Training Grounds would be worth grinding if it gave ...

__Adam

bken1234 said:

--Adam said:

Anything that can be exploited will be exploited. And nothing says "exploit me" like an unlimited resource.

I would never expect to be able to grind runes and orbs without limit.  That essentially leaves crystals, which you would only need for PW's and entry fees.  That's not good for the game's bottom line.

We are able to grind runes without a limit. I've done about 20K today alone. 

The point was that unbounded acquisition of orbs/crystals isn't going to happen. I also wouldn't expect a way to convert runes to orbs or crystals precisely because runes are unbounded.

Cards and PWs are the most valuable assets in the game and gated behind premium currencies for a reason. 

babar3355

Never! TG is awful

wereotter said:

Orbs should not be a grindable currency, especially not in Training Grounds.

Training Grounds is already a place where if you have a large collection of legacy cards, you're going to win. If you don't, you're going to struggle. Awarding orbs for free non-duplicate cards to people who can most efficiently farm it because they have a strong collection of cards is a system where those who have will get more and those who don't will fall behind.

This is exactly the kind of thing that we don't want.

I can't disagree with this analysis any more.

This only gives veteran players a short term advantage in expanding their collection, but would mostly benefit newer players.  I know lots of veteran players who already have a full collection of non-elite cards (i.e. a ceiling).  However, newer players might have few if any.  And frankly, being able to grind up a collection of just the Origins mythics would be a really big deal for these players.

I am of the mindset that all players should have a realistic shot at collecting every card in the game with enough time, effort and money.  And although, you are arguing that this favors the "rich and fat", it would ultimately be much more impactful to the "poor but hungry".  1 Gaea's Revenge for them is a lot more important than the 5th mythic dino for veterans.

Mburn7

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

Orbs should not be a grindable currency, especially not in Training Grounds.

Training Grounds is already a place where if you have a large collection of legacy cards, you're going to win. If you don't, you're going to struggle. Awarding orbs for free non-duplicate cards to people who can most efficiently farm it because they have a strong collection of cards is a system where those who have will get more and those who don't will fall behind.

This is exactly the kind of thing that we don't want.

I can't disagree with this analysis any more.

This only gives veteran players a short term advantage in expanding their collection, but would mostly benefit newer players.  I know lots of veteran players who already have a full collection of non-elite cards (i.e. a ceiling).  However, newer players might have few if any.  And frankly, being able to grind up a collection of just the Origins mythics would be a really big deal for these players.

I am of the mindset that all players should have a realistic shot at collecting every card in the game with enough time, effort and money.  And although, you are arguing that this favors the "rich and fat", it would ultimately be much more impactful to the "poor but hungry".  1 Gaea's Revenge for them is a lot more important than the 5th mythic dino for veterans.

How about a compromise?  You get orbs from TG, but they can only be used on Origins and Legacy cards (full disclosure: I do not know an easy way to enforce this without adding another currency).

That way you can grind all you want, but it won't give a huge advantage in most events, just a fun way to fill out your collection.

DumasAG

5 orbs per game won

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

Orbs should not be a grindable currency, especially not in Training Grounds.

Training Grounds is already a place where if you have a large collection of legacy cards, you're going to win. If you don't, you're going to struggle. Awarding orbs for free non-duplicate cards to people who can most efficiently farm it because they have a strong collection of cards is a system where those who have will get more and those who don't will fall behind.

This is exactly the kind of thing that we don't want.

I can't disagree with this analysis any more.

This only gives veteran players a short term advantage in expanding their collection, but would mostly benefit newer players.  I know lots of veteran players who already have a full collection of non-elite cards (i.e. a ceiling).  However, newer players might have few if any.  And frankly, being able to grind up a collection of just the Origins mythics would be a really big deal for these players.

I am of the mindset that all players should have a realistic shot at collecting every card in the game with enough time, effort and money.  And although, you are arguing that this favors the "rich and fat", it would ultimately be much more impactful to the "poor but hungry".  1 Gaea's Revenge for them is a lot more important than the 5th mythic dino for veterans.

Over the lifespan of this game, I have seen one suggestion float up again and again, and I guess now might be another good time to dredge it up.

