New music? Please?

palenoue

What will it take for you to make new music for the game?  There's a lot of starving musicians on the internet, not to mention all the work being done with AI music composition, so why not launch a kickstarter or release new music as DLC for us players to assign wherever we want?

Different music for different stories/PvP themes?  Howard the Duck storyline should have different music than Strange Sights, and Versus should have a few different tunes.

Music that changes as you lose characters/defeat enemy characters?  Something along the lines of six instruments, three for the player's team, three for the game's team, if you lose a character that instrument drops out and the remaining two pick up more emphasis as you struggle to keep up, same for the game's side.  Would add a lot of excitement to the game.

Player controls?  Let me assign Bluegrass to Deadpool's Daily Challenge (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N4JKn3lO-0) while other players opt for World (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R6lEytvMLo) or techno (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y05QM54QLZ0) or even toon tunes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viHWPryinJI).

Music variety makes games more enjoyable.  Just look at Cuphead (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83nkm7dx7qg&list=PLTSIqhWP1gKVcDruitj0nq1mN3B--PUPh&index=2), a game that's been getting such acclaim for their soundtrack (hit #3 on Billboard) they sell it as a separate album.

So, what can we, the players, do to convince you to make changes to the music in MPQ?

Jrlrma

Theyre releasing 3 new tracks but theyre putting them in a 300-item vault. 

Happy hunting

Jarvind

Obligatory "lolz this game has sound?" comment.

I turned it back on for the first time in at least a year recently. Lasted about 5 minutes before I turned it back off.

Shintok17

This game has sound? I always have it on mute. Since I play so many hours a day I got tired of listening to the same thing all day. Also I don't like to bother my family or Co Workers with gaming sounds. This also falls under the same question of "PVP has a story?" Skip Skip Skip.

Dormammu

I may be the only player (other than the OP) who actually listens to the sound in this game. If, after 5 years, they suddenly changed the music it may be so jarring that I'd have a seizure.

Dragon_Nexus

I muted the music years ago. The soundtrack for me is podcasts.

mpqr7

I produce music. I would gladly give you some of my instrumentals for the game for free. I could use the promotion! Make it happen!

Chrono_Tata

Yeah I don't think enough people listen or pay attention to the music enough for the devs to put much thought into updating the game's music. It's just the nature of being a mobile game.

crackninja

Chrono_Tata said:

Yeah I don't think enough people listen or pay attention to the music enough for the devs to put much thought into updating the game's music. It's just the nature of being a mobile game.

In other words, new soundtrack confirmed.

palenoue

Jrlrma said:
Theyre releasing 3 new tracks but theyre putting them in a 300-item vault. 

They are?  Where can I find more info on that?

Chrono_Tata said:

Yeah I don't think enough people listen or pay attention to the music enough for the devs to put much thought into updating the game's music. It's just the nature of being a mobile game.

No, that's the nature of programmers not being musically inclined.  Most game devs consider music to be something thrown in at the last minute, hacked together in Garageband or downloaded from GenericElectronicNoise.Com.  This explains why most mobile game music is annoying, obnoxious, and muted after three minutes of initial gameplay.

However, there are several mobile games out there with good music that changes throughout gameplay and is enjoyed by gamers even after playing the game for months.  According to sales, surveys and comments the music is a big seller when it's properly appreciated and implemented.

mpqr7 said:

I produce music. I would gladly give you some of my instrumentals for the game for free. I could use the promotion! Make it happen!

Could you make something that can change depending on gameplay?  Like that example I mentioned before where individual instruments drop out as characters are defeated but the remaining ones pick up the pace, all while the (tempo? Allegro? I have no idea what term to use here) gets more exciting as the end of the game approaches.  If so, how would you describe it to other musicians?  I've tried talking to musicians about this concept but because I don't know the proper terms all I get are blank, uncomprehending stares (as they back away slowly, looking for the exit ;-)

Dormammu said:

I may be the only player (other than the OP) who actually listens to the sound in this game. If, after 5 years, they suddenly changed the music it may be so jarring that I'd have a seizure.

That's why user controls are important, especially the option for the game to play music you choose from your own collection.  

Shintok17 said:

This game has sound? I always have it on mute. Since I play so many hours a day I got tired of listening to the same thing all day. Also I don't like to bother my family or Co Workers with gaming sounds. 

