Legacy booster crafting

gogol666

A 3-page thread discussed the topic at length but I failed to understand if there is a consensus about it. So let's do it: how do you prefer legacy booster crafting?

Unknown

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Theros

Make each legacy set craftable independently

Should have been an option like "Make each legacy set craftable independently at a Lower cost" to make the poll complete.

I wouldn't spend even 1000 orbs to independently craft legacy. Standard is good enough for my legacy needs which are few. The only legacy event worth playing  other than pve  is TG which thankfully it has infinite retries.

khurram

Neutral option

Should have been an option like "Just fricking credit the legacy cards to everyone" to make the poll complete.

gogol666

Make each legacy set craftable independently

khurram said:

Should have been an option like "Just fricking credit the legacy cards to everyone" to make the poll complete.

You really want to watch the world burn, don't you?

FindingHeart8

Leave it as is

easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.

Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed.  Leave it as is.

Mburn7

Make each legacy set craftable independently at a higher cost or all together at the actual cost

FindingHeart8 said:

easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.

Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed.  Leave it as is.

You know, I've been saying this since this debate started and everyone keeps telling me I'm an idiot.  Nice to see I'm not alone.

That being said, I voted for the "allow targeting for a higher cost" because it seems like the best compromise.

FindingHeart8

Leave it as is

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.

Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed.  Leave it as is.

You know, I've been saying this since this debate started and everyone keeps telling me I'm an idiot.  Nice to see I'm not alone.

That being said, I voted for the "allow targeting for a higher cost" because it seems like the best compromise.

I remember that, I think I was the only one that backed you up

That being said, a popular opinion doesn't mean an accurate one.

While I admit that in the short-term it would feel really nice to be able to easily acquire every card in this game that I want, but thinking about the long-term I realize that it's better for gameplay to not have every card.

Certain cards are distinguishably better than others, with a handful of cards being the cream of the crop.  With full access, we will just see the same decks over and over, with little variance.  Creativity in this game blooms from working with limited resources.

wereotter

Make each legacy set craftable independently

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.

Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed.  Leave it as is.

You know, I've been saying this since this debate started and everyone keeps telling me I'm an idiot.  Nice to see I'm not alone.

That being said, I voted for the "allow targeting for a higher cost" because it seems like the best compromise.

I remember that, I think I was the only one that backed you up

That being said, a popular opinion doesn't mean an accurate one.

While I admit that in the short-term it would feel really nice to be able to easily acquire every card in this game that I want, but thinking about the long-term I realize that it's better for gameplay to not have every card.

Certain cards are distinguishably better than others, with a handful of cards being the cream of the crop.  With full access, we will just see the same decks over and over, with little variance.  Creativity in this game blooms from working with limited resources.

Your argument could be applied to the other sets in crafting. Why not just say all Standard sets are lumped together so people don't just cherry pick the most powerful cards for events?  Legacy events don't even offer much in the way of substantial rewards, and can either be beaten without many if any legacy cards (in the case of PvE events) or are completely unplayable without a collection of powerful, competitive cards. And if someone missed getting those legacy cards back when they were on offer, then playing legacy PvP events is basically content they're locked out of.

Denying people the ability to target a Kozilek or an Olivia or whatever else they want to play legacy events while thousands of others have these cards from when they sets were current just seems selfish, and ignores the problem that legacy WILL die if people can't get the cards to play in the events. 

Mburn7

Make each legacy set craftable independently at a higher cost or all together at the actual cost

wereotter said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.

Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed.  Leave it as is.

You know, I've been saying this since this debate started and everyone keeps telling me I'm an idiot.  Nice to see I'm not alone.

That being said, I voted for the "allow targeting for a higher cost" because it seems like the best compromise.

I remember that, I think I was the only one that backed you up

That being said, a popular opinion doesn't mean an accurate one.

While I admit that in the short-term it would feel really nice to be able to easily acquire every card in this game that I want, but thinking about the long-term I realize that it's better for gameplay to not have every card.

Certain cards are distinguishably better than others, with a handful of cards being the cream of the crop.  With full access, we will just see the same decks over and over, with little variance.  Creativity in this game blooms from working with limited resources.

