to balance out the meta. OR create a masters-like core set of cards where cards are selected from other older MTG sets to help balance out the standard meta. 

EDIT: they may have to include the meta-balancing cards together with the set, similar to how the dragon masterpieces came out. The reason being they need to rotate with the set in case it causes meta problems later if they remain as a core set. But then this becomes an issue of possible reprints of cards (i.e. MTGPq exclusive card rotates with the set it came with into legacy. Then new standard meta requires the same card) and how that will be addressed. 

FindingHeart8

Hey since this is an old (and fairly lengthy) thread, anyone want to give a quick summary for the lazy kids who like to sit in the back of the classroom?

I'm not saying I was one of those, but in case any of them are here I'm sure they'd greatly appreciate it

Laeuftbeidir

FindingHeart8 said:

Hey since this is an old (and fairly lengthy) thread, anyone want to give a quick summary for the lazy kids who like to sit in the back of the classroom?

I'm not saying I was one of those, but in case any of them are here I'm sure they'd greatly appreciate it

Origins walkers weak - bad, new walkers strong - bad. Niche walkers bad. Suggestions how to make all the same. Comments pro, comments con.

MTG_Mage

thank you @jimpark for your comment. I agree with all you said.
I am just frustrated that there has only been criticism with a lack of suggestions from the board on this (and all other) threads. Its easy to criticize an idea but offering no suggestions in return is just overall unproductive to the topic.
@FindingHeart8 I suggest you read the ideas suggested as this thread is not that old or long, and you might see something you like.
I have since dropped analyzing every detail of PW stats (although I do feel some PW abilities need to be adjusted) in order to be balanced.
So my most recent post only asks for the HP and mana bonuses to be balanced. Most important thing is mana bonuses need to be very comparable. All mono PWs should have +9 mana bonus, and +8 for dual colored as stated in the above post since even a variance of 1 is significant.
HP should be moved closer to 110 as the 52 hp spread is high, but that does not mean all PWs should be exactly at 110 (see above for suggested adjustments https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/809917#Comment_809917) but a spread of say 30 instead of 52 seems more appropriate. 

Quantius

I don't think any need to be nerfed, but the older/niches ones do need to be buffed in both mana bonuses and abilities in certain cases.

I do think that in order to really achieve "balance" there needs to be a firm idea of what's an acceptable casting speed/rate for cards. If it takes one PW 4 turns to cast a 20 cost card and it takes another 2 turns, there is an issue, and this issue does exist (this is also why AI cascading to the degree and frequency it does is messed up).

A huge part of what makes MTG MTG is that it's a combination of deck building, skill, and RNG that determine success, but in MTGPQ you have the PW layer which can make a PW 1-2 turns faster than another, which really cuts into the other three factor by a huge margin. Being 1-2 turns faster EACH turn means that PW's with weaker mana bonuses fall behind further and further as the game goes on.

So imo, a buff to mana bonuses and abilities to PW's who need it and CAP on cascades (or diminishing returns on cascades) would solve most things.

EDHdad

In events, we already face Planeswalkers which are ridiculously over powered.  Sometimes, they have 500 or more starting loyalty and can produce 30 mana per turn and they have every nasty removal spell possible.  Yet, we still manage to beat them.

In other events, we face tuned decks and the enemy walkers can produce double mana, draw double cards and deal double damage while our walker has normal abilities.

So, I don't understand what the point of balancing the walkers would be.  It would just Nerf my ability to fight the AI.  It wouldn't Nerf the AI's ability to fight me.

It's also relevant how the walker actually uses its abilities.  For example, none of Sorin's abilites are relevant unless he has creatures on board.  Yet, Sorin will constantly use his first ability with an empty board, generating 0 mana and gaining 0 life.

Nicol Bolas you know is going to use his first ability if you have a targetable creature.  So, you have to play around him by not over committing to the board, or by having some way to produce multiple creatures with one card (example, a token maker). 

Almost every Ob Nixilis deck is designed to durdle around until he can cast his ultimate, and force lots of card drawing for the win.  But a human can pitch cards to free up space for more cards.  The AI never does this.  I've almost never seen an enemy Ob Nixilis actually use his 3rd ability, and when he does, it's usually pretty weak sauce unless he can also throw down a few "discard your hand and draw 6 cards" effects.

Similarly, my Kiora decks are usually designed around her 2nd ability, which the AI almost never uses.  I'm not sure I've ever seen a Kiora cast Octopus tokens. But if she ever does, you can kill them even in Standard for as little as a 5 mana bounce spell.

Aeroplane

Unfortunately, with these types of games they improve the new PWs as a selling point. Why would they balance the cards?  People would see no reason to buy the new releases. I could see them giving the earlier PWs a slight bump if they are to far behind , but no even with the new Meta.

wereotter

Planeswalker balancing, in my opinion, should be addressed by looking at things like:

* How often is this planeswalker used in PVP/PVE events?

* How do the mana gains on this planeswalker compare to others with a similar number of colors?

* How does the maximum health of this planeswalker compare to others?

So if we see a planeswalker that is used all the time, such as Kiora, Nahiri, Bolas, or Koth but don't see other planeswalkers with the same color identities being used, such as Nissa 3, Huatli 1, or any Chandra, then balancing means that the powerful offenders need to be tamed down, and those that aren't seeing use need to be bumped up. They shouldn't be identical, they should all encourage different types of builds, but they should all be equally viable.