Thank you for being considerate!  Having been stuck in places where some oblivious jerk is playing a game with the volume up loud I really appreciate it when gamers use earplugs or mute.

palenoue

Here's a thought:
     I have been bugging d3 about how long it takes to complete a story stage (four hours a day?  Five?  Who has that kind of time and has a life?)  I've missed out on most covers and command points simply because there's not enough hours in the day to slog through 70+ battles.  In fact this is the #1 reason I've had to stop playing games I enjoy: the better I get the longer it takes to get anywhere.
     So consider the advantages and disadvantages of this suggestion: two-character team ups vs. game couples in short encounters.  Five battles in mini-story format, one day only.  Choosing the right characters is much more important, especially if the fight requires one specific character.  The fights are shorter but more intense, you only get one 3-4 star cover, 3 command points, 20 red iso, whatever.
     The d3 devs could use this new format to experiment with music, like using four instruments instead of six (one per character involved in fight).  They could have a steadily increasing beat/bass providing rhythm while the four instruments make with the changing melodies.
     For market test purposes d3 could just whip up a randomizer for a basic battle, such as  (random villain 1) and (random villain 2) are robbing a bank with nameless rent-a-minions and you have to choose two characters to stop them.  Battle #1 & #2 are random minions, but since they are often easier to fight than named villains there could be three or even four minions to defeat.  Battle #3 & #4 are comprised of one named villain and one/two minions.  The last fight is your two characters against the two main villains but at a slightly higher level.  Once d3 gets this basic format into the game they can set up a team-up every day randomly or experiment to find the best matches.
     After a few months they could ask us players what they think.  If the majority doesn't like it or constantly mutes the music then d3 didn't lose as much as if they revamped the entire game.  If it's popular and there's a demand for in-game purchases of new music DLC then they can expand this to the rest of the game and come up with more varied doubles-match scenarios.
     So what do you think?  Pros?  Cons?  Any chance we could convince d3 to give this a try?
     And please, if you're the kind of forum commenter who hates any idea that they didn't think of themselves or who thrives of condemnation of any and all suggestions without actually thinking about it, just skip this thread.

DeNappa

palenoue said:

Jrlrma said:
Theyre releasing 3 new tracks but theyre putting them in a 300-item vault. 

They are?  Where can I find more info on that?

Whoosh

On-topic though: while I wouldn't be opposed to a few more tracks or a somewhat longer track (as long as they won't hog up too much precious MB's) I think it's really not worth it considering the amount of people that play the game with the music muted in favor of their own music or activity. 

In my experience, games with great soundtracks have a lot of diversity and also change due to progression/levels/tension etc. But MPQ is just matching gems until the level is over and the levels don't really change either. And even great music will start to bore you if you have to listen to it for an extended period of time, something a lot of MPQ players will typically do.

mpqr7

palenoue said:

mpqr7 said:

I produce music. I would gladly give you some of my instrumentals for the game for free. I could use the promotion! Make it happen!

Could you make something that can change depending on gameplay?  Like that example I mentioned before where individual instruments drop out as characters are defeated but the remaining ones pick up the pace, all while the (tempo? Allegro? I have no idea what term to use here) gets more exciting as the end of the game approaches.  If so, how would you describe it to other musicians?  I've tried talking to musicians about this concept but because I don't know the proper terms all I get are blank, uncomprehending stares (as they back away slowly, looking for the exit ;-)

----------

mpqr7's response:

I could definitely do all of that and more! Have a full song, add and remove elements, change the tempo, you name it, I'll do it. Put me in, coach!!!

NewMcG

palenoue said:

    how long it takes to complete a story stage (four hours a day?  Five?) 

You have already lost pretty much everyone on the forum with that statement.

SymmeTrey

Hard to see how this will get resources put to it. Anyone can already pick any music they want to listen to while playing the game anyway. This isn't like a first person shooter, where sound is a vital part of the game and you need to listen to the game while playing. I would guess over 80% of the playerbase has the sound off completely.

That being said, we did get an Infinity Stone that is aimed at .001% of the playerbase, so, maybe we are looking at more niche needs.

palenoue

palenoue said:

Jrlrma said:
Theyre releasing 3 new tracks but theyre putting them in a 300-item vault. 

They are?  Where can I find more info on that?

Whoosh

In my defense, I did read an article recently about a mobile game that added DLC music awarded through player achievements.  Interestingly, the games forums were dead-set against it, afraid it would shift resources from creating new scenarios or something, but turned out to be a BIG draw for casual players, keeping them playing the game longer, much less drop-out after three months.

On-topic though: while I wouldn't be opposed to a few more tracks or a somewhat longer track (as long as they won't hog up too much precious MB's) I think it's really not worth it considering the amount of people that play the game with the music muted in favor of their own music or activity.

I've read many articles about music in mobile games and MB's aren't a problem when done right, considering most game music is repeating loops.  It's how you mix those loops that makes a difference between good music players want to listen to over and over again and "meh" or annoying music that players mute forever after a few minutes.  Again, the problem is most mobile game devs consider music something necessary but trivial (when they consider it at all.)