Denying people the ability to target a Kozilek or an Olivia or whatever else they want to play legacy events while thousands of others have these cards from when they sets were current just seems selfish, and ignores the problem that legacy WILL die if people can't get the cards to play in the events. 

As long as the set rotation remains in place legacy will never die.  Hell, I use my Dovin Energize deck in legacy now, just to get the chance to play with it again.  And I don't even have the mythic energy cards!

Yes, i agree it is frustrating to run into a stream of Pigs and Olivias when you don't have them.  But nobody is quitting the game over that, and since you could never target Zendikar/Innistrad sets in crafting those op cards are still pretty rare.  I do get your point for the Kaladesh cards, though.  I wish I had enough orbs to grab a Baral or Heart before it rotated out.  

But you know what, that's just a part of the game now.  The fun is in the chase and all that.  Like I've said many times already, giving people access to specific legacy crafting would just give everyone the same easy-button cards that everyone hates to play against.  Personally, I think that would kill off legacy much faster than forcing people to deal with strong cards with less strong cards.

FindingHeart8

Leave it as is

wereotter said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.

Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed.  Leave it as is.

You know, I've been saying this since this debate started and everyone keeps telling me I'm an idiot.  Nice to see I'm not alone.

That being said, I voted for the "allow targeting for a higher cost" because it seems like the best compromise.

I remember that, I think I was the only one that backed you up

That being said, a popular opinion doesn't mean an accurate one.

While I admit that in the short-term it would feel really nice to be able to easily acquire every card in this game that I want, but thinking about the long-term I realize that it's better for gameplay to not have every card.

Certain cards are distinguishably better than others, with a handful of cards being the cream of the crop.  With full access, we will just see the same decks over and over, with little variance.  Creativity in this game blooms from working with limited resources.

Your argument could be applied to the other sets in crafting. Why not just say all Standard sets are lumped together so people don't just cherry pick the most powerful cards for events?  Legacy events don't even offer much in the way of substantial rewards, and can either be beaten without many if any legacy cards (in the case of PvE events) or are completely unplayable without a collection of powerful, competitive cards. And if someone missed getting those legacy cards back when they were on offer, then playing legacy PvP events is basically content they're locked out of.

Denying people the ability to target a Kozilek or an Olivia or whatever else they want to play legacy events while thousands of others have these cards from when they sets were current just seems selfish, and ignores the problem that legacy WILL die if people can't get the cards to play in the events. 

I wouldn't say the two are exactly the same.  Standard sets are significantly higher orb cost to craft for a reason, as those sets are where the majority of players are spending actual money on.  It makes sense to separate those and keep the orb cost high from a business standpoint.

I disagree with your claim here.  Allowing all players easy access to the most powerful cards in the set would be more likely to kill legacy.  Chasing cards and coalition prosperity is what keeps the majority of the mtgpq player base.  If everyone has the same cards, there's nothing to chase after, the rewards no longer matter.  Mtgpq is not nearly as complex as paper mtg.  If everyone has the same cards, most players will have the same decks (with little variance) and most matches will play out exactly the same way.  Not only will that make gameplay boring and frustrating, but it'll stagnate coalition advancement.

Yeah, it's frustrating to occasionally have to face an Olivia or a Piggy.  But the current legacy buffer helps insure that not every deck you face is running those dreaded cards.

wereotter

Make each legacy set craftable independently

Except like with paper magic, if you don't have the cards to be competitive and play, the format dies. That's what's happening with Legacy in paper magic thanks in part to the reserved list. The harder it is for people to get the cards to play in an event, the less inclined people will be to play those events. We've already seen threads complaining that participation in those events is low, and I will admit to not having played a legacy event (apart from the mid-week PvE events) since standard was introduced.

There are two reasons I haven't. One, I find legacy to be painfully frustrating because the power level is so high, decks are so similar, and one good cascade for the AI means basically game over. But the other reason being my own legacy collection is weak. So trying to face off against the high power decks with lower power basically ensures losses, making the event not even worth playing. Now, I bring that up because I've been in the game long enough to have a solid, collection of cards Kaladesh onwards, so I have good legacy cards, but now imagine someone who joined more recently trying to play in those events.

