On Win Based Rewards vs Point Based Rewards in Versus.

24

Comments

  • Flydecoder
    Flydecoder Posts: 32 Just Dropped In
    Because you are part of the problem... if you attack me I cannot attack you back AND you can defeat my team substantially faster.
    I often go into a battle that will be challengong but fair and come out below my prior score since someone with a killer 2x 5star team has defeated me twice... 

    This prevents me and many others from reaching the top tier prize earning the 15CP that would help get me up to the 5 star level.

    People like myself and the OP are coming here making suggestions to make the game more playable as we have to deal with competitors like yourself... we make suggestions and you shut them down as a means of keeping us down.

    Whether you earned it or bought it you are in a dominant position... good on you... but I think you should stop trying to prevent the rest of us from enjoying the game as we have frustrations being completely dominated by other players, like yourself.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Hahahaha, wow, making it personal? 

    I sometimes wished i ever saw any 4* teams... From such accusations, i might have actually went looking for you, just to send some red hello cards... but its all 5* for me so you dont have to worry. And if you wont buy or save up some Hero points to shield like all others that made the transition to 5* land, im sure you’ll never show up in my nodes anyway.

    Your short sightenedness is stunning by the way, if you really think your suggestions wont effect me and many other that shiver by the shear thought... I have every right to shoot ideas that will make pvp much, much less playable. So come up with an idea that all like, or expect others to critisize you...
  • Flydecoder
    Flydecoder Posts: 32 Just Dropped In
    I was talking about players like you... not personal dominant players dominate.

    I am not crying saying "why cant I make top 5"... i just want to be able to play and achieve top rewards.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    I was talking about players like you... not personal dominant players dominate.

    I am not crying saying "why cant I make top 5"... i just want to be able to play and achieve top rewards.
    Yeah, “because you are part of the problem” was surely not meant at me... lol, let’s stay honest at least...

    anyway, it has been explained to you in a couple topics now, why your idea wont work and you’ve handed a solution all others have used. Please take your loss......
  • SpecSpecter
    SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    edited April 2018
    Smart80 said:
    I have every right to shoot ideas that will make pvp much, much less playable. So come up with an idea that all like, or expect others to critisize you...
    Less playable for some, much playable for others. It's a matter of prospective.

    Smart80 said:
    anyway, it has been explained to you in a couple topics now, why your idea wont work and you’ve handed a solution all others have used. Please take your loss......
    Please, while some have made an effort (maybe not you specifically, but some) to make points in defense of the Point Based system I still rarely see one that makes me waver in believing the Win Based system is much better overall. I mean most points in the defense of the Point Based system seem more or less to come down to "I'm at the top of the game and want it to stay that way, how dare you suggest making it easier to reach my level!" Or maybe to a more a lesser extent "I have to scratch and claw my way to get this far and anyone who didn't go through the same doesn't deserve to be here".

    Not to make it sound like I consider it personal, I don't, but yes you are kind of part of the problem from my prospective. Not in a "Wah, 5* players keep beating me up!" kind of way but merely the mentality of "Well I have what *I* want, so why should I care about making things better off for others".
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    I dont say people shouldnt want to make it more playable to them. I say if their suggestion makes it worse for me, im very much entitled to go against it in here. Not that weird, right?

    Im also not worried about people reaching my level either, all welcome. But it doesnt have to be easier to get there than i had it either. Not everybody can reach top prize, its not a defeat, if you realise your just not ready yet... And players that need 20 minutes per hop, arent probably ready to reach it either.

    But mainly, the win based system is flawed because you need to get wins and points. I know most of you dont care about placement, but for those that do, its very annoying to reach the points you normally need for certain placement, but still needing 10 or so more wins, so needing more hops or being vulnerable for lot longer... (and thats not mentioning how much less cp was shared in those test)


  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Just saw this. I was the one who mentioned dilution of players in PvP. I mentioned it in response to your suggestion of letting players choose between win-based and points-based system. Later, you responded that the players would have to stick with the chosen system until the end of the season, which is reasonable.