In my experience, games with great soundtracks have a lot of diversity and also change due to progression/levels/tension etc. But MPQ is just matching gems until the level is over and the levels don't really change either. 

Good point.  MPQ levels do last long enough for a decent tune, but right now the music plays at a steady fast pace that doesn't change, so maybe even a slight change in tempo from start to finish might make a difference?  Considering all the talented people d3 has making many, many games they should be able to do a little experimenting with the music, if only to one-up their competitors.

mpqr7's response:
I could definitely do all of that and more! Have a full song, add and remove elements, change the tempo, you name it, I'll do it. Put me in, coach!!!

Any samples we could listen to?  How about recording videos of a few battles from start to victory/defeat with the music off but sound effects on, then compose new music for the video?  If you do, please try different genres/styles.  "Generic Synth Noise" and "Overly Orchestrated Mess" are soooooooooo overdone, some electro swing or rock-a-billy would be appreciated.  Also, doing this could make for a good demo to show dev companies who are seriously lacking in the music department.

palenoue said:

    how long it takes to complete a story stage (four hours a day?  Five?) 

You have already lost pretty much everyone on the forum with that statement.

Oops, bad copy/paste there.  I think I meant to say that it feels like 4-5 hours because you have so much else to do in your life.  Maybe.  I was distracted by the internet at the time.  Hard to do any research on forum topics because every time you look up something (like procedurally-generated music in games) you keep finding more interesting stuff to read/watch/investigate.  And of course cat videos.  There's no escaping the time-theft of cat videos.

Also, losing everyone on this forum isn't a problem considering everybody here only makes up 0.00000000001% of the global player base for d3 games.  Only the most hard-core players of mobile games with oodles of free time and a strong passion for a specific game visit forums.  This really skews the viewpoints represented here.  For example, everyone here likes MPQ (as it is) so much they are compelled to visit these forums, so they have a vested interest in the game remaining the same and auto-dislike suggestions that might bring about change.

This is good for devs as it gives them insight into the game's strengths from players who really, really, really like playing the game, but it can (and has) destroyed games if the devs take their forums too seriously.  If the devs only pay attention to forums they miss out entirely on the feedback from 100,000 times more players who try the game for a week/month before deleting it due to the game taking progressively more time to play as they get better, a reward system that heavily favors a deep commitment most can't develop, a PvP system that totally ignores experience and skill disparities, or annoying music (for most casual players annoying/aggressive music creates a bad impression of the game from the very start that sticks with them even after muting.)

Biggest problem is the forums are often the _only_ way to give devs the feedback they need, which opens the casual player to a lot of abuse.  If 90% of new players delete a game after ten minutes of play because the PvP system is totally out of whack (first-time players are put up against experienced hard-core e-sport level slaughter machines) and just one of them posts on the forum "The PvP is too hard for new players" they are shouted down by a dozen forum dwellers who believe the game is perfect as is, so the devs are going to believe the PvP system working just fine and no changes need to be done.

That being said, we did get an Infinity Stone that is aimed at .001% of the playerbase, so, maybe we are looking at more niche needs. 

Supporting niche needs makes for a highly profitable mobile game.  The games that respond to niche requests while building on their core strengths are pulling in truck-loads more money than those that only follow forum echo chambers.  MPQ has already done this with new character polls, supports, etc., so why can't they try improving the music to appease those casual players (who don't post in forums) who think a game's music says a lot about how fun it is to play?

0_efx_0

STEP 1) Turn off music
STEP 2) Run Pandora
          Or
STEP 3) Run Podcast (PuzzleWarriors or Joe Rogan Experience) <———— My Favorite

You’re Welcome

crackninja

Only the most hard-core players of mobile games with oodles of free time and a strong passion for a specific game visit forums.  This really skews the viewpoints represented here.  For example, everyone here likes MPQ (as it is) so much they are compelled to visit these forums, so they have a vested interest in the game remaining the same and auto-dislike suggestions that might bring about change.

Interesting perspective, but every time there is a poll asking about satisfaction or if you would recommend this game to a friend, the results suggest otherwise.
Personally I think having a more compelling soundtrack would be great.  Playing the original zelda was 10x better because of the music.  It's just that most players of mobile games turn the sound off of all games for various reasons, so spending too much time on this compared to improving other issues feels misplaced to many, myself included.

palenoue

0_efx_0 said:

STEP 1) Turn off music
STEP 2) Run Pandora
          Or
STEP 3) Run Podcast (PuzzleWarriors or Joe Rogan Experience) <———— My Favorite

You’re Welcome

So what you're saying is: I wouldn't use/listen to it, so it shouldn't be considered.

