Balance out Gambit

Jarvind

Daredevil217 said:

Jarvind said:

The problem isn't just that he's overused. Panther/Thanos was overused, but I don't recall a whole lot of actual cries for a nerf, except maybe early on.

I don’t know how long you’ve been playing, but there were absolutely cries for a nerf. I remember a huge thread about the game becoming Marvel Tapping Quest because of how fast he cleared nodes and how ridiculously easy he made the game. Grocket as well got plenty of calls for a nerf for the longest time and they are STILL the meta in the 4* tier today.  Over time, the cries died down. Gambit’s have as well though they aren’t completely gone as evidenced by his thread. 

I was referring specifically to PVP, here. Sorry if that wasn't clear. You're right that there were plenty of cries for a nerf due to how trivial he made, and still makes, PVE grinds. I personally argued against it at the time, on the basis that while he does confer a huge PVE advantage, the relative ease of beating him in PVP (he's basically just a damage sponge) balanced that out. The switch to clearance-based scaling also made him less of an absolute necessity as you no longer need him to eat through massive enemy HP pools; you can just drop a level without sacrificing too much loot. Gambit, on the other hand, trivializes virtually everything, which is why I don't hold the same position on him.

Daredevil217

ZeroKarma said:

Daredevil217 said:

Gold_Dragon said:

You wanna know the MAIN reason people are (still) calling for a nerf of Gambit? It’s because they’re still not over OML nerf. And not because he got nerfed. But the REASONING of it as well. So now, if a team/character gets too much use, the call for nerf goes out. 

Whoever is flagging every one of this guy’s posts as spam needs to quit. Just because you disagree, it does not mean he should be flagged. I hate when people abuse this system and I see it way too often for my liking.

Jarvind said:

The problem isn't just that he's overused. Panther/Thanos was overused, but I don't recall a whole lot of actual cries for a nerf, except maybe early on.

I don’t know how long you’ve been playing, but there were absolutely cries for a nerf. I remember a huge thread about the game becoming Marvel Tapping Quest because of how fast he cleared nodes and how ridiculously easy he made the game. Grocket as well got plenty of calls for a nerf for the longest time and they are STILL the meta in the 4* tier today.  Over time, the cries died down. Gambit’s have as well though they aren’t completely gone as evidenced by his thread. 

He likely got flagged because people were giving him reasoned discussion points on the need for a Gambit nerf and he basically called them whiny babies that aren't over OML's nerf. They're completely different beasts and most of us are well aware of that. 

As people have stated over and over, Panthos was never unbeatable. I found the best kryptonite for that team was Bolt/Surfer, an old school solution to the problem that was nearly always successful even when fighting Panthos at higher levels. You could try that team against Gamthor/Thorbit. Please do, and let me know how many times you win. The same honestly goes for Panthos against that duo. It gets melted pretty quickly, even if you get Panther in front of every red blast. 

The best team that I found was Strange and Thanos, because they could reliably shut down Gambit's powers with Infinite Power and Strange stun. It consumes a lot of health packs, is slow, and is guaranteed to get you slaughtered on defense. That's problematic. 

Gambit is bad for the game, has been for a long time, but the response by the playerbase of a potential nerf is feared by the decision makers after what happened with OML, and given the amount of money people poured into getting him champed and adding levels. He has effectively stalled out the game and forced you to view new characters by two specific criteria:

1. Does the character rely on purple and red a la IW Captain America? If yes, please place directly in garbage bin. 

2. Does the character mesh well with Gambit? If no, please place directly in garbage bin. 

There isn't much else to be said about that. I was looking at Okoye and thinking how much fun she would be with 5* Peter Parker, triggering her black multiple times with his green, only to realize that multi-colored combos are exceptionally difficult against a character that passively accelerates himself AND steals AP that you might need for said combo. The more moving pieces there are and the longer the setup, the more likely it just won't make a dent in the meta. THAT IS NOT GOOD. It's stale as all get-out. 

I don’t disagree with what you write as a whole, but there’s aspects I disagree with. 

[Keep in mind the only points I originally made was that dude did not deserve to have all his posts flagged and people have called for nerfs since the dawn of time]

1) Nowhere in what I quoted did he write or even elude to whiny babies. Even if he alluded to it once, every one of his posts were flagged and that’s just spamming the system and creating more work for mods. 