    This system could split up the number of players and could possibly affect placement and progression rewards that are given out for both systems in a season in the long run.

    Suppose your dual-system are used over time (at least 2 seasons because players who have not tried win-based system would try it out due to curiosity), chances are more players are likely to shift to win-based system because it is much easier to achieve the progression rewards compared to a point-based system, as admitted by some proponents of win-based system. 
  • SpecSpecter
    SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    Okay, thank you, this is more of what i wanted. Up to this point all you really said was "the game shouldn't make it easier for people to get the higher rewards", which I didn't really see as very constructive. I mean I already made it clear that I disagree on that, but I digress.

    Anyways. First off feels like you see Progression rewards and Placement rewards as being parallel paths. I mean, I guess I can't really fault that considering that under the Point Based system they do uses the same points to progress, but I really don't see it that way. Or at maybe rather don't believe they should be that way or even that that's how they were actually intended.

    With the Point Based system, the part that you seem to really like, is that just by the sheer act of working towards placement that you meet and in fact surpass the points needed to complete progression. Personally I see this as a flaw in the system. I mean, it's fine if you are like yourself who place and get both rewards anyways, but all it means is it's essentially rewarding you twice for the same thing. As you yourself said, things shouldn't just be handed to you. Part of why I believe Progression and Placement should be treated as two distinctly separate paths instead of two closely parallel ones is because I believe you should have to work for both of them rather then just getting one for free by sheer virtue of completing the other one.


    Actually let me ask you a question. When battling towards placement, do you gather your points across all three days or do you do it more or less all at the end?
    The Point Based system seems to greatly favor just bum-rushing the event all at the end, after all why build up points early when that just means more time to leave yourself open to being attacked and losing your points (or alternatively more you have to spend on shield to avoid attacks). Stands to reason though, being two different systems, that the same strategy might not work the same with the Win Based system and that you would have to adjust accordingly. For example a Win Based system favors more of a slow build throughout the event (as you do have three days to take case of it after all). First you get the wins you need for progression out of the way and then you start focusing on the points you need for placement, not the other way around. Honestly though with all the fighting you did for progression you should be well over halfway to what you need already anyways.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    It depends on my schedules. I play both styles. I do set a minimum goal of 725 for myself and I do experience net gain of negative points after winning a match past 700. If I'm playing over 3 days, I set small goals and call it a day: 300, 400, 575, 725 etc. 

    I'm not saying that the game shouldn't make it easier for people to get the higher or highest placement rewards. If I am truly against it, I would advocate for the final progression reward in PvE (as high as 30 CP) to be made as difficult to achieve as the 15cp in PvP. When I mean making the top progression reward in PvE difficult to achieve, I don't mean increasing the number of clears, but reducing the points gain for failing certain criteria such that even doing optimal clear will still result in you not getting the final PvE progression reward (up to 30 CP). 

    It is a fact that MPQ provide an option to let players get fabulous rewards easily in PvE. I am benefiting from the easy CP gained and other rewards gained in PvE and I'm not against it. Besides, over the years, the developers have made changes to the game to allow players to have access to more CP such as champing and DP Daily Quest. On a whole, and I mean considering all the game modes available in this game, the developers have actually allowed players to gain more rewards to progress faster. 

    PvP is designed to be competitive by nature. Therefore, there's a high risk, high reward system built into it. This high risk, high reward can be felt by many players, including you and me as we cross the 700 points barrier, with the top prize of 15 CP hanging at 1200.

    The difference between a player who can achieve 15cp for every PvP and a player who can't achieve the 15cp at all in a year is approximately 365/3*15 = 1825, which is equivalent to 91 Classic pulls, 73 LT, or 7 3* with 13 covers). I believe that this 1825 CP difference in a year is necessary to create some kind of control over how fast the different tiers of players can progress. The non-PvP game modes that gives out CP rewards, are one way or another, depends on your views, sort of guaranteed depending on what stage the players are. If they allowed the 15CP in PvP to be guaranteed or easily achieved as well, then there's not much differentiation between PvP and PvE, except that one is fighting against team of of AI-controlled players' teams, and the other goons and specific characters.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Okay, thank you, this is more of what i wanted. Up to this point all you really said was "the game shouldn't make it easier for people to get the higher rewards", which I didn't really see as very constructive. I mean I already made it clear that I disagree on that, but I digress.