Well, I never play MPQ PvP, so should that part of the game be removed?

crackninja said:

Only the most hard-core players of mobile games with oodles of free time and a strong passion for a specific game visit forums.  This really skews the viewpoints represented here.  For example, everyone here likes MPQ (as it is) so much they are compelled to visit these forums, so they have a vested interest in the game remaining the same and auto-dislike suggestions that might bring about change.

Interesting perspective, but every time there is a poll asking about satisfaction or if you would recommend this game to a friend, the results suggest otherwise.

Personally I think having a more compelling soundtrack would be great.  Playing the original zelda was 10x better because of the music.  It's just that most players of mobile games turn the sound off of all games for various reasons, so spending too much time on this compared to improving other issues feels misplaced to many, myself included.

They post the results of their polls?  Right on d3!  Very few game companies do that.
As for poll results, better music could be something non-forum reading players want without knowing it.  Consider most platformers before and after Cuphead.  Before the forums were filled with "Make more harder levels!" then they were filled with "Why can't you have better music like Cuphead?" (among other things)  Has d3 ever asked "Would you like better music?" in a poll?  If not, would your average player even consider it as something that could be improved?

Most casual players mute the sound because the music is banal/uninspired/headache-inducing or the sound effects are too harsh.  Compare MPQ players to Mario players players and see which game is muted the most.  Even after thousands of replays gamers still keep the music on because Mario just isn't Mario without the music.

As for improving the music resulting in more time/effort/resources/removal of PvP entirely/dogs and cats living together/etc., is that really true?  Better music requires nothing more than hiring a good game musician and adding an option for the player to swap out soundtracks.  Adding better music loops that respond to gameplay shouldn't be any harder than new sound effects for a new storyline (if the game was developed properly for expansion and additions)

I used to read game autopsies before they got too depressing (too many devs living in their own world who are hostile to gamer input.)  There have been many, many games that died due to over-assumptions based on dev lack of knowledge, like "it would take too much development time," "We'd have to sacrifice other things," "Nobody would be interested (i.e.: _I'm_ not interested)" "It would be too complicated" and so on and so forth.  Only after the game met it's grisly death did they discover the opposite was true.

One example in particular highlights this discussion: this one studio was working on a cartoony first-person shooter for mobile.  They weren't trying for award-winning art or cutting edge gameplay, they just wanted to make it fun.  Halfway through development a 3rd person hack & slash game came out with procedural music (done entirely with small loops) that made playing the game much more exciting.  They believed such music would make their game far more popular than without, but because nobody on the dev team had any experience with game music they assumed it would require a full rewriting of the code, add months to the dev time, and require either one very expensive professional musician or a dozen not-so-professional music people.  So they didn't look into the matter any further and went back to their original plan of no music whatsoever, just sound effects.  The game was released with a flurry of "meh" reviews and sank shortly thereafter.

A year after the game died and the small studio went under, the two top devs found themselves working for a large company (like d3) who had a few music people on the payroll.  During lunch one day they sat at the table with one of those music guys, described what they wanted to do with their old game and the reasoning behind not doing so, and asked for his advice.  The guy thought about it, finished his sandwich, and said "Two weeks."  "Two weeks what?" the devs asked.  "Two weeks to code procedural music system into your game, create the loops, and tweak the songs for best effect.  You wouldn't even have to touch the rest of the code and it could handle all your future music needs and changes.  Only need a two-person team, a decent musician who knows loops and and programmer who groks the concept."  There was probably a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth that day.

So how much effort would be involved for d3 to add better music to MPQ?  They could start with a poll specifically about music.  If there's enough interest they could have a person or two look into the various ways other studios add good music to their games (there are lots of ways to do this, each with its own pros and cons.)  Once they decide on a music plan or two they could either talk to their own programmers (d3 has a lot of them, surely there must be one or two who understands the concept) or consult outside professionals.  At that point, with very little effort considering how big d3 is, they would know how hard or easy it would be to make better music for the game, all without troublesome chaos among the workers or draining resources from MPQ.

That's all I'm asking here, that they just consider it.

purplemur

Sonic had decent beats; especially the pinball, Shining Force still gets in my head, That 7-Up game Spot had the JAMS! and Metroid changing when you entered different zones. 
Super Mario Bros: World 1-2

I'd add money to a kickstarter. DLC for steam: if they can't haz UI can they at least have good audio?

palenoue

purplemur said:

Sonic had decent beats; especially the pinball, Shining Force still gets in my head, That 7-Up game Spot had the JAMS! and Metroid changing when you entered different zones. 
Super Mario Bros: World 1-2

I'd add money to a kickstarter. DLC for steam: if they can't haz UI can they at least have good audio?

