A Nicol for your thoughts...

Kinesia

I've been thinking... The issue with Bolas and his first isn't just the built in destruction, it's that it _totally_ changes the timing and expectations of playing against Greg.

Knowing that Bolas always has destruction on hand is one thing, but because Greg plays creatures then supports then spells, creature destruction is one of the _last_ things we expect to see, there are exceptions and cascades and the like, sure, but we _expect_ to get a turn or two out of creatures because in every other situation we actually do. Bolas totally breaks the normal feel of playing with a creature deck.
If he used his other abilitiies it would be better not worse to play against.

Vraska with supports is similar but doesn't make me as angry even though I play with heaps of supports. Possibly because there are lots of cheap supports but hardly any usable cheap creatures.

Mainloop25

Just build and/or play around it. We do it with Koth, we play around Liliana 1, and to a lesser extent we build around Elspeth. Shouldn't be that different to do that with Bolas. Will be really interesting once everyone has Karn, because you won't know what to expect. 

Mainloop25

The only time I have trouble playing creatures against Bolas is when I have too little creatures, and too expensive creatures, and too little ramp. Those are easy problems to remedy. 

morgue427

bolas is easier is try to have  a low cost weene creature to use up his kill when he has enough loyalty then next round put the better one out and wail on him till it comes up again, easier said than done i know but works for me usually.

Matthew

I've never had a problem with Bolas spamming his first. I think it's perfectly priced at 9 loyalty. This means that it doesn't turn into the every single turn nonsense that has been happening with Kiora lately, where she will use her first even if she can use her ultimate. It also means that if you're maximizing your gem matches, you'll certainly get creatures into play long enough to hit the opponent with them a few times. And, if the gems don't go your way, well, I'm sorry to say, but that's just how this game goes sometimes.

If you're really that frustrated by the ability, then think of different cards you can sideboard whenever you see you've lined up against him.

octal9

Mainloop25 said:

Will be really interesting once everyone has Karn, because you won't know what to expect. 

Karn has difficulty using his first ability if his hand is full and he never uses his second. Expect to see his third a lot.

ZW2007-

Bolas will use his second if you let him get enough loyalty most of the time. I always check his loyalty before dropping a big fatty. Generally you can wait him out and let him make some zombies.

Mainloop25

octal9 said:

Mainloop25 said:

Will be really interesting once everyone has Karn, because you won't know what to expect. 

Karn has difficulty using his first ability if his hand is full and he never uses his second. Expect to see his third a lot.

I just meant in terms of what to sideboard for. With Bolas your wincons probably shouldn't be all creature based, Elspeth pack support destruction etc. I don't see there being a template to follow to beat Karn like some of the other pw's. 

Kinesia

I haven't seen him make zombies for a long time, I'd far prefer that! I thought most of the later abilities were disabled after the lobotomy since I can't recall anyone playing anything except their first since...

And _yes_ I can play around it and I do.

I'm just saying that for _us_ Bolas first just becomes an additional option, it adds to what we can do but doesn't change it a lot, but for Greg it effectively changes the priorities of the AI and therefore our total experience when playing against him.

I will have to see for sure if I can get him to make zombie babies instead, since I thought that option had been taken away.


But, yes, for us it's "add occasional destroy", for Greg it's "prioritise destroy" which end up playing differently.



Using all abilities was the best part of updated Greg, it was interesting and NOT automatically harder. The superior matching was ok by itself but it led to more cascades (along with some other changes). If they let Greg use all the other abilities but don't put the matching back it's probably a nicer compromise than the current world.

Tilwin90

Bolas's ability costs 9 so although at times he fires it off quickly, other times it seems like it takes forever.
It's a clock I admittedly enjoy. If I put all the eggs in one basket, I'm not surprised I get blown up.
Anticipate... There are MUCH worse things than Bolas's first ability (such as Sphinx's Decree that totally shuts down strategies)

andrewvanmarle

I tend to use sirens ruse to protect the creature I want to keep and put forth a sacrificial lamb for bolas to waste his power on

Mainloop25

andrewvanmarle said:

I tend to use sirens ruse to protect the creature I want to keep and put forth a sacrificial lamb for bolas to waste his power on

Is that the spell that gives your creature hexproof for a turn? That's pretty clever.

