Underrated/Overrated
Comments
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No, it isn't my argument - it's a strawman. IM40 isn't slow because he generates over 3x the AP as Vulture in the same amount of time, and Gambit isn't as hard of a counter because you can simply wait until Gambit is out of purple to use your yellow - AA passive will always bring Vulture down before he generates any AP. Vulture is not the #2 4* in the game. He's good. He's not #2.Daredevil217 said:PenniesForEveryone said:
Stop acting like my argument is Thor > Vulture therefore Vulture is overrated. He's slow. It takes 5 turns before he does any acceleration. That was my only point. He also has a hard counter in AA. His damage is not great either for the inevitable scenario where he is the only one left and you are left with dealing with this wonky mechanic of having to choose whether or not to make a match and generate AP or send him off for two turns while the enemy does it's thing while you watch.....also quite slow.Daredevil217 said:
I don’t think these people understand what overrated means. No one has ever said that Vulture is better than Gambit or Thor. I doubt anyone has ever in the history of MPQ rated Vulture higher than them so saying he is overrated because he is not better than them is a very weak argument.dr tinykittylove said:Re Vulture: oh noes he's not as good as a top tier 5*?
But carry on...
Yes, he is good, yes he allows you to punch above your weight......but he's still overrated.But that is your argument. That he's slow... compared to the fastest teams a tier above him. That would be like me saying IM40 (an accelerator) is slow because it takes 5 turns before he does anything and he stuns himself while the enemy does their thing, and 5* Gambit is a hard counter because he can overwrite his countdown tiles (the Archangel argument). So is IM40 overrated? Of course not! Because the argument is silly. IM40 is still the best 3 in the game.Most have Vulture as the #2 4* in the game. I feel he's the best in his tier, so I think he's actually slightly underrated, but we're talking a single spot. I could argue Grocket being number 1, only because he's the best 4* boosted and it's not even close. His boost weeks are like turning the game to easy mode. But either way, Vulture is a top 5 4* where most people have him at #2 (where he landed in the March Madness tourney behind Carol). That to me is by no means overrated.
Also, you listing him as underrated for being #2 instead of #1 is comical.0 -
That's a great argument. Gambit is overrated for exactly the reasons you mentioned. He's slow on offense and needs charged tiles to get going - it's why people bring accelerators to the fight like Thor, Bolt, or an opposing Gambit. Gambit rarely gets used in PvE because he's so slow. He's hands down the best all around character in the game, but he is not the best character for every situation. Even for hopping in PvP Panthos is still better for eating cakes, and DD/Thor or JJ/Thor, and soon to be Okoye/??? are faster than Gambit against most teams.BlackBoltRocks said:That's like saying Gambit is overrated because it takes him 4 turns to use his Red, and 6 turns to use his Purple. And Gambit himself is a hard counter, because when you cast Aces and Eights once, the opponent Gambit can take advantage of the Charged tiles for the extra damage.
Good argument?
Oh, and the scenario where Vulture is the only one left? Get as much Black AP asap to keep Vulture airborne, while fuelling his own Green and Blue to damage the opponent. Or did you forget the battery part?
To your last point - yeah, it's slow as balls, that's my point. Getting enough black AP to keep him airborne long enough to generate the blue that you need to finish off a team takes a long time. And his green CD often gets matched away without doing anything because you aren't able to make matches to protect it. It's slow.0 -
Kraven and Sandman are underrated.
Kraven has a niche where he is amazing, which is a lot more useful than a "better" 4* that never gets used because the top tier choice always trumps them.
Sandman is solid when boosted; a nice fairly cheap AOE with stun and some self fueling there, far from useless.
Switch is overrated. She's ok and all, but for all the love she gets your think her purple would be just a bit cheaper and/or did more damage.1 -
Switch was the OG Gambit - she has a passive ability that generates AP out of thin air. You never had to worry about a bad board with no purple because Switch would always make it for you. Additionally, purple is a great color to get for free because there are a lot of other characters out there than can use that purple to generate some other AP color (IF turns it into black, GSBW/KK/Rulk green, etc.). I think the IM buff dethroned her as the primary 3* AP battery, but that is why she gets so much love.crackninja said:Kraven and Sandman are underrated.
Kraven has a niche where he is amazing, which is a lot more useful than a "better" 4* that never gets used because the top tier choice always trumps them.
Sandman is solid when boosted; a nice fairly cheap AOE with stun and some self fueling there, far from useless.
