On Win Based Rewards vs Point Based Rewards in Versus.

HoundofShadow

Some characters are perceived to be an easier target compared to another.

That's why there's a mismatch of expectation. PvE was meant to fulfill this expectation of yours:

"I expect to be able to get full progression rewards if I put in the effort despite being a casual player."

Given the structure of PvP, it's not meant to fulfill this part of your expectation.

The resistance I'm refering to is point regression. There's no resistance to getting the progression rewards in win-based system. You merely hit the number of wins required and get the progression reward. Top players take about 20 wins or less to get the 4* covers (900). So, they are spending double the effort to get the same reward. I think it's not easy to determine a good win rate for the top players and the rest of the players.

A normal win rate (20 wins) for the top players = the rest of the players benefiting from the low win rate.

A normal win rate (40 wins) for normal players = top players "suffering" from needing high number of win rates.

Put it at 20, 25 or 30 and only the rest of the players benefits, and it make the top rewards look cheap. I believe they factored in point regression when they determined the win rate. 

Besides, they are going to take away the CP if they goes back to win-based and if they can resolve the number of wins needed. 



Again, it's about expectation. Under the win-based system, it's a guaranteed way to get 4* covers for everyone. If you can't get the 4* covers in the previous PvP placement, you are guaranteed one in the next PvP. It's like placing top 1 in SCL 6. 

The players are not gated. They have to make a choice. I've already explained the rationale for reducing the rewards for Casual Players simply because they do not face any point regression. it's reasonable to say guaranteed rewards are usually not as attractive as rewards that come with risk along the way in a competition. 

In your opinion, what's a good win rate for each reward up till the 4* cover that would satisfy most of the players, and yet not make it easy for the non-top players if developers were to bring win-based system back?

Jwallyr

"Some characters are perceived to be an easier target compared to another.

That's why there's a mismatch of expectation. PvE was meant to fulfill this expectation of yours:

"I expect to be able to get full progression rewards if I put in the effort despite being a casual player."

Given the structure of PvP, it's not meant to fulfill this part of your expectation."

According to whom? Clearly there's a competitive structure in story mode that is *not* simply "put in the effort and you get the full rewards", and it's called placement. I can flip your argument around and say that the presence of placement in Story mode indicates that "it's not meant to fulfill the expectation of a casual mode" despite the presence of progression rewards.

Ultimately you're extrapolating intentions that are not clearly communicated by the devs based on the parts of the data you like, and ignoring the parts you don't. That leaves your argument on very shaky grounds.

The resistance I'm refering to is point regression. There's no resistance to getting the progression rewards in win-based system. You merely hit the number of wins required and get the progression reward. Top players take about 20 wins or less to get the 4* covers (900). So, they are spending double the effort to get the same reward. I think it's not easy to determine a good win rate for the top players and the rest of the players.

I addressed this argument in my very first post on the topic. The "raw numbers of wins" system has clear flaws, and a non-regressive point-based progression system would alleviate the increased effort on high-end players while still permitting low-end players the option to grit their teeth and put in what is clearly a much more concerted effort to receive appropriate progression rewards for their brackets.

There's still the issue that CLs in versus mean virtually nothing except arbitrary limits on your rewards, and that's an entirely separate problem from monodirectional progression vs gain-and-loss progression.

Besides, they are going to take away the CP if they goes back to win-based and if they can resolve the number of wins needed.

You're once again making assumptions based on no/poor data. It's clear that the removal of CP from the original test of win-based progression was one of the major problems that the preexisting group of competitive versus players had with the change, and there's fundamentally zero reason that D3 would have to do that. A sane progression rewards system would allow existing players to get essentially the same rewards while opening up progression rewards to low-end players willing to do the much greater amounts of raw grinding just to make them happen. There's no objective reason they would have to remove rewards in the process.

Again, it's about expectation. Under the win-based system, it's a guaranteed way to get 4* covers for everyone. If you can't get the 4* covers in the previous PvP placement, you are guaranteed one in the next PvP. It's like placing top 1 in SCL 6.

I addressed this issue in the previous comment about brackets. In a reasonable MMR system, the players would be incentivized to pick the Cl that gives them the best rewards that they can reasonably achieve. The current system is completely broken in this respect, as the CLs have essentially no impact on who you will fight and the lower CLs simply have worse rewards (that may continue to be unachievable anyway due to your still-developing roster, etc).