FindingHeart8

I generally roll my eyes when I'm play a node with the "lose X or less creatures," and Bolas winds up being my opponent.

Well there goes THAT objective

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

I generally roll my eyes when I'm play a node with the "lose X or less creatures," and Bolas winds up being my opponent.

Well there goes THAT objective

Usually I run creatureless on those nodes for that specific reason.  Or I just spam GR

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I generally roll my eyes when I'm play a node with the "lose X or less creatures," and Bolas winds up being my opponent.

Well there goes THAT objective

Usually I run creatureless on those nodes for that specific reason.  Or I just spam GR

yeah that's generally what I aim for too, except when that objective coincides with "cast X or more creatures during a single fight"

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I generally roll my eyes when I'm play a node with the "lose X or less creatures," and Bolas winds up being my opponent.

Well there goes THAT objective

Usually I run creatureless on those nodes for that specific reason.  Or I just spam GR

yeah that's generally what I aim for too, except when that objective coincides with "cast X or more creatures during a single fight"

See:  Spam GR (or the Riverwinder, but he's less fun)

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I generally roll my eyes when I'm play a node with the "lose X or less creatures," and Bolas winds up being my opponent.

Well there goes THAT objective

Usually I run creatureless on those nodes for that specific reason.  Or I just spam GR

yeah that's generally what I aim for too, except when that objective coincides with "cast X or more creatures during a single fight"

See:  Spam GR (or the Riverwinder, but he's less fun)

haha yeah this is true, but that indestructible support that locks down your opponent's first creature and doesn't target really can lock GR down (Greg seems to know how to cascade into it every time lol)

wereotter

I just run 100% hexproof creatures against Bolas, but honestly that deck is getting pretty dull since it sticks you always into blue-green planeswalkers, and there's not that many in standard you can effectively use. This came about because it seems every Bolas deck I play the AI uses his first ability with impunity, and the deck itself still carries 2-3 unique kill target creature spells.

Also this may just be that my luck is worse than others, but I can't count how many times I've seen Bolas kill my creatures as soon as they hit the field every single time. Like I'll put something out the turn after he kills something, then he cascades into an extra swap and kills the one I just played. I do think his ability is too powerful, and not just that ability but really all of them when combined with the scope of cards he can pull from.

Kinesia

We learn, we adjust, we work around things, all that is fine.

I guess my main point that I want recognised is that this AI is very rigid and inflexible currently so the planeswalker abilities are _not_ just abilities, they explicitly change the way the AI plays, it is very very important they aren't designed just from a player perspective but from an AI perspective too.


Vraska isn't as bad because we aren't limited to 3 support slots. Her ability doesn't destroy a third of our board presence.
I personally feel Nicol goes overboard and would be better at -5/-5 instead of destroy, but that's not the point of the argument.

The point is just that these abilities affect the AI hugely and some of that needs looking at long term.

Sirchombli

You just have to play around it. Don't ram your creatures into it. If you wait the extra turn or two , he will use his second. Every time . Even with 3 creatures and a full hand. Bolas is annoying because you have to play a certain way against him . He's annoying because he's ubiquitous . Neither of these things are problems with his design. We get that you don't like playing against him . I don't think anybody does . That's not a reason to cry for a nerf. 

span_argoman

Kinesia said:

We learn, we adjust, we work around things, all that is fine.

I guess my main point that I want recognised is that this AI is very rigid and inflexible currently so the planeswalker abilities are _not_ just abilities, they explicitly change the way the AI plays, it is very very important they aren't designed just from a player perspective but from an AI perspective too.


Vraska isn't as bad because we aren't limited to 3 support slots. Her ability doesn't destroy a third of our board presence.
I personally feel Nicol goes overboard and would be better at -5/-5 instead of destroy, but that's not the point of the argument.

The point is just that these abilities affect the AI hugely and some of that needs looking at long term.

I would have thought the point should be that the AI's setting should be looked at long term instead of being lobotomised like it is now. Why cater long-term design, which affects the player experience drastically, to something that can be changed willy-nilly as has been shown in the past two AI revisions?