Switch is overrated. She's ok and all, but for all the love she gets your think her purple would be just a bit cheaper and/or did more damage.0 -
"Slow" is relative in this context. We aren't comparing his speed to WS. We are comparing his speed to his "rating". He can be both fast relative to a lot of the roster while simultaneously slow relative to an expectation drawn from subjective perceptions.Dormammu said:Why does everyone think Vulture is slow? For 6 AP you're swimming in green and blue, plus he'll give you a bit of red and almost make back all of the initial black AP invested. You can basically put him on a continuous battery loop. Is Switch slow because her countdown takes 3 turns? Is IM40 slow because you have to get 6 AP and then wait 2 more turns? Is 3Fist slow because you have to gather some purple AP before he'll finally make some black for you? NO. Every one of those characters can speed us up.
I swear, insta-passives that play the game for us and require little-to-no effort from the player are spoiling us.
3Thor is slow. Winter Soldier is slow. Teen Jean is slow. Flaptain is slow. Vulture is fast-fast-fast.
To use a sports analogy, there's being a Hall of Famer, like Andre Dawson, and there's Mickey Mantle. We aren't criticizing the former by acknowledging the latter was better.1 -
might be alone on this one, but i feel like 4* gamora is underrated. she comes in 23rd in the official unofficial 4* ranking. i'd put her top 5.0
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I was floored in the 5-star Spidey required node when the LVL 480 or so Sandman smacked my team for 27K AoE. Where the tinykitty did THAT come from?!? I had been taking out Venom first, since his Yellow is brutal...but Sandman's AoE really caught me off guard.crackninja said:
Sandman is solid when boosted; a nice fairly cheap AOE with stun and some self fueling there, far from useless.
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Sandman's stun being green also makes him unique, which is nice if you're going for an all perma-stun team. Most stuns are purple or blue.0
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Where does the "5 turns before he does any acceleration" thing come from? On a good board where I can make black matches in my first two turns (or using C&D to make this more likely), I'll be airborne on turn three, and have my first generated AP before I make my fourth match.PenniesForEveryone said:
Stop acting like my argument is Thor > Vulture therefore Vulture is overrated. He's slow. It takes 5 turns before he does any acceleration. That was my only point. He also has a hard counter in AA. His damage is not great either for the inevitable scenario where he is the only one left and you are left with dealing with this wonky mechanic of having to choose whether or not to make a match and generate AP or send him off for two turns while the enemy does it's thing while you watch.....also quite slow.Daredevil217 said:
I don’t think these people understand what overrated means. No one has ever said that Vulture is better than Gambit or Thor. I doubt anyone has ever in the history of MPQ rated Vulture higher than them so saying he is overrated because he is not better than them is a very weak argument.dr tinykittylove said:Re Vulture: oh noes he's not as good as a top tier 5*?
But carry on...
Yes, he is good, yes he allows you to punch above your weight......but he's still overrated.
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2 black matches in a row are rarely guaranteed, so it's Turn 5 typically before any AP is generated. If you get 6 AP turn one he's up and running Turn 4. I'm sure we've all had matches though where it takes a dozen turns just to get 2 matches of the color you need.....jamesh said:
Where does the "5 turns before he does any acceleration" thing come from? On a good board where I can make black matches in my first two turns (or using C&D to make this more likely), I'll be airborne on turn three, and have my first generated AP before I make my fourth match.PenniesForEveryone said:
Stop acting like my argument is Thor > Vulture therefore Vulture is overrated. He's slow. It takes 5 turns before he does any acceleration. That was my only point. He also has a hard counter in AA. His damage is not great either for the inevitable scenario where he is the only one left and you are left with dealing with this wonky mechanic of having to choose whether or not to make a match and generate AP or send him off for two turns while the enemy does it's thing while you watch.....also quite slow.Daredevil217 said:
I don’t think these people understand what overrated means. No one has ever said that Vulture is better than Gambit or Thor. I doubt anyone has ever in the history of MPQ rated Vulture higher than them so saying he is overrated because he is not better than them is a very weak argument.dr tinykittylove said:Re Vulture: oh noes he's not as good as a top tier 5*?
But carry on...
Yes, he is good, yes he allows you to punch above your weight......but he's still overrated.0 -
If I managed to collect 6 black AP on my first turn somehow and go airborne on the second turn, then I'll have generated some AP at the beginning of the third turn. My point was that Vulture's AP gain doesn't come as a big lump when he lands: if he's feeding someone else, then they can make use of that AP while he's still airborne.
