khurram said: Should have been an option like "Just fricking credit the legacy cards to everyone" to make the poll complete.
FindingHeart8 said: easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed. Leave it as is.
Mburn7 said: FindingHeart8 said: easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed. Leave it as is. You know, I've been saying this since this debate started and everyone keeps telling me I'm an idiot. Nice to see I'm not alone.That being said, I voted for the "allow targeting for a higher cost" because it seems like the best compromise.
FindingHeart8 said: Mburn7 said: FindingHeart8 said: easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed. Leave it as is. You know, I've been saying this since this debate started and everyone keeps telling me I'm an idiot. Nice to see I'm not alone.That being said, I voted for the "allow targeting for a higher cost" because it seems like the best compromise. I remember that, I think I was the only one that backed you up That being said, a popular opinion doesn't mean an accurate one.While I admit that in the short-term it would feel really nice to be able to easily acquire every card in this game that I want, but thinking about the long-term I realize that it's better for gameplay to not have every card.Certain cards are distinguishably better than others, with a handful of cards being the cream of the crop. With full access, we will just see the same decks over and over, with little variance. Creativity in this game blooms from working with limited resources.
wereotter said: FindingHeart8 said: Mburn7 said: FindingHeart8 said: easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed. Leave it as is. You know, I've been saying this since this debate started and everyone keeps telling me I'm an idiot. Nice to see I'm not alone.That being said, I voted for the "allow targeting for a higher cost" because it seems like the best compromise. I remember that, I think I was the only one that backed you up That being said, a popular opinion doesn't mean an accurate one.While I admit that in the short-term it would feel really nice to be able to easily acquire every card in this game that I want, but thinking about the long-term I realize that it's better for gameplay to not have every card.Certain cards are distinguishably better than others, with a handful of cards being the cream of the crop. With full access, we will just see the same decks over and over, with little variance. Creativity in this game blooms from working with limited resources.Denying people the ability to target a Kozilek or an Olivia or whatever else they want to play legacy events while thousands of others have these cards from when they sets were current just seems selfish, and ignores the problem that legacy WILL die if people can't get the cards to play in the events.
wereotter said: FindingHeart8 said: Mburn7 said: FindingHeart8 said: easy access to select sets will just create more of the overpowered decks people are complaining about facing already; which will then lead to more debates on nerfing all of those cards because now they aren't just overpowered...but now everybody has them.Having the overpowered cards buried in a pile of mediocre mythics is a buffer to the issues we'll be complaining about in a month or two if that buffer is removed. Leave it as is. You know, I've been saying this since this debate started and everyone keeps telling me I'm an idiot. Nice to see I'm not alone.That being said, I voted for the "allow targeting for a higher cost" because it seems like the best compromise. I remember that, I think I was the only one that backed you up That being said, a popular opinion doesn't mean an accurate one.While I admit that in the short-term it would feel really nice to be able to easily acquire every card in this game that I want, but thinking about the long-term I realize that it's better for gameplay to not have every card.Certain cards are distinguishably better than others, with a handful of cards being the cream of the crop. With full access, we will just see the same decks over and over, with little variance. Creativity in this game blooms from working with limited resources. Your argument could be applied to the other sets in crafting. Why not just say all Standard sets are lumped together so people don't just cherry pick the most powerful cards for events? Legacy events don't even offer much in the way of substantial rewards, and can either be beaten without many if any legacy cards (in the case of PvE events) or are completely unplayable without a collection of powerful, competitive cards. And if someone missed getting those legacy cards back when they were on offer, then playing legacy PvP events is basically content they're locked out of.Denying people the ability to target a Kozilek or an Olivia or whatever else they want to play legacy events while thousands of others have these cards from when they sets were current just seems selfish, and ignores the problem that legacy WILL die if people can't get the cards to play in the events.
wereotter said:There are two reasons I haven't. One, I find legacy to be painfully frustrating because the power level is so high, decks are so similar, and one good cascade for the AI means basically game over. But the other reason being my own legacy collection is weak. So trying to face off against the high power decks with lower power basically ensures losses, making the event not even worth playing. Now, I bring that up because I've been in the game long enough to have a solid, collection of cards Kaladesh onwards, so I have good legacy cards, but now imagine someone who joined more recently trying to play in those events.