2) Is Gambit truly unbeatable without your own Gambit? The flagged poster in question listed several teams he has been successful with and I’ve seen other posters assert that you don’t need Gambit to be successful as well. Now of course these posters aren’t screaming from the top of their lungs in every post, but they’re out there. When people use the term “unbeatable” I think it reads as hyperbole and turns a lot of people off. He’s the best character in one half of the game (PVP). I think that’s a more fair assessment more grounded in reality than saying “he’s unbeatable”. 

3) It’s my understanding that Gambit does not steal AP (he destroys it). If he stole it then he would be way more powerful than he actually is. Understanding how a character works is important when assessing them- especially in the context of potential rebalancing.

4) I doubt the developers are worried about our feelings when it comes to a potential nerf. They have made bad decision after bad decision recently- I mean stuff that’s almost universally reviled (hello supports rollout!). And yet they keep trucking along giving us company lines and minimal info after. I mean they would like NOT to have a forum uprising, sure. But that won’t stop them from implementing a decision. 

ZeroKarma

I won't quote to avoid the massive wall of text. Leaving the spamming and flagging behind since it muddies the issue, we can look at the points brought up as easy solutions to Gambit. 

1. Hawkeye combo - In this case, you have to wait for Gambit to use his purple to hopefully stun him before he casts another purple. Yes, it can work, though you will often still find your cd removed and dead. If this is a Coulhawk combo then you are also going to get torn a new one on defense. 

2. Captain America Infinity War - You are fighting for the same colors as the Gambit team, although he can get them faster than you can. Also, you can use Cap purple to stop Gambit red, which works until Gambit uses his purple to stop your purple, spamming red....you're dead. Also, CA doesn't do well on defense since the AI doesn't know how to use his purple.

3. Archangel - Really? 550 Archangel's aren't scary if you have a 450 Gambit. 

If the argument is that there are other teams that can beat Gambit without Gambit, then that of course is true. However, I think there's more to it than that, including the fact that a non-Gambit team trying to climb on Gambit teams is going to get destroyed. I have ally mates that missed on Gambit. Trust me, life is not easy on the road to progression. And for the new people starting up that won't get a sniff of him until he enters a special store it will be even worse. 

CharlieCroker

I'm don't really agree with flagging posts as spam/abuse as a general rule, it's normally better to ignore them - don't feed the trolls.  But....

1) Search for other posts and you'll see why someone felt the need to flag anything this person has posted.  Posting "Gambit is fine" without qualification is spam as far as I'm concerned (as would be nerf Gambit without elaborating on the comment).

2) I don't get why the occasional post defending Gambit gets more credence than the numerous posts over nearly 9 months (?) outlining why he is OP.  Yes he can be beaten by other teams, but not with reliability, without boosts, or without leaving yourself open to multiple attacks by virtue of you leaving a non-Gambit team out on defence.  He is the meta in PVP and is way better than anyone else, even a 50% Thor.  Together their effectiveness on offense is ridiculously strong, especially if Gambit tanks red (needs to be ~15 levels higher than Thor).

3) Let's be fair, he effectively steals two random ap and converts it to +2 red & +2 purple.  That's a 6ap swing EVERY turn without any real drawback (unlike say Hood in 3* land who has conditional ap theft and very low health for his tier).

4) They do what they think is best for business.  I think they've made some awful decisions as of late and people are retiring from the higher tiers at an every increasing rate as a consequence.  I can only hope for the sake of the game and friends still playing it, that engagement (and spending) is up at lower tiers at a commensurate rate.

As to the post (from Gold_Troll or whatever) where it was claimed Surfer is often seen with Gambit in PvP I had to laugh out loud.  Sure it's viable but it's hardly ever seen as the alternatives (DD, Thor, Bolt, JJ, Thanos, Okoye, boosted 4* etc) are so much better and more importantly quicker.  I'm honestly not sure I've ever seen the combo outside Shield Sim - maybe some use it for climbing in the early hours before I've joined events?

Gold_Dragon

 Im not gonna explain myself for everything I’ve said over and over. Once is enough. There are too many posts complaining about Gambit, who I simply do not fear, in any way/shape or form except with BB. All other Gambit teams are simply targets for me to hit. 