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That makes sense. My experience has been that her countdown is unreliable and a bit slow, and I probably used im40 for 95% of my 3* battles. Also probably worth mentioning that prof x is one of the last 4*'s that I haven't champed, so I never got to take advantage of that combo.PenniesForEveryone said:
Switch was the OG Gambit - she has a passive ability that generates AP out of thin air. You never had to worry about a bad board with no purple because Switch would always make it for you. Additionally, purple is a great color to get for free because there are a lot of other characters out there than can use that purple to generate some other AP color (IF turns it into black, GSBW/KK/Rulk green, etc.). I think the IM buff dethroned her as the primary 3* AP battery, but that is why she gets so much love.crackninja said:Kraven and Sandman are underrated.
Kraven has a niche where he is amazing, which is a lot more useful than a "better" 4* that never gets used because the top tier choice always trumps them.
Sandman is solid when boosted; a nice fairly cheap AOE with stun and some self fueling there, far from useless.
Switch is overrated. She's ok and all, but for all the love she gets your think her purple would be just a bit cheaper and/or did more damage.0 -
-Underrated: Agent Venom. black is insane;both ways. I run several variations on the venom shuffle. merika,prof,Thor,Meh. He's also got a T5 team-up in Take Cover
+Overrated: cyclops. le pousy cat. For me most things Summers are not interesting. Havok for a brief arc yea kinda but nah. This is one of the few times the forums dun me wrong: I sold Howard and rostered this clown. and then I poured hella iso into his clash. smh.
-Underrated: Lockjaw. So much free damage. charged tiles are ramptastic. A full quiver if you will of blue abilities gives him depth. That dog that bit ya animation bubble is well done too.
+overrated: Vulture. At # 2 I think is overrated somewhat. I don't think IM40oz is the #1 3* either. It's hard to overstate the benefit of "free AP" but its happening with them rated that high. I just don't hold batteries in quite as high esteem as offensive potential or synergy or sometimes even speed.
-underrated: Archangel: he's the Kraven of the 5*
+overrated: Ares: conditional nuke, conditional AoE, self harm. nope.
-underrated: the hawkeyes. I use nightwing/mags/Mar-vel for my DPD, Hawkguy is seriously neglected in the free purple AP discussion. out of arrows and the fortified tile work.
+overrated: Shuri, Good character, good kit. There are too many conditionals and not enough fortified tile makers for me to find her game changing. I will enjoy building around her and finding great synergy but still niche.
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Honestly, with boosts you can get him airborne on the second turn. Which if you’re playing Chavez, you’re probably using boosts anyway. I haven’t been using them and have done just fine riding Vulture in Venom Bomb to third place currently (4* only player, CL8). Seems fast enough to me. I like using Yondu’s blue nuke and Vultures own green AOE that essentially one shots the opponent most times.jamesh said:
Where does the "5 turns before he does any acceleration" thing come from? On a good board where I can make black matches in my first two turns (or using C&D to make this more likely), I'll be airborne on turn three, and have my first generated AP before I make my fourth match.PenniesForEveryone said:
Stop acting like my argument is Thor > Vulture therefore Vulture is overrated. He's slow. It takes 5 turns before he does any acceleration. That was my only point. He also has a hard counter in AA. His damage is not great either for the inevitable scenario where he is the only one left and you are left with dealing with this wonky mechanic of having to choose whether or not to make a match and generate AP or send him off for two turns while the enemy does it's thing while you watch.....also quite slow.Daredevil217 said:
I don’t think these people understand what overrated means. No one has ever said that Vulture is better than Gambit or Thor. I doubt anyone has ever in the history of MPQ rated Vulture higher than them so saying he is overrated because he is not better than them is a very weak argument.dr tinykittylove said:Re Vulture: oh noes he's not as good as a top tier 5*?
But carry on...
