Black Widow (Infinity War) (5/1/18)

DarthDeVo

LavaManLee said:

She's very underwhelming, even as a support character.  Unless she's required, I am not sure when I would use her over any of the "newer" support characters: Jubilee, Valkyrie, Shuri, Rogue, Mockingbird all make better support characters. Just not sure what the intent was of her other then Marvel wanted her so they quickly came up with something without much thought.

 Yep, played the initial node in Shield Training last night. If it wasn't for her health pool, I'd think she was a 2*. Maybe a 3*, with the invisibility. She could really use a nuke to help her stand on her own offensively. As it is the most damage she can do on her own at 270 with five covers in black is less than 1500. That's incredibly weak. 

Shintok17

darkwatcherDEZ said:

Shintok17 said:

I learned the hard way in the loaner node in the Shield Training that by herself she is horrible, but as a support character she's not bad. Got stuck on a stalemate with Daken with only Widow alive and had to retreat and try it again since I spent half and hour trying to get his health down only for him to heal again. I had full health the whole time because of the Yellow power and Invisibility, but her powers were too weak to win. Her powers don't cause too much damage. Her invisibility is good, but against healers you can't just stay invisible.

@ Shintok17 - No retreat no surrender...If you find yourself in a similar situation with Daken in the future, choke him out by matching all blue.

I tried, but the blues kept coming and Widow's powers are so weak damage wise. Never felt so angry in this game since I had to quit after so long with my full health in tact. Anyways I got it done the next round. Most of these newer 4*'s don't stand a chance in 1 Vs 1 battles. Specially with a low amount of covers.

Punisher5784

DarthDeVo said:

LavaManLee said:

She's very underwhelming, even as a support character.  Unless she's required, I am not sure when I would use her over any of the "newer" support characters: Jubilee, Valkyrie, Shuri, Rogue, Mockingbird all make better support characters. Just not sure what the intent was of her other then Marvel wanted her so they quickly came up with something without much thought.

 Yep, played the initial node in Shield Training last night. If it wasn't for her health pool, I'd think she was a 2*. Maybe a 3*, with the invisibility. She could really use a nuke to help her stand on her own offensively. As it is the most damage she can do on her own at 270 with five covers in black is less than 1500. That's incredibly weak. 

Her purple needs to be a nuke.. after invisibility she destroys special tiles then what? Become a target and die.. yeah great design. Even 4* Spidey has a strong nuke after coming out of Invisibility. She should at least deal a specific amount of damage for each special tile destroyed

Yepyep

Shintok17 said:

... Most of these newer 4*'s don't stand a chance in 1 Vs 1 battles. Specially with a low amount of covers.

This is a really interesting, provocative comment and worthy of a separate thread of discussion. Would you care to take the time to start one and expand on your thoughts? A lot could come from it, I think.

Shintok17

Yepyep said:

Shintok17 said:

... Most of these newer 4*'s don't stand a chance in 1 Vs 1 battles. Specially with a low amount of covers.

This is a really interesting, provocative comment and worthy of a separate thread of discussion. Would you care to take the time to start one and expand on your thoughts? A lot could come from it, I think.

Most of them are good for support, but that's it. Look at Kraven. He is only good for lowering the damage on special tiles. So if the enemy does not really have them then he is just there for decoration. America's powers are all passives, but her Green is beast once you get it going. That also makes you not want to waste AP on other teammate's powers, which kind of sucks. This also makes the bottom row of Shield Training very hard when you only get 1 or 2 covers of the new 4* character. you have to rely on match damage. 

Waddles_Pines

Punisher5784 said:

Her purple needs to be a nuke.. after invisibility she destroys special tiles then what? Become a target and die.. yeah great design. Even 4* Spidey has a strong nuke after coming out of Invisibility. She should at least deal a specific amount of damage for each special tile destroyed

I feel your pain.  I left the animations on just to see what they came up with, and finally had enough purple to do the alt power.  Then I saw like 400 damage, and I literally cursed out loud.  Is it just me, but I have a champed Yondu and Spider-Woman and the loaner node is a lot harder than it should be...  Shouldn't the loaner node be used to show how great the new character is... 