For buffs, I think that: Garruk, Chandra 2, Huatli 1, Sarkhan and Tezzeret 1 all need to be tuned up along with all the Origins walkers, and for nerfs, I think Sammut, Saheeli, Bolas, Nahiri, Kiora, Koth, and Elspeth need to be turned down. As long as they're doing it from both ends, the nerfs don't need to be severe, which then also lets them be conservative with the buffs so as not to break the game on other walkers.

EDHdad

Even if 90% of the players are using Nicol Bolas in an event, it doesn't mean I have to be facing Nicol Bolas 90% of the time.  The developers could easily rotate the opposing walkers that we face.

I'd be more interested in stats like win percentage of a particular walker vs another walker, or of a particular card being in a deck.  But they don't even like to release those kind of stats in real Magic.

wereotter

EDHdad said:

Even if 90% of the players are using Nicol Bolas in an event, it doesn't mean I have to be facing Nicol Bolas 90% of the time.  The developers could easily rotate the opposing walkers that we face.

I'd be more interested in stats like win percentage of a particular walker vs another walker, or of a particular card being in a deck.  But they don't even like to release those kind of stats in real Magic.

I am back and forth on this. I like the idea that we face decks designed for the nodes as opposed to random decks, at least in events, but on the other hand I get really tired of seeing Bolas over and over every day that it's a red, blue, or black day. I also would like to see more variety in Training Grounds, where they easily could just pull in any deck, not just the ones registered to the Training Grounds event.

In the end, I think I would agree with you that I would like to see more variety in the planeswalkers and the decks I face, so I think the best way to do that is to make sure any planeswalker is equally (or as close to equally as possible) viable. There are other adjustments that could be made, like multi color planeswalkers can't use cards that aren't fully within their color identity (so no Storm the Vault in Nahiri but you can use it in Saheeli, no Reason//Believe in Bolas but you could use it still in Kiora) but mono-color walkers can.

EDHdad

wereotter said:

balancing means that the powerful offenders need to be tamed down, and those that aren't seeing use need to be bumped up.

That isn't going to make people choose a tier 2 walker over a tier 1 walker.  It will just change which walker is tier 1 or tier 2.

At one time, Chandra I was the best walker in the game.  She could spam her first ability for 3 loyalty, and the gems she destroyed almost always set her up to have 3 loyalty the next turn.  When Koth came out, he totally sucked.  So nobody wanted to pay $15 for him.  So they Nerfed Chandra and buffed Koth, and here we are.

At one time, Gideon II was preferable to Gideon I, because Allies were a thing and he spammed Ally tokens.  Then, when Innistrad block came out, there was this indestructible hexproof uncommon called Runaway Carriage which would completely wreck the opposing board if Gideon I used his first ability on it.  So, suddenly all decks were Gideon I with Runaway Carriage, or they were designed to beat Gideon I with Runaway Carriage.

The Walkers who could use a tweak are things like Saheeli Rai, whose abilities are obviously meant for Artifact Creatures, but Artifact Creatures did not exist at the time.  So, she's some mish-mash where she spawns Thopter Constructs and produces energy gems and can buff Constructs and can fetch Vehicles.  But Vehicles aren't constructs so it's not really a coherent strategy.

But she could easily be made to care about Artifact creatures, not "Constructs", and her 3rd ability could fetch Artifact creatures, not just vehicles.  Also maybe she could lose or not lose the energy ability.

It's the same with other Kaladesh block walkers.  They care about energy, which narrows their usefulness going forward.

wereotter

EDHdad said:

The Walkers who could use a tweak are things like Saheeli Rai, whose abilities are obviously meant for Artifact Creatures, but Artifact Creatures did not exist at the time.  So, she's some mish-mash where she spawns Thopter Constructs and produces energy gems and can buff Constructs and can fetch Vehicles.  But Vehicles aren't constructs so it's not really a coherent strategy.

But she could easily be made to care about Artifact creatures, not "Constructs", and her 3rd ability could fetch Artifact creatures, not just vehicles.  Also maybe she could lose or not lose the energy ability.

It's the same with other Kaladesh block walkers.  They care about energy, which narrows their usefulness going forward.

Saheeli, I would argue, needs more of a balancing than just that. For starters, -1 mana to all matches across the board. Her mana gains are higher than any other two color planeswalker, and higher than several single color planeswalkers. Getting +4 on two colors and +1 on every other one makes her quite the powerhouse despite her abilities being an odd mishmash. Maybe let her keep +1 on on a third color like white if we're going to let others stay higher, but things like that need to be addressed to make her just as viable as running another planeswalker.

Enygma6

Saheeli's mana gains are the main reason that I use her, in spite of her constrained abilities now that the KLD block has rotated out of Standard.  
If her abilities are made to be less tied to that set, I wouldn't mind her mana gains being nerfed a little.  I think having +4 on Blue and Red, with 0 on the others would be fine.  This would put her at a +8 total, the same as all the newer 2-color PWs.  
As is, all 1-color PWs range from +5 to +9, the 2-colors range from +6 to +11, with (I think) Tezz2's +9 being the only other to go above +8.

Mainloop25

How about reverting her abilities back to what they used to be before kaladesh was released? 

Mburn7

Mainloop25 said:

How about reverting her abilities back to what they used to be before kaladesh was released? 

What were those again?  I know the ult was to pull 4 supports instead of vehicles, can't remember the rest.  I was locked out of winning her (and most events) with a ton of crashes back then