wereotter said: Except like with paper magic, if you don't have the cards to be competitive and play, the format dies. That's what's happening with Legacy in paper magic thanks in part to the reserved list. The harder it is for people to get the cards to play in an event, the less inclined people will be to play those events. We've already seen threads complaining that participation in those events is low, and I will admit to not having played a legacy event (apart from the mid-week PvE events) since standard was introduced.There are two reasons I haven't. One, I find legacy to be painfully frustrating because the power level is so high, decks are so similar, and one good cascade for the AI means basically game over. But the other reason being my own legacy collection is weak. So trying to face off against the high power decks with lower power basically ensures losses, making the event not even worth playing. Now, I bring that up because I've been in the game long enough to have a solid, collection of cards Kaladesh onwards, so I have good legacy cards, but now imagine someone who joined more recently trying to play in those events.Packs of old sets aren't offered often as rewards (nor should they be really) and they're rarely offered in the vault, meaning anyone who wants to get cards to be competitive basically has to craft them. Now consider if they run an event where you have to summon a specific number of eldrazi or werewolves. A newer player doesn't have the ability to target Shadows over Innistrad or Eldritch Moon, or Zendikar to get the cards they need to even place in the event, and the cost being what it is, many players are unlikely to view bulk legacy crafting as a good investment.The longer this persists, time will naturally erode out players from the legacy pool until few are left, and without people to get what they need to play and fill those slots, the events will die out.
Mburn7 said:You're point about subtypes is good, though, since a lot of them are set-specific. But there are a bunch of useable cards of required subtypes at uncommon, and you only really need 1 for a deck anyway. So it isn't too hard to get.
wereotter said: Mburn7 said:You're point about subtypes is good, though, since a lot of them are set-specific. But there are a bunch of useable cards of required subtypes at uncommon, and you only really need 1 for a deck anyway. So it isn't too hard to get. To that point, let's assume I'm a newer player again and I'm trying to get even one eldrazi to do as you suggest. With over 300 uncommons in legacy, trying to get 1 of 12 werewolves means you only have a 4% chance of getting a usable card. However if that same player could target SOI, it's now 7 werewolves of 58 cards tripling your odds of getting a card you're after.A similar problem exists with other objectives, as I'm sure you're aware, when it comes to things like "energize x gems" even in some of the PvE events that without the Kaladesh cards, or the Kaladesh planeswalkers, you can't meet. I think giving players access to the tools they need to meet the expectations of an event shouldn't be a hurdle to jump through, but something you can access without too much difficulty. Especially if you consider the newer you are, the fewer duplicates you're likely to pull, and the fewer duplicates, the fewer orbs, which means even fewer chances to try for the cards you need.
Mburn7 said: wereotter said: Mburn7 said:You're point about subtypes is good, though, since a lot of them are set-specific. But there are a bunch of useable cards of required subtypes at uncommon, and you only really need 1 for a deck anyway. So it isn't too hard to get. To that point, let's assume I'm a newer player again and I'm trying to get even one eldrazi to do as you suggest. With over 300 uncommons in legacy, trying to get 1 of 12 werewolves means you only have a 4% chance of getting a usable card. However if that same player could target SOI, it's now 7 werewolves of 58 cards tripling your odds of getting a card you're after.A similar problem exists with other objectives, as I'm sure you're aware, when it comes to things like "energize x gems" even in some of the PvE events that without the Kaladesh cards, or the Kaladesh planeswalkers, you can't meet. I think giving players access to the tools they need to meet the expectations of an event shouldn't be a hurdle to jump through, but something you can access without too much difficulty. Especially if you consider the newer you are, the fewer duplicates you're likely to pull, and the fewer duplicates, the fewer orbs, which means even fewer chances to try for the cards you need. Yeah, but the legacy sets still show up in the vault rotation. Buying a single pack (or a super pack) isn't too difficult, and should contain at least 1 event-ready common or uncommon. And all you need is 1 or 2, so its just a 1 time pull.I will admit, I haven't had to worry about not having subtypes for an event since the original Terrors (and even then I had just enough of each card to make it work), so my ideas may be a bit elitist. But I really don't think its super hard to get a decent uncommon for an event, especially now that the 3 card free pack is back. Sure it may take a little bit, but that's fair. It took a bit to get the cards when they came out too.