DarthDeVo

Waddles_Pines said:

Punisher5784 said:

Her purple needs to be a nuke.. after invisibility she destroys special tiles then what? Become a target and die.. yeah great design. Even 4* Spidey has a strong nuke after coming out of Invisibility. She should at least deal a specific amount of damage for each special tile destroyed

I feel your pain.  I left the animations on just to see what they came up with, and finally had enough purple to do the alt power.  Then I saw like 400 damage, and I literally cursed out loud.

Hey, you got quite the haul. I think mine did something like 250 damage. For what amounts to 17 AP.

If I'm spending that amount of AP in the 4* tier, I should be seeing five digit damage done. 

Yepyep

Shintok17 said:

Yepyep said:

Shintok17 said:

... Most of these newer 4*'s don't stand a chance in 1 Vs 1 battles. Specially with a low amount of covers.

This is a really interesting, provocative comment and worthy of a separate thread of discussion. Would you care to take the time to start one and expand on your thoughts? A lot could come from it, I think.

Most of them are good for support, but that's it. Look at Kraven. He is only good for lowering the damage on special tiles. So if the enemy does not really have them then he is just there for decoration. America's powers are all passives, but her Green is beast once you get it going. That also makes you not want to waste AP on other teammate's powers, which kind of sucks. This also makes the bottom row of Shield Training very hard when you only get 1 or 2 covers of the new 4* character. you have to rely on match damage. 

Re America, it's important to point out that her red passive influences her own match damage, so it has direct results while operating passively.

As far as other recent characters, I know what you are saying about Shield Training -- it was awful for Jubilee (any awful character, really), for example. But not so awful for Valkyrie.

Punisher5784

Yepyep said:

Shintok17 said:

Yepyep said:

Shintok17 said:

... Most of these newer 4*'s don't stand a chance in 1 Vs 1 battles. Specially with a low amount of covers.

This is a really interesting, provocative comment and worthy of a separate thread of discussion. Would you care to take the time to start one and expand on your thoughts? A lot could come from it, I think.

Most of them are good for support, but that's it. Look at Kraven. He is only good for lowering the damage on special tiles. So if the enemy does not really have them then he is just there for decoration. America's powers are all passives, but her Green is beast once you get it going. That also makes you not want to waste AP on other teammate's powers, which kind of sucks. This also makes the bottom row of Shield Training very hard when you only get 1 or 2 covers of the new 4* character. you have to rely on match damage. 

Re America, it's important to point out that her red passive influences her own match damage, so it has direct results while operating passively.

As far as other recent characters, I know what you are saying about Shield Training -- it was awful for Jubilee (any awful character, really), for example. But not so awful for Valkyrie.

Shield Training is easy because you can bring T/U's. For Crash of the Titans, it'll be more challenging but hopefully by then those characters will be champed or fully covered

KGB

Shintok17 said:

darkwatcherDEZ said:

Shintok17 said:

I learned the hard way in the loaner node in the Shield Training that by herself she is horrible, but as a support character she's not bad. Got stuck on a stalemate with Daken with only Widow alive and had to retreat and try it again since I spent half and hour trying to get his health down only for him to heal again. I had full health the whole time because of the Yellow power and Invisibility, but her powers were too weak to win. Her powers don't cause too much damage. Her invisibility is good, but against healers you can't just stay invisible.

@ Shintok17 - No retreat no surrender...If you find yourself in a similar situation with Daken in the future, choke him out by matching all blue.

I tried, but the blues kept coming and Widow's powers are so weak damage wise. Never felt so angry in this game since I had to quit after so long with my full health in tact. Anyways I got it done the next round. Most of these newer 4*'s don't stand a chance in 1 Vs 1 battles. Specially with a low amount of covers.

I had a similar experience to yours.

In my case I was left with Widow vs Beast. Like you, I was invisible but Beast kept getting enough Yellow to do a Medical Marvel before I could match damage him to death.

I think my battle ended up taking 25+ minutes and I ended up with 30 in just about every AP pool (I had to keep self healing with Yellow every time Beast got off his Green AOE). Finally with 30 black I was able to keep him stunned for enough turns in a row to kill him.