Do any current players have a problem with Origins being free and available to all players? This gives everyone, new and old, access to every card in the base set of the game, and thus gives a bench-mark for competitiveness. If we're always arguing that new players need a way to grind for Origins, how about we stop that and just give it to them.

This doesn't solve the problem of needing a fun (or at least rewarding on the basis of time-spent) way to grind orbs for players to flesh out their collections. But maybe we can stop using "new players won't be competitive enough to grind with veterans" as a crutch to stall the conversation?

bk1234

DumasAG said:

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

Orbs should not be a grindable currency, especially not in Training Grounds.

Training Grounds is already a place where if you have a large collection of legacy cards, you're going to win. If you don't, you're going to struggle. Awarding orbs for free non-duplicate cards to people who can most efficiently farm it because they have a strong collection of cards is a system where those who have will get more and those who don't will fall behind.

This is exactly the kind of thing that we don't want.

I can't disagree with this analysis any more.

This only gives veteran players a short term advantage in expanding their collection, but would mostly benefit newer players.  I know lots of veteran players who already have a full collection of non-elite cards (i.e. a ceiling).  However, newer players might have few if any.  And frankly, being able to grind up a collection of just the Origins mythics would be a really big deal for these players.

I am of the mindset that all players should have a realistic shot at collecting every card in the game with enough time, effort and money.  And although, you are arguing that this favors the "rich and fat", it would ultimately be much more impactful to the "poor but hungry".  1 Gaea's Revenge for them is a lot more important than the 5th mythic dino for veterans.

Over the lifespan of this game, I have seen one suggestion float up again and again, and I guess now might be another good time to dredge it up.

Do any current players have a problem with Origins being free and available to all players? This gives everyone, new and old, access to every card in the base set of the game, and thus gives a bench-mark for competitiveness. If we're always arguing that new players need a way to grind for Origins, how about we stop that and just give it to them.

This doesn't solve the problem of needing a fun (or at least rewarding on the basis of time-spent) way to grind orbs for players to flesh out their collections. But maybe we can stop using "new players won't be competitive enough to grind with veterans" as a crutch to stall the conversation?

I can't speak for everyone, but I do have a problem with Origins being available instantly to everyone.

It's taken me 2.5 years to build the collection I have -- I think this should be earned. I think all things should be earned -- however new and mid level players don't have the same opportunities that vets have -- so I think those opportunities should be given. 2.5 years from now, a player starting today will not have the collection that I presently have. That isn't ok. 

Mburn7

DumasAG said:

babar3355 said:

wereotter said:

Orbs should not be a grindable currency, especially not in Training Grounds.

Training Grounds is already a place where if you have a large collection of legacy cards, you're going to win. If you don't, you're going to struggle. Awarding orbs for free non-duplicate cards to people who can most efficiently farm it because they have a strong collection of cards is a system where those who have will get more and those who don't will fall behind.

This is exactly the kind of thing that we don't want.

I can't disagree with this analysis any more.

This only gives veteran players a short term advantage in expanding their collection, but would mostly benefit newer players.  I know lots of veteran players who already have a full collection of non-elite cards (i.e. a ceiling).  However, newer players might have few if any.  And frankly, being able to grind up a collection of just the Origins mythics would be a really big deal for these players.

I am of the mindset that all players should have a realistic shot at collecting every card in the game with enough time, effort and money.  And although, you are arguing that this favors the "rich and fat", it would ultimately be much more impactful to the "poor but hungry".  1 Gaea's Revenge for them is a lot more important than the 5th mythic dino for veterans.

Over the lifespan of this game, I have seen one suggestion float up again and again, and I guess now might be another good time to dredge it up.

Do any current players have a problem with Origins being free and available to all players? This gives everyone, new and old, access to every card in the base set of the game, and thus gives a bench-mark for competitiveness. If we're always arguing that new players need a way to grind for Origins, how about we stop that and just give it to them.

I can only ever recall seeing this as all Origins Commons and Uncommons being available, not all cards.
Giving every player every Origins card would not be very good for the game.

Maybe a couple rares and mythics to give a baseline, but certainly not all.