    Anyways. First off feels like you see Progression rewards and Placement rewards as being parallel paths. I mean, I guess I can't really fault that considering that under the Point Based system they do uses the same points to progress, but I really don't see it that way. Or at maybe rather don't believe they should be that way or even that that's how they were actually intended.

    With the Point Based system, the part that you seem to really like, is that just by the sheer act of working towards placement that you meet and in fact surpass the points needed to complete progression. Personally I see this as a flaw in the system. I mean, it's fine if you are like yourself who place and get both rewards anyways, but all it means is it's essentially rewarding you twice for the same thing. As you yourself said, things shouldn't just be handed to you. Part of why I believe Progression and Placement should be treated as two distinctly separate paths instead of two closely parallel ones is because I believe you should have to work for both of them rather then just getting one for free by sheer virtue of completing the other one.


    Actually let me ask you a question. When battling towards placement, do you gather your points across all three days or do you do it more or less all at the end?
    The Point Based system seems to greatly favor just bum-rushing the event all at the end, after all why build up points early when that just means more time to leave yourself open to being attacked and losing your points (or alternatively more you have to spend on shield to avoid attacks). Stands to reason though, being two different systems, that the same strategy might not work the same with the Win Based system and that you would have to adjust accordingly. For example a Win Based system favors more of a slow build throughout the event (as you do have three days to take case of it after all). First you get the wins you need for progression out of the way and then you start focusing on the points you need for placement, not the other way around. Honestly though with all the fighting you did for progression you should be well over halfway to what you need already anyways.
    • Off course they are parallel paths. Its 1 event, and who gets furthest wins. Along the way you get some rewards for reaching certain stages. Why would you ever wanna make it into separate paths to make things more complicated?
    • Why would it be a flaw to be able to reach further than progression by working towards placement? In fact, isnt this exactly the problem you are having? That not all are being able to reach progression? 
    • I usually join 24h before the end, climb to 900, float over night, hit retals and climb to 1300 and shield out.. Not looking forward to playing more pvp than that... and selling me halfway whats now all the way, isnt helping your sales pitch..

    Anyway, this is now a boring circle talk... Im out for real now, so please dont direct any question to me from now on.
  • SpecSpecter
    SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    edited April 2018
    See Smart? That just seems like more of that "I have what I want so I don't care that people want differently" attitude. You like the system so you are willing to put the blame on things not working out on the players rather then the system being at fault despite all the people that constantly say otherwise. People want a change but with most changes it might involve *gasp* doing things differently. To expect to behave exactly the same way and get identical results is kind of asinine. But anyways, it's not like my aim really is to convince you specifically. Despite what you may or may not think, this decision isn't exactly squarely in your hands. "Yeah people hate the current system but *I'm* fine with it so the current system should stay as it is" just doesn't work for me.

    As for Hound, I was wondering where you got to.
    Is Versus meant to be competitive? Well, yes. Ultra competitive though? I don't think it is. Placement is the obvious reward for that competitiveness paying off but I don't think Placement is the same, that is more encouragement to play in the first place. You mentioned before that player dilution is a problem and I can only assume that's due to less people playing Versus then it was designed for, and frankly I can't say I'm surprised. I mean the whole reason this thread exists is because I and others dislike the Points system to the point where it's no longer worth the effort. 'High risk, high reward' is a thing, certainly, but that model tends to fall apart when the rewards aren't deemed the risk. I touched on this already before but making Progression less or non competitive would encourage more people to play it which would only help the actual PvPing to run smoother. It would be different if PvP was the main focus of the game, but that clearly isn't the case (otherwise new characters would debut in Versus rather then in Events) and at the end of the day MPQ is just a mere free match-3 mobile game which, honestly, is basically the definition of 'casual'. The fact that players take it to ultra competitive levels is purely a player thing and not, I believe, a function of the game itself. (As a side note: I actually don't really think of competition being the real point in Versus anyways as much as just a means to allow players to go up against player-created hero teams as a challenging alternative to the mooks and Dark Avengers on the Event side of things. I think that if competitiveness was it's primary point that an effort would be made to have players fight directly rather then fighting a computer controlled team of another's making. After all, fighting in Versus is fun... to a degree. That too factors into the 'High risk, high reward' thing and there reaches a point where the joy of playing doesn't match up with the frustration that comes with it. I guess that's part of the reason why the idea of having to battle twice as many fights in the Win system as compared to the Points system doesn't seem like much of a deterrent to me.)
    Or if that's too rambley, PvP can use more of a carrot, and Progression rewards should be that carrot.