She's trash tier and I can't imagine a single team I'd ever user her on given she has zero offense. If you want someone with Purple Invisibility then Howards purple is WAY better than hers because he does damage every turn with it and Prof X at least creates specials, buffs them and has a killer match 5 power etc.

If you need burst heal then 3* Kamala at 266 (max champ) is going to be way better than her because of her other powers or Medusa when she matches specials etc.

KGB

mega ghost

I don't have her rostered yet and I won't truly know her utility until she's champed, but I think everyone is coming down on her too hard. Is she a game-changer? No. Does she have any offensive ability? No. But how often do we find ourselves making teams of two characters with synergy with a much less meaningful third wheel? It happens to me a lot. Replace that third with 4* Black Widow and you just might have a solid support character. She won't end the match, but she can reliably cut the enemy off at the knees with her stun and AP destruction (passively delivered with her stun or anyone else's stun), and her yellow is not something to take lightly. Her purple is crummy, at best it's a Hail Mary move to keep you in the match, otherwise I'd use most other purple abilities over hers.

Yepyep

mega ghost said:

I don't have her rostered yet and I won't truly know her utility until she's champed, but I think everyone is coming down on her too hard. Is she a game-changer? No. Does she have any offensive ability? No. But how often do we find ourselves making teams of two characters with synergy with a much less meaningful third wheel? It happens to me a lot. Replace that third with 4* Black Widow and you just might have a solid support character. She won't end the match, but she can reliably cut the enemy off at the knees with her stun and AP destruction (passively delivered with her stun or anyone else's stun), and her yellow is not something to take lightly. Her purple is crummy, at best it's a Hail Mary move to keep you in the match, otherwise I'd use most other purple abilities over hers.

Yes. See, for example, Wasp. This is exactly how a support character should be, and Black Widow is a reliable support in other incarnations (though I'm not qualified to speak about 5* and her 3* can play a minor lead role). I have no problem with a well-implemented support character, personally.
My real worry is: plenty of supports (and Supports) require tweaks post-release. Forward-facing business goals are easier to justify, because new revenue is usually the primary drive behind the origination process of a new feature. Reparative and maintenance goals are harder to justify, because new revenue is usually not part of the goal origination, or any subsequent, process.

So:

1.  Are there (still) teams in place authorized to (a) gather and courrier player feedback identifying a need and (b) shepherd a buff/nerf up into the necessary upstream (managemen-relatedt) AND back down into the downstream (player population-related) processes?
2.  Within current management, are there business processes capable of (a) pricing the identified changes, (b) triggering required authorization, and (c) locating resources to (i) plan and (ii) execute all related technical demands?

Lately we have seen only new stuff. Not fixes and rebalancings. Stagnation and desperate grabbing, MORE features, MORE characters. MORE, not better.

Not making a better game, making a flashier game.

mega ghost

Yepyep said:

mega ghost said:

I don't have her rostered yet and I won't truly know her utility until she's champed, but I think everyone is coming down on her too hard. Is she a game-changer? No. Does she have any offensive ability? No. But how often do we find ourselves making teams of two characters with synergy with a much less meaningful third wheel? It happens to me a lot. Replace that third with 4* Black Widow and you just might have a solid support character. She won't end the match, but she can reliably cut the enemy off at the knees with her stun and AP destruction (passively delivered with her stun or anyone else's stun), and her yellow is not something to take lightly. Her purple is crummy, at best it's a Hail Mary move to keep you in the match, otherwise I'd use most other purple abilities over hers.

Yes. See, for example, Wasp. This is exactly how a support character should be, and Black Widow is a reliable support in other incarnations (though I'm not qualified to speak about 5* and her 3* can play a minor lead role). I have no problem with a well-implemented support character, personally.
My real worry is: plenty of supports (and Supports) require tweaks post-release. Forward-facing business goals are easier to justify, because new revenue is usually the primary drive behind the origination process of a new feature. Reparative and maintenance goals are harder to justify, because new revenue is usually not part of the goal origination, or any subsequent, process.

So:

1.  Are there (still) teams in place authorized to (a) gather and courrier player feedback identifying a need and (b) shepherd a buff/nerf up into the necessary upstream (managemen-relatedt) AND back down into the downstream (player population-related) processes?
2.  Within current management, are there business processes capable of (a) pricing the identified changes, (b) triggering required authorization, and (c) locating resources to (i) plan and (ii) execute all related technical demands?