Laeuftbeidir

My main concern would be the learning curve for new players - imagine you had all those cards from the beginning :that's too much.
But they could throw in way more origins boosters for bronze level players, just make it more accessible.
To the main topic. I like the idea to combine tg with daily challenges, maybe even weekly on top. Why not "win 50 pvp battles" for a booster or a rare?

babar3355

Never! TG is awful

Laeuftbeidir said:

My main concern would be the learning curve for new players - imagine you had all those cards from the beginning :that's too much.
But they could throw in way more origins boosters for bronze level players, just make it more accessible.
To the main topic. I like the idea to combine tg with daily challenges, maybe even weekly on top. Why not "win 50 pvp battles" for a booster or a rare?

This is also my stance on that concept.  I don't actually care that my "lead" is protected as far as card collection.  I just think it wouldnt be good for the game.

 Arguably, @DumasAG that's kind of what they did for Origins.  Except instead of giving them away they made them an isolated set which can be crafted at far less than the original cost.  We want players to learn to play with the mechanics at the onset of the game without being able to just drop GR from the very first story mode encounter.  However, we also want them to have these base cards in a reasonable timeframe.  I think a fair argument is, that at 3000 orbs per card and with the extremely slow progress of newer players, it could take a year of playing to just collect these cards.  Meanwhile, 3-4 more sets have dropped. Not reasonable.

FindingHeart8

jimpark said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I like training grounds but a huge orb reward could be abused.

but as it is I feel like we as players could use a few more orbs than we are currently getting.

At 3 orbs per win, you would have to play 1,000 matches to earn a legacy mythic.

I guess by then I'd have to agree that player would have rightly earned that mythic by such a huge contribution of time, but is ultimately fair to other players who don't have all the extra time to dedicate?

I dunno...it's tricky.  Here's a picture of a turtle.

I guess 3-5 orbs is fine. But I agree about the whole people having time vs those that dont and about the whole 1000 games to get 1 mythic deal.

On the other hand, dont want another grindy little feature. Ive got 90 mythics in legacy i need to craft... Either way its not going to happen. Everything feels so stingy in this game. Sigh. Man, i have been playing a year now but imagine new players. I will never get to craft my legacy cards and it seems the same will be true for newer players. Tsk tsk.

I am lost as to what needs to be done now. The game has come such a long ways for the better but honestly quiting this game as a whole would reduce a lot of stress for me and allow me to actually level up in real life. Hmmm sorry started ranting. 

I get what you're saying.  Honestly I feel like I was so much more successful in life before mtgpq.

And you make a good point, with the rate at new sets have been coming out it's a steep climb to even collect the majority of mythics that have moved to legacy, and with the dupe-rate of pink-crystal mythics being high, we've got more mythics coming out than our ability to ever obtain.

I guess an ideal would be to have orbs obtainable in a way that allows all players a chance and not making it so you'd have to win 1,000 matches for 1 mythic.  So a sizable amount of orbs as an event reward, for example, instead of through training grounds.

GrizzoMtGPQ

5 orbs per game won

babar3355 said:

Laeuftbeidir said:

My main concern would be the learning curve for new players - imagine you had all those cards from the beginning :that's too much.
But they could throw in way more origins boosters for bronze level players, just make it more accessible.
To the main topic. I like the idea to combine tg with daily challenges, maybe even weekly on top. Why not "win 50 pvp battles" for a booster or a rare?

This is also my stance on that concept.  I don't actually care that my "lead" is protected as far as card collection.  I just think it wouldnt be good for the game.

 Arguably, @DumasAG that's kind of what they did for Origins.  Except instead of giving them away they made them an isolated set which can be crafted at far less than the original cost.  We want players to learn to play with the mechanics at the onset of the game without being able to just drop GR from the very first story mode encounter.  However, we also want them to have these base cards in a reasonable timeframe.  I think a fair argument is, that at 3000 orbs per card and with the extremely slow progress of newer players, it could take a year of playing to just collect these cards.  Meanwhile, 3-4 more sets have dropped. Not reasonable.

I also no longer care about protecting my lead. When booster crafting came out this was a real concern that we had. That starfield decks, Gaea's Revenge, and Hixus would run rampant in events. And it came true. You see these cards all the time now. And, it doesn't matter. You build for the meta. The only issue with people having "Old God" access to all cards is that some decks are broken AF and that needs to be addressed by Oktagon. Having a path to get all the cards is good for this game. I'd like it if more people could do it. Only those of us here from the beginning and in a top 10 from the outset are likely holding all the cards. Bring it on. Let more people storm the heavens.