For all the complaining about him, maybe I’m just not scared. Maybe I just know how to play the game in different ways and think outside the box. Idk. But to me Gambit is just another good character in a game of good characters. He’s too limited by the AI for me to fear. 

But hey, I’m not some MPQ god or anything. Apparently, people want/need answers. Well ok. Let’s run them all down......

[quote]Yes he can be beaten by other teams, but not with reliability, without boosts, or without leaving yourself open to multiple attacks by virtue of you leaving a non-Gambit team out on defence. [/quote]

All of these things shouldn’t be problems. 

1) I can beat him reliably (unless vs BB/Gambit. As I’ve said, I’ve personally had problems enough that it’s not worth the headache) with the teams I already listed and 2) never use boosts in SS. Only for a win that’s quicker than usual in versus tourney to get to 900. As for 3) being open with a non-gambit team, that’s not even enough of a problem to list (making me wonder why you did). You can just put Gambit in and wreck another team. Since Gambit is so “dominating”, shouldn’t you be able to just wipe another team out in record time and D up?

Gold_Dragon

ZeroKarma said:

1. Hawkeye combo - In this case, you have to wait for Gambit to use his purple to hopefully stun him before he casts another purple. Yes, it can work, though you will often still find your cd removed and dead. If this is a Coulhawk combo then you are also going to get torn a new one on defense. [/quote]

2. Captain America Infinity War - You are fighting for the same colors as the Gambit team, although he can get them faster than you can. Also, you can use Cap purple to stop Gambit red, which works until Gambit uses his purple to stop your purple, spamming red....you're dead. Also, CA doesn't do well on defense since the AI doesn't know how to use his purple.

3. Archangel - Really? 550 Archangel's aren't scary if you have a 450 Gambit. 

If the argument is that there are other teams that can beat Gambit without Gambit, then that of course is true. However, I think there's more to it than that, including the fact that a non-Gambit team trying to climb on Gambit teams is going to get destroyed. I have ally mates that missed on Gambit. Trust me, life is not easy on the road to progression. And for the new people starting up that won't get a sniff of him until he enters a special store it will be even worse. 

#1 of course you wait for Gambit to fire his purple. Not a big deal at all. 9/10 gambits are 3/5/5 so (as I already said) just wait, set off the CDs and punish. It’s gonna take him getting to 11/12 more to fire it again. It’s pretty much gonna take a miracle (not that it can’t happen because as we all know, RNG hates us) for him to fire off another purple before my CDs (most importantly, the 4 turn stun) hits him and I begin to lay waste to him and the rest of his team. 

#2 with Half/life thor, my red goes just as fast as Gambits black generates its purple and red (and many times, faster). Also, it takes 2 purple matches to completely shut gambit’s red or purple down. But you don’t fire it immediately. You wait until Gambit gets near firing range, THEN make him start over. Cap with half-life thor makes life easy vs Gambit because Thor is destroying all the green/red/yellow and usually, there’s purple all over. Getting 2 MWaC’s to fire off isn’t difficult at all. And you’re STILL getting green/red/yellow every turn. So it won’t take long to bust Gambit with 2 powers (maybe 3, sometimes it depends of course) before you get hit with 2 of Gambits red or he wipes out your purple with his. I run Cap/Thor/GRRR. My Cap isn’t even champed, but it’s not a pain to run them vs Gambit teams without B.B. 

as for defense...... again, if you’re really THAT worried about not having a Gambit team on defense, put him in, wipe a team out, move on. Or even put up a shield. If you’re at that 5* lvl, you’re gonna have more HP then you know what to do with anyway. It’s all about the climb to max. 

Im not gonna pretend it sucks for those that missed out on Gambit because he’s a good character. But just because he and B.B. are the meta doesn’t mean he needs another nerf. There will ALWAYS be oppressive teams in this game on defense. There seems to be this thought that if you nerf Gambit, more varied teams will open up. These people couldn’t be more wrong. All it’s going to do, is make the players gravitate to another oppressive team and you’ll then see that team everywhere. And I promise you, the crying to nerf whatever that is, will start right back up. 