    But like I said, it's less my intention is getting things one way or the other, such as getting rid of the Points system in it's entirety in favor of the Win system (as much as I actually honestly wouldn't mind that), I do acknowledge that the Point system has fans and that those fans dislike the Win system maybe just as much as the Win system fans dislike the Point system and that merely stitching from one to the other will satisfy some but dissatisfy others and this whole thing will just start anew from the other direction. Ideally there would be a way to, if not satisfy both sides, maybe at least placate them. I did mention before that I'm looking for a compromise.
    That being said, what about this for a compromise? What about giving the Win system fans the Simultor? It already is less competitive by nature of having no placement reward whatsoever and is basically a mosh-pit of anything-goes fights so cutting it off from everything else and making it purely Win Based probably wouldn't impact much. Oh I'm sure some will complain about the loss of precious potential points, but as I said; Compromise. It's not as if the points needed for progression for the overall season can't be changed to reflect the change anyways.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Your compromise would require Simulator to be disconnected from the Season scoring. It sounds okay to me, and I'm neutral about it. 

    Looking at this from another point of view, I guess they would compare the data of how many players managed to claim all the rewards in a point-based system vs a win-based system. This could play a part in how likely they would implement this. I believe they already have this data available?
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Lmao, yeah, its just me who is against win based pvp, thats why the test was massively shot down... lol

    Drop the “poor us” routine please, get of the forum and spend some more time in game. I broke the barrier with free2play, you should also be able to, just need to patience and skill and playing a little differently...
  • SpecSpecter
    SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    edited April 2018
    *Sigh* Just... forget about the data gathering, Hound, I'm kind of sorry I even brought it up. It's just that seeing how split the players seem to be on Win Based/Point Based systems I was curious just as to how split. Not as if we would actually be shown any of that data even if they did make a point to collect it. The problem with simply polling the forums is that I suspect that wouldn't really give an accurate read on the player base as a whole as I imagine the players that bother to come to the forums would skew heavily Point Based anyways as a more casual player, the kind that the Win Based system favor, wouldn't probably quite so inclined to bother looking into stuff like player strategies or in-depth character data.

    Just for the record though, I can handle the Point Based Versus fine. I wouldn't say I'm too near 5* land just yet but I'm still a pretty solid 4* player (I probably have at least half of them champed at the moment, if not 2/3s). Just because I can handle that kind of play though doesn't mean I have to like it, especially when I think there's a better way already sitting in the wings. I mean, many of my alliance mates have rosters that put mine to shame, 5* champions for days, and they don't like the Point Based Versus any more then I do.
  • Jwallyr
    Jwallyr Posts: 165 Tile Toppler
    Just gonna chime in here real quick: I have heard zero plausible reasons that win-based PvP is worse than the current system. I have heard numerous plausible complaints about the specific implementation of win-based PvP that was tested previously, and these complaints are all utterly trivial to correct for in a variety of ways.

    "It took me too many wins to get full progression compared to previous" => The number of wins required for full progression could be tweaked downward. To more closely adhere to the current system (of which I'm not a fan, but whatever) the devs could instead implement points-based progression in which you lost no points after a loss to allow different tiers of players to advance through the progression rewards at a different pace. Obviously your placement score would have to reflect points lost, but having "progression" reverse such that you lose ground overnight for being attacked is completely stupid.