FindingHeart8

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

babar3355 said:

Laeuftbeidir said:

My main concern would be the learning curve for new players - imagine you had all those cards from the beginning :that's too much.
But they could throw in way more origins boosters for bronze level players, just make it more accessible.
To the main topic. I like the idea to combine tg with daily challenges, maybe even weekly on top. Why not "win 50 pvp battles" for a booster or a rare?

This is also my stance on that concept.  I don't actually care that my "lead" is protected as far as card collection.  I just think it wouldnt be good for the game.

 Arguably, @DumasAG that's kind of what they did for Origins.  Except instead of giving them away they made them an isolated set which can be crafted at far less than the original cost.  We want players to learn to play with the mechanics at the onset of the game without being able to just drop GR from the very first story mode encounter.  However, we also want them to have these base cards in a reasonable timeframe.  I think a fair argument is, that at 3000 orbs per card and with the extremely slow progress of newer players, it could take a year of playing to just collect these cards.  Meanwhile, 3-4 more sets have dropped. Not reasonable.

I also no longer care about protecting my lead. When booster crafting came out this was a real concern that we had. That starfield decks, Gaea's Revenge, and Hixus would run rampant in events. And it came true. You see these cards all the time now. And, it doesn't matter. You build for the meta. The only issue with people having "Old God" access to all cards is that some decks are broken AF and that needs to be addressed by Oktagon. Having a path to get all the cards is good for this game. I'd like it if more people could do it. Only those of us here from the beginning and in a top 10 from the outset are likely holding all the cards. Bring it on. Let more people storm the heavens.

[MOD NOTE] Insult Removed -- BK [//MOD NOTE]

I like the "Old God" cards as you would word it, it means quick battles.  I don't want every match to expect a half-hour or more of my life.  Like many games, after you level your character up a certain amount and invest enough time, certain rookie fields (TG) should be easier for you.

TomB

I think that, instead of giving Orbs as rewards, they should give 1 card boosters. This way, a player with a smaller card collection might get something they were missing while a player who already has most of the cards will get Orbs from the dupes. Wouldn't that help everyone and provide incentive for grinding?

Aeroplane

TG should at least match Heroic Encounters for runes at 250. Daily Progression or/and Objectives rewards - free basic booster at 10 wins , 2500 runes at 20 wins .... 2500 runes for 10 wins in a row, win a match with only supports and spells... They could even promote their new PWs with win a match with Vraska for a basic booster. I don't expect them to give the world away , but it would fill the void for players who would like some interesting challenges, coalitions wouldn't feel obliged to play if they don't have time and have the pressure to always having events going.
 Its important to create a solid game when there is always something to do ,no matter how small the reward or goal, anytime you log in instead of only providing Heroic Encounters to grind.

Kinesia

Never! TG is awful

Training grounds would honestly be improved just by it _actually_ giving you the 50 runes per loss that it's meant to... The other numbers need adjustment, sure, but there's a confirmed bug involved too that hasn't been dealt with.

DumasAG

5 orbs per game won

Kinesia said:

Training grounds would honestly be improved just by it _actually_ giving you the 50 runes per loss that it's meant to... The other numbers need adjustment, sure, but there's a confirmed bug involved too that hasn't been dealt with.

Assuming it worked correctly, do you actually have to take the loss to get the runes? Or can you concede and get the runes? Cause I can concede really fast...

babar3355

Never! TG is awful

Well, you don't get anything for surrendering.  But conceivably you could surrender, fight with 10 hp, lose, then switch to another PW and repeat.

DBJones

5 orbs per game won

The first Story Mode battle gives you 100 runes per win. I don't think losing in Training Grounds would be twice as fast as winning that.

Irishme

3 orbs per game won

It should give 300-500 per win or......I think there should be more win teirs, maybe up to 10 with mana runes being prizes.  

bk1234

[MOD NOTE] If you would like to continue a discussion over 30 days old, please open a new discussion and link to the original one. Also please ensure any suspected bugs are posted in the Bugs & Technical Issues subforum. Thank you! [//MOD NOTE]