See?  Putting effort into better music creates a memorable experience for the player that stays with them ;-)

As for Kickstarter, that's a great idea which has been done before, but never for music.  Crowdsourcing is a good way to test the market (are enough people interested to make this worthwhile?), generate feedback/support (what kinds of music are they willing to support?), and cater to niche interests (first stretch goal: electro swing, second stretch goal: rock-a-billy, third stretch goal: J-pop) all without making a large commitment up front.  Basically, it's like saying "Do you want better music?  If we raise enough money we'll hire a musician and game music programmer.  If not we'll just add a large mute button."

OJSP said:

I admire your passion on this subject. But, look at the game’s Credits: there’s only one person mentioned for Audio (Keith Zizza) and he is credited under Demiurge Studios Development Team Alumni. The actual/current development team consists of 21 people and none for Audio. Edit: found one person credited for Music further down, Rob Abernethy. But it’s unclear which company he’s in.

I would rather they fix the bugs first and find another employee to help that before allocating one or hiring a new one for the music.

I am a good game designer.  Several games I came up with for friends decades ago are still being played by their expanding families and newer friends.  I study computer game design as an interesting hobby and am shocked... SHOCKED!... at the astounding ignorance and hostility so many indie developers have towards game design basics.  Every week a dozen new mobile games come out that contain fatal design flaws so bad you can practically see it in the demo videos and the games disappear from the app store in a few months.  End rant.  If it wasn't for the stroke I had a while back I'd be programming my own games, but as it is I still study the field, see what innovations are created, investigate twists made to old genres, etc.  Kind of like fantasy football for mobile games ;-)

When I find a game I like, such as MPQ, I try to figure out what would make the game more enjoyable and popular to the majority of gamers out there.  More often than not when a game implements these changes they become more popular and start pulling in large amounts of money.  When the game dies an obscure death and the devs talk about what went wrong my observations often correspond with their "Wish we did this instead of that" conclusions.

With MPQ I see only two improvements needed to expand their player base deeper into the casual mobile market.  First is daily doubles matches.  Player chooses two characters (or one for mandatory teem ups, which Marvel does so well in their comics) to go up against two opposing characters.  Similar to Deadpool's Daily but with quicker and more intense battles.  Simpler and quicker than the multi-day stories, more substance than the versus matches, a good medium between the two.

The second area I figure would make MPQ more popular with a wider audience is music.  The music they have now is more like constant noise than game music, which is why so many people mute or stop playing altogether.  This isn't to say the music is bad, it's not, but it's so repetitive and unresponsive to what's going on in the game that it becomes annoying over time.  I have studied the effect good/meh/bad music has on games for the last few decades (I find the field of game design interesting, much in the same way others find space exploration, theoretical physics or even molecular gastronomy)  and based on that research MPQ could become more successful with the larger casual market (people who play the game a few times a week as opposed to every day) than any other match-three games.

I would like to see d3 get into this proposal so as to study the effect better music has on retaining casual players past the initial phase, how it improves their in-game purchases (more enjoyment = more $$$ spent on gold coins) and if there is an impact on other match-three games.  Often when one game becomes a breakout success due to a couple of differences (such as hand-drawn art) devs working on other games take notice and incorporate those new ideas into their games, which makes the entire field of mobile gaming better for everyone.

Another thing that puzzles/bugs me is this automatic assumption that to improve one aspect of a game requires the abandoning or degradation of something else.  You see this all the time in forums, someone asks if it's at all possible to add more PvE content and they are immediately savaged by forum dwellers who believe that even the slightest consideration to PvE means the elimination of all new PvP content.  Such attacks lead the devs to believe that PvP is the only thing they should be working on despite the overwhelming large number of players who quit the game after a couple of months because there's not enough good PvE to explore, yet don't post their reasonings in the forums because they are not that passionate about it and they don't like getting ripped apart by seriously biased forum dwellers.

So my question to you and d3 is: Why do you think it would be so difficult to explore this suggestion that you must stop work on bug squashing?  Can't you just have some team leader shout "You!  The guy with the toy dinosaurs and Star Wars motif scattered across your desk.  Get on the internet and look into what we'd have to do in order to add procedural music to MPQ.  Let us know what you find at Monday's meeting."  How does this seriously impact fixing bugs?  How does this cause other aspects of the game come crashing to a halt?  It's that false assumption people have about computer games that any change, or even suggestion of change, is so mind-boggling complex and difficult that even AAA console companies can't handle it despite their large army of developers.