ZeroKarma

Gold_Dragon said:

ZeroKarma said:

1. Hawkeye combo - In this case, you have to wait for Gambit to use his purple to hopefully stun him before he casts another purple. Yes, it can work, though you will often still find your cd removed and dead. If this is a Coulhawk combo then you are also going to get torn a new one on defense. [/quote]

2. Captain America Infinity War - You are fighting for the same colors as the Gambit team, although he can get them faster than you can. Also, you can use Cap purple to stop Gambit red, which works until Gambit uses his purple to stop your purple, spamming red....you're dead. Also, CA doesn't do well on defense since the AI doesn't know how to use his purple.

3. Archangel - Really? 550 Archangel's aren't scary if you have a 450 Gambit. 

If the argument is that there are other teams that can beat Gambit without Gambit, then that of course is true. However, I think there's more to it than that, including the fact that a non-Gambit team trying to climb on Gambit teams is going to get destroyed. I have ally mates that missed on Gambit. Trust me, life is not easy on the road to progression. And for the new people starting up that won't get a sniff of him until he enters a special store it will be even worse. 

#1 of course you wait for Gambit to fire his purple. Not a big deal at all. 9/10 gambits are 3/5/5 so (as I already said) just wait, set off the CDs and punish. It’s gonna take him getting to 11/12 more to fire it again. It’s pretty much gonna take a miracle (not that it can’t happen because as we all know, RNG hates us) for him to fire off another purple before my CDs (most importantly, the 4 turn stun) hits him and I begin to lay waste to him and the rest of his team. 

#2 with Half/life thor, my red goes just as fast as Gambits black generates its purple and red (and many times, faster). Also, it takes 2 purple matches to completely shut gambit’s red or purple down. But you don’t fire it immediately. You wait until Gambit gets near firing range, THEN make him start over. Cap with half-life thor makes life easy vs Gambit because Thor is destroying all the green/red/yellow and usually, there’s purple all over. Getting 2 MWaC’s to fire off isn’t difficult at all. And you’re STILL getting green/red/yellow every turn. So it won’t take long to bust Gambit with 2 powers (maybe 3, sometimes it depends of course) before you get hit with 2 of Gambits red or he wipes out your purple with his. I run Cap/Thor/GRRR. My Cap isn’t even champed, but it’s not a pain to run them vs Gambit teams without B.B. 

as for defense...... again, if you’re really THAT worried about not having a Gambit team on defense, put him in, wipe a team out, move on. Or even put up a shield. If you’re at that 5* lvl, you’re gonna have more HP then you know what to do with anyway. It’s all about the climb to max. 

Im not gonna pretend it sucks for those that missed out on Gambit because he’s a good character. But just because he and B.B. are the meta doesn’t mean he needs another nerf. There will ALWAYS be oppressive teams in this game on defense. There seems to be this thought that if you nerf Gambit, more varied teams will open up. These people couldn’t be more wrong. All it’s going to do, is make the players gravitate to another oppressive team and you’ll then see that team everywhere. And I promise you, the crying to nerf whatever that is, will start right back up. 

I’ll have to give Cap Thor a try. I can state with some confidence that no one in S3 or S4 has ever hit me withj that combo. It’s also one that I would target regularly in favor of Gambit teams.

i do know that I would run 4* teams very frequently in PvP minus Gambit. A rebalance of him would definitely lead to high variation in the teams that I run.

Milk Jugz

I'm not arguing against changing Gambit, I think his black power is ridiculous. Make it 6 ap and have it create red, purple, and black charged tiles. Remove the restriction on allies powers. Change nothing else. Now he's fixed to the board again.

As far as not being able to compete without him, that I completely disagree with. I have Gambit champed, but I prefer to run DD/Thor. I have no issues taking out Gambit teams with that combo. I consistently finish t5 in my slice.

enigo me

my suggestion for fixing gambit is 1. take away ap destroy from his black. 2 red 2 purple ap for free is good enough.   2. either make red 9 ap cost OR not gain ap from destroyed tiles.   i think this will keep him good but not WAY better than everyone else....... where is the thread on how to fix banner?

alaeth

Honestly, I think the biggest issue with Gambit is the glut in the market of him. So many people have him!