Lately we have seen only new stuff. Not fixes and rebalancings. Stagnation and desperate grabbing, MORE features, MORE characters. MORE, not better.

Not making a better game, making a flashier game.

These are all reasonable concerns. Are your worries specifically related to reported info or inside knowledge, though? i.e. Staff changes or attrition? As far as I understood it, the only reason we haven't seen rebalances as of late is because the team was preoccupied with the Supports feature, and now that they are launched rebalances will once again be on the schedule / agenda. And I will say, while I think they are being implemented terribly and there are some simple and obvious UI fixes needed, the new Supports feature has been notably lacking in bugs, at least compared to what we're used to with this game. I feel like the theme of 2017 was any one change, even a new character ability, would bring at least two bugs. Supports seem like they were very well QA'd, at the very least.

Yepyep

mega ghost said:

Yepyep said:

mega ghost said:

I don't have her rostered yet and I won't truly know her utility until she's champed, but I think everyone is coming down on her too hard. Is she a game-changer? No. Does she have any offensive ability? No. But how often do we find ourselves making teams of two characters with synergy with a much less meaningful third wheel? It happens to me a lot. Replace that third with 4* Black Widow and you just might have a solid support character. She won't end the match, but she can reliably cut the enemy off at the knees with her stun and AP destruction (passively delivered with her stun or anyone else's stun), and her yellow is not something to take lightly. Her purple is crummy, at best it's a Hail Mary move to keep you in the match, otherwise I'd use most other purple abilities over hers.

Yes. See, for example, Wasp. This is exactly how a support character should be, and Black Widow is a reliable support in other incarnations (though I'm not qualified to speak about 5* and her 3* can play a minor lead role). I have no problem with a well-implemented support character, personally.
My real worry is: plenty of supports (and Supports) require tweaks post-release. Forward-facing business goals are easier to justify, because new revenue is usually the primary drive behind the origination process of a new feature. Reparative and maintenance goals are harder to justify, because new revenue is usually not part of the goal origination, or any subsequent, process.

So:

1.  Are there (still) teams in place authorized to (a) gather and courrier player feedback identifying a need and (b) shepherd a buff/nerf up into the necessary upstream (managemen-relatedt) AND back down into the downstream (player population-related) processes?
2.  Within current management, are there business processes capable of (a) pricing the identified changes, (b) triggering required authorization, and (c) locating resources to (i) plan and (ii) execute all related technical demands?

Lately we have seen only new stuff. Not fixes and rebalancings. Stagnation and desperate grabbing, MORE features, MORE characters. MORE, not better.

Not making a better game, making a flashier game.

These are all reasonable concerns. Are your worries specifically related to reported info or inside knowledge, though? i.e. Staff changes or attrition? As far as I understood it, the only reason we haven't seen rebalances as of late is because the team was preoccupied with the Supports feature, and now that they are launched rebalances will once again be on the schedule / agenda. And I will say, while I think they are being implemented terribly and there are some simple and obvious UI fixes needed, the new Supports feature has been notably lacking in bugs, at least compared to what we're used to with this game. I feel like the theme of 2017 was any one change, even a new character ability, would bring at least two bugs. Supports seem like they were very well QA'd, at the very least.

I actually started a new thread about all this, bc it seems to me so many things are all caught up together right now.

But no: I have no specific knowledge. Just observations about stuff; I might be an utter moron applying logic to hallucinations...

EDITED: to say, your points are well made and appreciated. Supports does seem to be bug free. But, then, I haven't tried to use them at all...

bluewolf

@Brigby The "Black Widow and Friends" vault that appeared over the weekend has different contents than the post stated.  Specifically, there is a Beginner Supports token in the vault (like in other normal PVE vaults) and one less 3* cover. (21 instead of 22 covers)

Was the vault as it appears intended, that is, should we expect "and Friends" vaults to contain a Support token in the future?  Or should it have another 3* cover instead?

I think most players would appreciate the opportunity to pull a Support token from the "and Friends" vaults.