Yes, he is good, yes he allows you to punch above your weight......but he's still overrated.0 -
If you're using boosts, almost everyone becomes a lot more useful, not just Vulture.Daredevil217 said:
Honestly, with boosts you can get him airborne on the second turn. Which if you’re playing Chavez, you’re probably using boosts anyway. I haven’t been using them and have done just fine riding Vulture in Venom Bomb to third place currently (4* only player, CL8). Seems fast enough to me. I like using Yondu’s blue nuke and Vultures own green AOE that essentially one shots the opponent most times.jamesh said:
Where does the "5 turns before he does any acceleration" thing come from? On a good board where I can make black matches in my first two turns (or using C&D to make this more likely), I'll be airborne on turn three, and have my first generated AP before I make my fourth match.PenniesForEveryone said:
Stop acting like my argument is Thor > Vulture therefore Vulture is overrated. He's slow. It takes 5 turns before he does any acceleration. That was my only point. He also has a hard counter in AA. His damage is not great either for the inevitable scenario where he is the only one left and you are left with dealing with this wonky mechanic of having to choose whether or not to make a match and generate AP or send him off for two turns while the enemy does it's thing while you watch.....also quite slow.Daredevil217 said:
I don’t think these people understand what overrated means. No one has ever said that Vulture is better than Gambit or Thor. I doubt anyone has ever in the history of MPQ rated Vulture higher than them so saying he is overrated because he is not better than them is a very weak argument.dr tinykittylove said:Re Vulture: oh noes he's not as good as a top tier 5*?
But carry on...
Yes, he is good, yes he allows you to punch above your weight......but he's still overrated.
And, again, no one here is saying Vulture is bad.
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For the 5* essential with Peter I've elected not to use my level 479 Vulture, but instead go with my 266 IM40. IM basically does the same thing but does it better. Usually by Turn 6 or 7 I've gotten yellow to go off and I have enough AP to take down the 515s. With Vulture I was having to send him airborne twice to get enough AP to win.....which is REALLY GOOD.....but it's not good enough to best the battery from the tier below him, it's not good enough to call him the #2 4* in the game.Borstock said:
If you're using boosts, almost everyone becomes a lot more useful, not just Vulture.Daredevil217 said:
Honestly, with boosts you can get him airborne on the second turn. Which if you’re playing Chavez, you’re probably using boosts anyway. I haven’t been using them and have done just fine riding Vulture in Venom Bomb to third place currently (4* only player, CL8). Seems fast enough to me. I like using Yondu’s blue nuke and Vultures own green AOE that essentially one shots the opponent most times.jamesh said:
Where does the "5 turns before he does any acceleration" thing come from? On a good board where I can make black matches in my first two turns (or using C&D to make this more likely), I'll be airborne on turn three, and have my first generated AP before I make my fourth match.PenniesForEveryone said:
Stop acting like my argument is Thor > Vulture therefore Vulture is overrated. He's slow. It takes 5 turns before he does any acceleration. That was my only point. He also has a hard counter in AA. His damage is not great either for the inevitable scenario where he is the only one left and you are left with dealing with this wonky mechanic of having to choose whether or not to make a match and generate AP or send him off for two turns while the enemy does it's thing while you watch.....also quite slow.Daredevil217 said:
I don’t think these people understand what overrated means. No one has ever said that Vulture is better than Gambit or Thor. I doubt anyone has ever in the history of MPQ rated Vulture higher than them so saying he is overrated because he is not better than them is a very weak argument.dr tinykittylove said:Re Vulture: oh noes he's not as good as a top tier 5*?
But carry on...
Yes, he is good, yes he allows you to punch above your weight......but he's still overrated.
And, again, no one here is saying Vulture is bad.0 -
I don't know, I feel like we're underrating how good Vulture's other moves are. C&D is a decent black battery, but their own black ability isn't that great, so they need a partner. Vulture can be on any team, even with other black users because after one trip airborne its easy to have too much black ap. He can even be spec'd 3/5/5 to be a self sufficient wrecking crew in the 4* tier. His airborne mechanic makes him easier to survive in the 5* tier. His tile removal is still a useful move in 5* land, but IM40's other moves would never be used.0
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This isn't a discussion about who's fastest, it's just overrated vs underrated characters. Vulture is fantastic and even though he's primarily a battery the fact that he has a solid damage dealing blue that can destroy countdown and special tiles AND generate AP (I think this part people tend to forget) and then when he's boosted he can pretty much beat any PVE node on his own. I actually have a 4* Milano attached to my 4* Starlord (I use him in PVE) and that starts me with 3 black AP about 1/3rd of the time so if I can make a black match right away I'm usually generating AP by turn 3 and if I make couple more black matches then I'm set for the entire match and he's on autopilot. He's the only 4* I use unboosted consistently.
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