    "They removed the CP reward when they implemented win-based progression" => Uhhh, return the CP to progression rewards? Easy, easy fix. In addition, the current progression reward structure is basically FUBAR because the lowest CLs have high-end progression rewards that are utter nonsense for characters at that tier, as a 1* or 2* player will never get even close to 900 points, and any player capable of doing so would find a 1* or 2* cover to be a negligible reward. Allowing low-end players to put in the time (and it would be a slog) to slowly climb their way to those rewards would at least give them a reason to bother playing.

    "PvP is supposed to be competitive, play Story if you want progression rewards" => Lawl, story is competitive for the best rewards due to placement as well, and enforces a much more rigid schedule for participation or else you may as well give up entirely, so this complaint is invalid right from the start. Regardless, if players want Versus to be ZOMG COMPETITIVE then either:

    1) Remove progression entirely so we're not tricked into thinking it's intended to be a serious reward structure or
    2) Reduce progression rewards and increase placement rewards.

    BOOM. That simple.

    These are the complaints that occur to me off the top of my head, and they're all either complete nonsense or easily fixed in a proper implementation of a rational win-based system. I'd love to hear any that I may be missing.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Jwallyr said:
    Just gonna chime in here real quick: I have heard zero plausible reasons that win-based PvP is worse than the current system. I have heard numerous plausible complaints about the specific implementation of win-based PvP that was tested previously, and these complaints are all utterly trivial to correct for in a variety of ways.

    "It took me too many wins to get full progression compared to previous" => The number of wins required for full progression could be tweaked downward. To more closely adhere to the current system (of which I'm not a fan, but whatever) the devs could instead implement points-based progression in which you lost no points after a loss to allow different tiers of players to advance through the progression rewards at a different pace. Obviously your placement score would have to reflect points lost, but having "progression" reverse such that you lose ground overnight for being attacked is completely stupid.

    "They removed the CP reward when they implemented win-based progression" => Uhhh, return the CP to progression rewards? Easy, easy fix. In addition, the current progression reward structure is basically FUBAR because the lowest CLs have high-end progression rewards that are utter nonsense for characters at that tier, as a 1* or 2* player will never get even close to 900 points, and any player capable of doing so would find a 1* or 2* cover to be a negligible reward. Allowing low-end players to put in the time (and it would be a slog) to slowly climb their way to those rewards would at least give them a reason to bother playing.

    "PvP is supposed to be competitive, play Story if you want progression rewards" => Lawl, story is competitive for the best rewards due to placement as well, and enforces a much more rigid schedule for participation or else you may as well give up entirely, so this complaint is invalid right from the start. Regardless, if players want Versus to be ZOMG COMPETITIVE then either:

    1) Remove progression entirely so we're not tricked into thinking it's intended to be a serious reward structure or
    2) Reduce progression rewards and increase placement rewards.

    BOOM. That simple.

    These are the complaints that occur to me off the top of my head, and they're all either complete nonsense or easily fixed in a proper implementation of a rational win-based system. I'd love to hear any that I may be missing.
    You missed the most important concern of having to walk an additional path each event, not only points, but also wins... Unless you regard that completely implausible.

    Also, most that hate the current system make it sound as if progression rewards are taken away again, if you drop points. If that was true, it would indeed be weird. But its not, so lets not pretend like that is a horrible injustice.

    But most of all, PvP would even be less Player v Player with win based rewards, as wars and policing your slice would be much less possible. (Ok, bring on the elitist comments...)