ThaRoadWarrior

I kind of like having another 4* who can make purple spam to pair with G4mora, but since the loaner in this pvp is only creating a single invis tile, it's hard to tell if that is actually a viable strategy. I just got the 1 yellow from placement in Strange Sights, so it's hard to evaluate right now.

Rick_OShay

Does everyone realize that you can play and re-play the Shield Training top node repeatedly? 
Some here sound like this will be news to you. 
New BW doesn't seem too amazing so far.
But eventually, If you plan to play her as your main yellow user to burst heal and to reduce the AP cost of all color abilities (including black which 4SL does Not do), she may find some use. 

For example, I enjoyed her within a boosted 4* team of Thoress and Moon Knight. Boost 1 yellow before the match so that you need 3 yellow matches to get things going.
After you play her Brush Pass, it's just 6 blue for a Thoress stun (and the passive AP reduction from BW), 7 red for a big Smite, and 9 green for a KO Moonsilver Blades.
If someone if left standing MK does a left hook for 6 black. 

By the way, with her yellow CD out, it's just 4 purple to go invisible, then 7 for Enflade before the CD expires.
Not a huge fan of making other powers wait until you have gained the yellow overall, but it's worth it.

She works well so far with Thorbit. God Thor gets the yellow easily for you, then it's 4 AP for each A&8"s, during the CD.  

himatako

Can we give her a buff please? Something I have in mind is:

Defilade - 7  AP
When things start to look dicey, Black Widow hacks the enemy's surveillance system to keep herself out of sight and the line of fire. Black Widow creates 4 Invisibility tile(s).

If Black Widow's Invisible, this power becomes Enfilade.

Notes:
Make it so that it's easier for her to use Enfilade. Can be comboed with other character who can make their ally invisible such as Invisible Woman or 5* Wasp. This won't be that good unless we buff Enfilade, as well, which brings me to...

Enfilade - 10  AP
The Black Widow emerges from the shadows and strikes out with her batons, surprising her enemy with a tactical strike. Black Widow deals 3,200 damage plus 1,000 damage for each AP pool that has higher AP than the opponent, destroys her Invisibility tile(s) and destroys 4 enemy special tiles, dealing damage and gaining AP.

If there are no Invisibility tiles on the board and Black Widows isn't invisible, this power becomes Defilade.

(PASSIVE) Whenever a friendly Hero makes a Black, Purple or Yellow match, destroys 1 enemy AP in a random color.

Notes:
The problem with Enfilade is that it's an expensive and complicate power that only destroy special tiles + board shake. The only good thing is that it destroy enemy special tiles of any kind, and you gain AP from the tiles destroyed. However, the setup is complicated and it's so situational that you can't rely on this to counter special tiles creator, especially in the current meta where special tiles creator can just keep spamming special tiles out easily and quickly.

For an effort putting into using this power, it should have been a nuke damage dealing power. I made the damage increase for each AP color that you have higher than the opponent because she's already destroying the opponent's AP with her black passive. This will make Lights Out or stunning the opponent in general a tool to help maximizing her damage.

I also add a passive component to this power, so that there's a reason you want to turn her invisible even though you don't want to fire Enfilade. Black Widow hiding, attacking the opponent and destroying the enemy's AP sounds like it fits her and the destroying AP theme of this version. 

Brush Pass - 10  AP
Black Widow passes key intel to her teammate, giving them the upper hand. Black Widow gives a chosen ally a burst of 7,159 health and places a 4-turn Countdown tile on the board. While one of these tiles is on the board, ally powers cost 3 less AP to fire.
(PASSIVE) When an enemy AP is destroyed, gives a burst of 500 health to the whole team for each destroyed AP. 

Notes:
Added a passive component to this power. The reason being we have more and more powers that destroy or stealing the opponent's AP, but we don't really have anything that can combo with that yet. Burst healing isn't too strong, but can still be useful if it is reliable. This way there's a way to use her as a main healer. Team healing by the passive component, which synergizes with her other two powers, and single target high amount healing by the active component. 


I don't know if this is the best, but at the very least I imagine if she was something along this line, she would be more fun to use and can be used in more teams other than just being there to stun and reduce AP cost.