Packs of old sets aren't offered often as rewards (nor should they be really) and they're rarely offered in the vault, meaning anyone who wants to get cards to be competitive basically has to craft them. Now consider if they run an event where you have to summon a specific number of eldrazi or werewolves. A newer player doesn't have the ability to target Shadows over Innistrad or Eldritch Moon, or Zendikar to get the cards they need to even place in the event, and the cost being what it is, many players are unlikely to view bulk legacy crafting as a good investment.

The longer this persists, time will naturally erode out players from the legacy pool until few are left, and without people to get what they need to play and fill those slots, the events will die out.

James13

Current 3k cost, but in several combined blocks.  BFZ/OGW together.  SOI/EM together.  KLD/AER together.  AMK to be bundled with HOU and full 5k price until it is.

Mburn7

Make each legacy set craftable independently at a higher cost or all together at the actual cost

wereotter said:

There are two reasons I haven't. One, I find legacy to be painfully frustrating because the power level is so high, decks are so similar, and one good cascade for the AI means basically game over. But the other reason being my own legacy collection is weak. So trying to face off against the high power decks with lower power basically ensures losses, making the event not even worth playing. Now, I bring that up because I've been in the game long enough to have a solid, collection of cards Kaladesh onwards, so I have good legacy cards, but now imagine someone who joined more recently trying to play in those events.

Here's the thing:  Standard decks do just fine in legacy events.  I've run through legacy events with a standard deck with just 1 or 2 cards added in of a desired subtype and still gone perfect.  I play Training Grounds every day with standard decks and do just fine.  Having a strong standard collection (as you have) still allows you to be competitive in legacy.  You just need to plan ahead a bit.  Legacy usually is focused more on creature strategies than support combos because of how stupidly powerful some of the creatures are, so pack some extra removal (I usually run 3-6 kill spells depending on the event and node).

And besides, Origins is a really strong set that can be crafted cheaply and combos well with the current standard.  Shouldn't be too hard to put together a solid deck, even with a small legacy collection.

You're point about subtypes is good, though, since a lot of them are set-specific.  But there are a bunch of useable cards of required subtypes at uncommon, and you only really need 1 for a deck anyway.  So it isn't too hard to get.

Snappyturtle

Neutral option

I suggest making a higher cost pack of 5 cards. Rotates every 3-4 days to narrow a specific card. When one is acquired another card of the same rarity takes it's place. RNG is still there which is good for the devs. The 1/200 chance of getting a card as it is right now, is avoided.

FindingHeart8

Leave it as is

wereotter said:

Except like with paper magic, if you don't have the cards to be competitive and play, the format dies. That's what's happening with Legacy in paper magic thanks in part to the reserved list. The harder it is for people to get the cards to play in an event, the less inclined people will be to play those events. We've already seen threads complaining that participation in those events is low, and I will admit to not having played a legacy event (apart from the mid-week PvE events) since standard was introduced.

There are two reasons I haven't. One, I find legacy to be painfully frustrating because the power level is so high, decks are so similar, and one good cascade for the AI means basically game over. But the other reason being my own legacy collection is weak. So trying to face off against the high power decks with lower power basically ensures losses, making the event not even worth playing. Now, I bring that up because I've been in the game long enough to have a solid, collection of cards Kaladesh onwards, so I have good legacy cards, but now imagine someone who joined more recently trying to play in those events.

Packs of old sets aren't offered often as rewards (nor should they be really) and they're rarely offered in the vault, meaning anyone who wants to get cards to be competitive basically has to craft them. Now consider if they run an event where you have to summon a specific number of eldrazi or werewolves. A newer player doesn't have the ability to target Shadows over Innistrad or Eldritch Moon, or Zendikar to get the cards they need to even place in the event, and the cost being what it is, many players are unlikely to view bulk legacy crafting as a good investment.

The longer this persists, time will naturally erode out players from the legacy pool until few are left, and without people to get what they need to play and fill those slots, the events will die out.

I see what you're saying.