    Removing progression could indeed be a fair solution, but wouldnt it be just as easy to ignore that which is out of reach? Or better, make it a goal for the future. Its still an accomplishment to fight everyone and make it to the end of the line, so might as well keep it. Besides, taking something away will surely not be appreciated by anyone.. :-)
  • Jwallyr
    Jwallyr Posts: 165 Tile Toppler
    You missed the most important concern of having to walk an additional path each event, not only points, but also wins... Unless you regard that completely implausible.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I pointed out that win-based progression is perfectly rational, with calibration of the number of required wins being the only real question. I also mentioned that carrying forward the point total from wins and keeping track of "progression points" (i.e. points that don't get removed by enemy attacks) and "placement points" separately addresses lots of other concerns (like the concern that players will attack the easiest-possible wins if they're aimed solely at progression).

    Point being, it doesn't have to be "win-based" or "point-based" to make sense, the important thing is that you don't lose progress for being attacked. That's the fundamental breakdown in the existing "progression" system and any real, rational progression system.

    Also, most that hate the current system make it sound as if progression rewards are taken away again, if you drop points. If that was true, it would indeed be weird. But its not, so lets not pretend like that is a horrible injustice.

    But most of all, PvP would even be less Player v Player with win based rewards, as wars and policing your slice would be much less possible. (Ok, bring on the elitist comments...)

    I'm not aware of a single person alleging that progression rewards are, in fact, taken away when you lose points. What I (and most of my fellow "win-based" PvP proponents) are bothered by is that the progression system allows you to make "backward progress" towards your progression objectives when you are attacked, and therefore the supposed "casual" rewards structure for PvP requires exactly the same tactics as the placement structure, and ultimately you are not able to achieve the "casual" PvP rewards by simply playing consistently, but on your own schedule.

    I'm a free-to-play player aside from VIP and VERY rare real-money purchases, and I will never purchase a shield until/unless I have enough HP to roster every character in the game that I may happen to pull. It's immensely frustrating for me to play for a good while, get my PvP score up to (let's say) 500, and then overnight I'm down to 300. I play a few more hours, and I can maaaaaaybe get to 650 or so; the next morning I'm once again down to 300. I spend the great majority of my play time in PvP simply undoing the damage to my score done overnight, and due to the moronic CL bracketing that goes on, my roster is simply unable to perform at reasonable placement levels so I'm doing this 100% for whatever progression rewards I can manage to scrape.

    So sure, if "progression" is supposed to be placement under a different name, the current system is fine. If "progression" is supposed to actually be progression, a more casual-friendly reward structure where players are not really competing against each other but simply working toward a goal that should be achievable without "competitive" levels of effort... it's completely broken.

    Removing progression could indeed be a fair solution, but wouldnt it be just as easy to ignore that which is out of reach? Or better, make it a goal for the future. Its still an accomplishment to fight everyone and make it to the end of the line, so might as well keep it. Besides, taking something away will surely not be appreciated by anyone.. :-)

    I'm not advocating for progression to be removed, I'm just pointing out that in its current implementation, unachievable progression rewards at low CLs are nothing more than an obnoxious deception being perpetrated on the players. If those rewards are not intended to be possible at low tiers, they should be removed completely so that players are not confused and frustrated at their inability, despite their best efforts and rosters that seem to be in line with the rewards being dangled, to achieve them.

    Obviously the better solution is to rework progression rewards to make sense within the actual CLs that they take place, and to be structured as a rational alternative to progression for characters without the time/skill/desire/rosters to be competitive at high tiers of play. The current system both makes no sense and fails to provide casual players with a reasonable incentive to participate.
  • Ducky
    Ducky Posts: 2,255 Community Moderator
    ***Please tone it down. If the back and forth continues at the rate it's going, I will end up closing the thread and issuing warnings. You can discuss the virtues of each system without getting personal. Thanks!***
  • hunky_funky
    hunky_funky Posts: 111 Tile Toppler
    Haha... Oh this debates, that got to far. Stop lying to yourself people. If in win-based there was cp or LT prize at the end, nobody never sad a word and we played win-based now. It's all about rewards, the rest is excuses.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Haha... Oh this debates, that got to far. Stop lying to yourself people. If in win-based there was cp or LT prize at the end, nobody never sad a word and we played win-based now. It's all about rewards, the rest is excuses.
    This just shows you shouldnt speak for other people...