Once again, this has zero to do with progression vs. placement and everything to do with the other broken things about Versus mode.

The players are not gated. They have to make a choice. I've already explained the rationale for reducing the rewards for Casual Players simply because they do not face any point regression. it's reasonable to say guaranteed rewards are usually not as attractive as rewards that come with risk along the way in a competition.

Right... which is why there's already a separate, additional set of rewards that is not available to progression-only caliber players. It's called "Placement.

You seem to want to disadvantage casual players even more than they already are in the existing placement/progression dual system, and I can't tell why other than some sort of punitive distaste for the idea of a set of rewards that's not ultimately based on the same fundamentals as placement.

In your opinion, what's a good win rate for each reward up till the 4* cover that would satisfy most of the players, and yet not make it easy for the non-top players if developers were to bring win-based system back?

Already discussed that there's multiple ways to have a non-regressive "progression" rewards system. It could be based on the current point totals, or a sliding set of wins based on MMR/Roster/Shield Level, or whatever other progression variable you would like. The only important change is that players be given an option to put in the time and get progression rewards without constant backsliding, which is the primary reason casual players hate versus "progression" rewards.

Jwallyr

Frankly, aesthetocyst, that's the only argument I find convincing. Not that a win-based progression system doesn't make sense, or that it can't be implemented in such a fashion to reward casuals while not penalizing the high-level players for whom 40 wins was too much play.

No, that the game's financial engine provides an incentive for perpetuation of player-hostile policies in some respects.

Le sigh. "Free" games.

HoundofShadow

No, that the game's financial engine provides an incentive for perpetuation of player-hostile policies in some respects. 

Le sigh. "Free" games.

Maybe you could volunteer to pay the salary of the developers, the licensing cost, the servers etc? They are running a business, not a charity organisation. Naturally, their main goal is to make profit. Can you name me a big corporation that sell things at cost price or below cost price, don't mind not making any profits and just want to make their customers happy? Like I said, it's about managing expectation. 

In many competitions, putting 100% effort alone isn't enough to let you walk into the semi-final or even let you walk into top 3. Veterans (High ranking) get beaten by newcomers (lower ranking). It happens. It's called upset. Then, players drop in ranking. I think you might find this familiar. It happens in MPQ PvP. PvP is competitive.

Regarding the 15cp, I don't think they would want to "give" away a Latest Legend Token equivalent (25cp) per PvP easily. By "easily", I mean players who had 0% probability of getting 15cp are getting it in a guaranteed away, if they leave the 15cp alone in the previous run. Only those on top deserve it. They fought their way up tactically and make use of the elements available in PvP to hit the 900 or 1200 points. Chances are they could leave the 15cp in progression, like you said, and the minimum win is 65. 850 to 900 = 4 wins needed. There would still be players, who don't mind grinding, just for the last 15cp. In the end, it's going to be worth it for players who can't get the last 15cp or even the first 10 cp in the current system because it's like getting a Latest Legendary Token for trying hard enough. Trying hard is not enough in any competition. 

Crnch73

Can we all just agree that some changes would be nice? Whether it’s MMR, rewards, whatever... it’s still not a great experience in PVP for a lot of people. 

Im a day 900+ player, 45ish champed 4s, one champed 5 (gambit). 900 points is doable if I do the “bull rush” method with an hour or so left, but that requires a lot of time spent on this game daily. 

In in all honesty, I rarely pay attention to the placement rewards. I know I’m not getting the top rewards and I know I don’t deserve them either. But it is pretty disheartening to play and get knocked around no matter what. 

I have over 24 hours left in the Storm pvp. I am using gambit, storm (unboosted is at 264), and champed Chulk. (I didn’t find much defensive or speed success with my champed wasp or gwenpool as gambit team mates. ) I was sitting at about 320 points and ranked #120... just trying to make the final climb less difficult...and I got smashed by teams with 2 champed 5s until I was back under 150. This obviously happens to everyone so I’m not saying “poor me”... but I do say “well that’s not fun”. I wasn’t going to shield at 320 points, I had a decent team... somehow it’s not enough. No matter what, it’s not enough. 

So... I just would like a change. Doesn’t have to be huge, doesn’t have to try to fix all the issues. I just would like to see something to slightly improve my gameplay experience. Eventually, if I can never reach the carrot at the end of the stick, chasing it becomes tedious.