An easy solution to this would be to either offer legacy booster packs for crystal purchase during related events or just to not have a rotation for pack purchasing (meaning, if you had the crystals, you could get a pack from any set at any time).  I always thought it was silly to have pack rotation anyways.

I played through Zendikar and Innistrad, packed Deploy 3 times (twice during Zendikar and once right after Amonkhet if memory serves), packed Piggy twice in that time period, HuF 3 times now from packs (once from the 1-card free booster).  I know you can get these cards outside of Booster Crafting.

To me, Booster Crafting has always been a privilege, not a right.  I want beginning players to have the resources they need to hit the ground running (ex: easy access to about ~500 spare crystals and the Origins walkers) and access to relevant card sets (ex: able to purchase packs from card sets relevant to current events) but you still have to climb the mountain to get the top cards.  Easy access to the best cards in the game sounds closer to a short-cut, a helicopter ride to the top of the mountain with minor turbulence.

DumasAG

Make each legacy set craftable independently

Just realized there isn't an option in the poll which I think might serve as good neutral ground for some of the differing points of view in this thread. Keep legacy crafting as is, but significantly reduce the cost of mythics. There's still a chase, and it won't "flood the market" with high-end legacy cards, but buying up legacy mythics at 800-1000 orbs a pop is significantly more palatable. I've been dropping orbs like crazy on legacy rares because there aren't many I don't have (down to 12), I'm trying to get Bruna, and most importantly because 600 seems like a decent price point that I can regularly achieve every few days to roll the dice on a new rare. If mythics were 800, I'd be pretty happy rolling the dice, because that's a great price point no matter what mythic you get (of course, 800 seems a little high for a lot of masterpieces, but that's irrelevant/another thread).

wereotter

Make each legacy set craftable independently

Mburn7 said:

You're point about subtypes is good, though, since a lot of them are set-specific.  But there are a bunch of useable cards of required subtypes at uncommon, and you only really need 1 for a deck anyway.  So it isn't too hard to get.

To that point, let's assume I'm a newer player again and I'm trying to get even one eldrazi to do as you suggest. With over 300 uncommons in legacy, trying to get 1 of 12 werewolves means you only have a 4% chance of getting a usable card. However if that same player could target SOI, it's now 7 werewolves of 58 cards tripling your odds of getting a card you're after.

A similar problem exists with other objectives, as I'm sure you're aware, when it comes to things like "energize x gems" even in some of the PvE events that without the Kaladesh cards, or the Kaladesh planeswalkers, you can't meet. I think giving players access to the tools they need to meet the expectations of an event shouldn't be a hurdle to jump through, but something you can access without too much difficulty. Especially if you consider the newer you are, the fewer duplicates you're likely to pull, and the fewer duplicates, the fewer orbs, which means even fewer chances to try for the cards you need.

Mburn7

Make each legacy set craftable independently at a higher cost or all together at the actual cost

wereotter said:

Mburn7 said:

You're point about subtypes is good, though, since a lot of them are set-specific.  But there are a bunch of useable cards of required subtypes at uncommon, and you only really need 1 for a deck anyway.  So it isn't too hard to get.

To that point, let's assume I'm a newer player again and I'm trying to get even one eldrazi to do as you suggest. With over 300 uncommons in legacy, trying to get 1 of 12 werewolves means you only have a 4% chance of getting a usable card. However if that same player could target SOI, it's now 7 werewolves of 58 cards tripling your odds of getting a card you're after.

A similar problem exists with other objectives, as I'm sure you're aware, when it comes to things like "energize x gems" even in some of the PvE events that without the Kaladesh cards, or the Kaladesh planeswalkers, you can't meet. I think giving players access to the tools they need to meet the expectations of an event shouldn't be a hurdle to jump through, but something you can access without too much difficulty. Especially if you consider the newer you are, the fewer duplicates you're likely to pull, and the fewer duplicates, the fewer orbs, which means even fewer chances to try for the cards you need.

Yeah, but the legacy sets still show up in the vault rotation.  Buying a single pack (or a super pack) isn't too difficult, and should contain at least 1 event-ready common or uncommon.  And all you need is 1 or 2, so its just a 1 time pull.