A ton of people were hoarding tokens and CP (myself included) because two of the three previous 5s in Latest were very underwhelming (Star-lord, Doc Oc). Couple that with "CP-gate" and you have a huge glut of CP, and nothing to spend it on... then comes Gambit...

Problem #1 - his debut vault comes with two of the oldest 5s in the game (OML & Phoenix), making it appealing to almost everyone. Personally, I dropped 2100CP into the vault, and got both OML and Phoenix championed, and Gambit well on his way.

Problem #2 - stacked Latest Legends characters - with the departure of Ock, and Thor following Gambit into Latest, you have a stacked 3-pack of very good 5s:
Thor, Daredevil, and Gambit
All three are above average 5s... And the VALUE is not to be overlooked.  I opened a whopping 245 tokens to finish all three on the day Thor entered.



Fixing Gambit isn't the issue...

Fix hoarding.

It is so simple, and yet 4+ years into the game we still don't have it.


Colourless tokens for 5* characters.


The reason I hoard is the fear of cover "rot".  Having the rarest of the rare characters USELESS, and having no way to fix it.

Colourless tokens would change my spend behavior and correct the problem in the future.

As for Gambit nerf...

My opinion is his black should be either or...  deny AP OR generate AP.  Having it do both means I MUST use him versus other Gambits... and that sucks, because Okoye looked good up until she was fixed in R154.

I want to use other Championed 5s, but I've played enough matches to know that Gambit vGambit is safest, most health-pack efficient, and fastest, which in top end PvP is all that matters...

alaeth

@Gold_Dragon
I'm not denying that other teams CAN defeat Gambit... however... it comes at a cost (typically health).

If you're climbing from zero in PvP, aiming for a shield point (I try to aim for 900 or 1k), you need to be health-pack and resource efficient.

The fact remains, with a 6AP swing EVERY TURN, Gambit allows for fast, safe, efficient climbing.

Daredevil217

alaeth said:

I want to use other Championed 5s, but I've played enough matches to know that Gambit vGambit is safest, most health-pack efficient, and fastest, which in top end PvP is all that matters...

And this is one of the big problems. You can use other 5s, and choose not to. Nerf Gambit and people will gravitate to the next most efficient, fastest, safest character. 

It’s annoying seeing all the sheep flock to Grocket/Gamora/Medusa in sim. I wish people would play other combos. But I can only control what I play and haven’t touched that team in forever. 

alaeth said:

@Gold_Dragon
I'm not denying that other teams CAN defeat Gambit... however... it comes at a cost (typically health).

If you're climbing from zero in PvP, aiming for a shield point (I try to aim for 900 or 1k), you need to be health-pack and resource efficient.

The fact remains, with a 6AP swing EVERY TURN, Gambit allows for fast, safe, efficient climbing.

This is Grocket in the 4* tier. The team can be beaten. But your team is going to eat a ton of health packs doing so. They are the best team on defense because of the health pack scare and the best on offense due to speed. Those that missed out on the unholy trio can bonus hero them and cover them in just under 900 pulls. So going forward if you missed out you are out of luck, similar to Gambit. They are easily best in tier. And that is true in both PVE and PVP. Not just PVP where Gambit reigns (Thor/Chavez and Thanos are better faster more efficient in PVE). Should Grocket/Gamora/Medusa be nerfed?

alaeth

@Daredevil217
perfectly summarized.

As @ZeroKarma stated further up, the "meta" is real.  As long as the Best, Fastest, Most efficient team is "Gambit + ???" - he needs to be tweaked.  Start small, make one small change, see if the Meta shifts.  Unfortuantely, since a lot of us have 475+ Gambits, it will take a LONG while for a new 5 to be strong enough to compete.  But like Zero said, how the tinekitty should a 450 Gambit be able to easily take out a 550 ... anything!?!?

Every new character release should change the landscape of top end... but as it stands (and especially after R154 went live), it's all Gambit, all the time.

The game (both Story and PvP) is all about speed.  I would Love to play more creating teams.  But the fact of the matter is, if I want to clear optimally for top placement (Story mode), I have to be fast... faster than YOU.  For PvP, i need to hit your team and get shielded back up to preserve my points FAST.

Speed is EVERYTHING in the top end... that's why we were so happy with animations being optional.

But it's taking away so much from the game.

I haven't even seen Okoye's animations, the dialog from the Guardians event... never read it.


The best counter for this in Story mode is boss events.  And maybe that's why those events are my favorite to play.


There is no counter for raw speed in PvP, and I'm not sure there ever will be.

As long as Gambit is FASTER that any other 5* I have to beat the other team, that's who I will use.

It's that simple.


It's hard to express how frustrating it is. No-one wants to see their investment reduced. But people are leaving, something needs to be done to keeps the 4+ year vets engaged, but not make the curve so hard to deter new players.
I see so much potential in this game, but maybe the writing is on the wall, the damage is done.  Gambit FTW... and those that don't, leave for other mobile games. I've seen the attrition in my own alliance and circle of friends.  and it saddens me.  I wish I had a solution or answer.  I don't know that "Nerf Gambit" is right, but maybe another small tweak to him is in order... 

Quebbster

@Gold_Dragon Out of curiousity, how high do you usually go in PvP? I enjoy playing without Gambit as long as I can and it works just fine at first (I even take down the occassional Gambit team though I tend to prefer softer targets), but at a certain point it just becomes easier to climb with Gambit both offensively and defensively.

Gold_Dragon

I reach 900 for the 4* cover. After that, usually, idc what happens. I might set up a shield if I feel especially greedy. 

I go for 300 in the first hr. Wait until under 24hrs and get 575 for 10 CP. usually I’ll have thor/GRRR on defense but on the climb to 575, it varies. I’ll come back under 8 hrs and push for 900. 

I do use Gambit/Thor on the trek from 800 to 900 vs some Gambits because i don’t want to stop that momentum and from 800-900 is a sore spot for me and by that time, my GRRR has taken a chunk of health and I simply want a change in variety with who I climb with. Of course, it depends on who the character the tourney is based on too. I don’t Shield until after 900 if I feel greedy. 

In SS, I reach 2000 for the 4* cover. After that, idc what happens.

Ecka

I disagree... I too was in the gambit is O/P crowd until they nerfed him... he is not as powerful as before... set beatable but yes unfortunately you need a gambit to counter him... instead of nerfing him again... why don't they BUFF the characters that desperately need it... Banner??? Star Lord??? I have already posted to devs about Banners possible changes even as simple as swapping the 3* Hulk for Banner and changing the ratings... but back to my point... Don't think about nerfing characters now... think about improving ones we don't use to counter him... A better transforming Banner would go a long way... 

Quebbster

Gold_Dragon said:

I reach 900 for the 4* cover. After that, usually, idc what happens. I might set up a shield if I feel especially greedy. 

I go for 300 in the first hr. Wait until under 24hrs and get 575 for 10 CP. usually I’ll have thor/GRRR on defense but on the climb to 575, it varies. I’ll come back under 8 hrs and push for 900. 

I do use Gambit/Thor on the trek from 800 to 900 vs some Gambits because i don’t want to stop that momentum and from 800-900 is a sore spot for me and by that time, my GRRR has taken a chunk of health and I simply want a change in variety with who I climb with. Of course, it depends on who the character the tourney is based on too. I don’t Shield until after 900 if I feel greedy. 

In SS, I reach 2000 for the 4* cover. After that, idc what happens.

I see. As I mentioned, climbing without Gambit is totally doable up until around 800 Points or so, and it looks like you agree with that. That is the Point when Gambit Land truly begins. If you try to climb to 1200 Points instead of 900 Points I Think you may agree that PvP is a bit over-saturated with Gambit teams.

Jexman

I just drew a BH Gambit, at 3-2-5 now which is undercovered but strong nonetheless, and now I don't want a nerf, I want to play with him!

jamesh

If you're going to rebalance the tier, it would be a shame to simply switch from Gambit as top of the heap to someone else.  Ideally there'd be no character that is obviously best, with each character being strong against some opponents and weak against others.

If most players end up gravitating towards one character, then that will make other characters appealing to take on those targets.  In turn, this might encourage use of a third character to take on the next set of targets.  In the end, it should encourage a diverse set of opponents to fight against rather than splitting the player base into haves and have nots.

SlappyDingle

Nerf Gambit. I'm so tired of both seeing him AND using him every. Single. Match.