I will admit, I haven't had to worry about not having subtypes for an event since the original Terrors (and even then I had just enough of each card to make it work), so my ideas may be a bit elitist.  But I really don't think its super hard to get a decent uncommon for an event, especially now that the 3 card free pack is back.  Sure it may take a little bit, but that's fair.  It took a bit to get the cards when they came out too.

FindingHeart8

Leave it as is

Mburn7 said:

wereotter said:

Mburn7 said:

You're point about subtypes is good, though, since a lot of them are set-specific.  But there are a bunch of useable cards of required subtypes at uncommon, and you only really need 1 for a deck anyway.  So it isn't too hard to get.

To that point, let's assume I'm a newer player again and I'm trying to get even one eldrazi to do as you suggest. With over 300 uncommons in legacy, trying to get 1 of 12 werewolves means you only have a 4% chance of getting a usable card. However if that same player could target SOI, it's now 7 werewolves of 58 cards tripling your odds of getting a card you're after.

A similar problem exists with other objectives, as I'm sure you're aware, when it comes to things like "energize x gems" even in some of the PvE events that without the Kaladesh cards, or the Kaladesh planeswalkers, you can't meet. I think giving players access to the tools they need to meet the expectations of an event shouldn't be a hurdle to jump through, but something you can access without too much difficulty. Especially if you consider the newer you are, the fewer duplicates you're likely to pull, and the fewer duplicates, the fewer orbs, which means even fewer chances to try for the cards you need.

Yeah, but the legacy sets still show up in the vault rotation.  Buying a single pack (or a super pack) isn't too difficult, and should contain at least 1 event-ready common or uncommon.  And all you need is 1 or 2, so its just a 1 time pull.

I will admit, I haven't had to worry about not having subtypes for an event since the original Terrors (and even then I had just enough of each card to make it work), so my ideas may be a bit elitist.  But I really don't think its super hard to get a decent uncommon for an event, especially now that the 3 card free pack is back.  Sure it may take a little bit, but that's fair.  It took a bit to get the cards when they came out too.

most of these events also offer 1 pack in the single-player early progress reward, so while you may not get the objectives the first time playing through, you'll be able to acquire cards to help you the next time.

wereotter

Make each legacy set craftable independently

Mburn7 said:

wereotter said:

Mburn7 said:

You're point about subtypes is good, though, since a lot of them are set-specific.  But there are a bunch of useable cards of required subtypes at uncommon, and you only really need 1 for a deck anyway.  So it isn't too hard to get.

To that point, let's assume I'm a newer player again and I'm trying to get even one eldrazi to do as you suggest. With over 300 uncommons in legacy, trying to get 1 of 12 werewolves means you only have a 4% chance of getting a usable card. However if that same player could target SOI, it's now 7 werewolves of 58 cards tripling your odds of getting a card you're after.

A similar problem exists with other objectives, as I'm sure you're aware, when it comes to things like "energize x gems" even in some of the PvE events that without the Kaladesh cards, or the Kaladesh planeswalkers, you can't meet. I think giving players access to the tools they need to meet the expectations of an event shouldn't be a hurdle to jump through, but something you can access without too much difficulty. Especially if you consider the newer you are, the fewer duplicates you're likely to pull, and the fewer duplicates, the fewer orbs, which means even fewer chances to try for the cards you need.

Yeah, but the legacy sets still show up in the vault rotation.  Buying a single pack (or a super pack) isn't too difficult, and should contain at least 1 event-ready common or uncommon.  And all you need is 1 or 2, so its just a 1 time pull.

I will admit, I haven't had to worry about not having subtypes for an event since the original Terrors (and even then I had just enough of each card to make it work), so my ideas may be a bit elitist.  But I really don't think its super hard to get a decent uncommon for an event, especially now that the 3 card free pack is back.  Sure it may take a little bit, but that's fair.  It took a bit to get the cards when they came out too.

The free packs have only standard-legal cards. It's been that way for a while now. So pulling the uncommons or commons you need for legacy events won't come from those packs. That means you either have to spend crystals on legacy packs, which isn't a good investment for most players, or you have to craft the card using orbs, also not a good way to spend orbs for newer players.