On Win Based Rewards vs Point Based Rewards in Versus.

SpecSpecter
SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
First off I have to say that I loved the Win Based reward model for Versus they tested out a while ago. Sadly (for me anyways) based on the fact that they never went on to use it I can only guess that most players didn't feel the same. Still, as a casual player that cared nothing for the pissing contest that is leaderboards and placement ranks while I might not claim it was ideal it was close enough that I had no serious complaints. I mean I think the biggest criticism I saw was the complaint that it took longer to get the progression rewards which I personally saw as a rather moot point as 1) that felt like part of the trade off and 2) I was actually getting all of the rewards faster despite needing more fights to earn them as I didn't have to deal with or worry about the aggravation that was getting knocked back to zero if I left myself unshielded for any period of time. It always felt like the difference between 'slow and steady' and 'fast and frantic' and while I can't speak for everyone I definitely will take the one with guaranteed prizes every time. In fact, I would go as far as to say my frustration with the Point Based reward system is that that these days I feel more inclined to avoid PvP altogether.

Anyways like I said, it's not that I don't understand that people like the Point Based reward system better, be it for the competitiveness or the speed of it or whatever, but I do know that I'm certainly not alone in preferring the Win Based system given that most people I talk to outside the forums seem to feel the same way (or are indifferent one way or the other).

So I was thinking... why not both?
Given that the Versus event literally already asks players for a preference choice (on time slots and difficulty) and then further splits players into groups based on that choice... what's for adding one more?

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Comments

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    Wouldn't it further dilute the number of players in a slice or a bracket? How is it going to work for each Season and the placement? I suppose once you choose either one, you will stick with it throughout the season. 

    If they do go ahead with this, two possible side effects could be that it's going to take you more than 40 match or 900 points for the 4* cover and/or you would get reduced rewards. Simply because it's easier to get better placement rewards because of players moving to win-based PvP, thus; you shifted up as a side effect.
  • SpecSpecter
    SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    edited March 2018
    I actually just sort of assumed that picking the Win Based system or the Point Based system would stick with you for the entirety of the season. 

    As for the Win based system having reduced rewards or needing more wins to get to? I'm absolutely fine with that. Again, with given the choice between a guaranteed reward that I can get at my leisure to one that is hair-pullingly frustrating to get to and might not even be reasonably aquired hands down I'm going to go with the former, even if the latter prize pool is notably larger. 

    If nothing else giving players a choice between the two systems will give the game some pretty clear data on which of the two players prefer and if players are all jumping ship to join in on the easier Win Based system... well that I guess could speak for itself.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    You still have to deal with the dilution of players for placement rewards. I don't think many players would be happy with poorer rewards in exchange for guaranteed rewards.

    I believe they have enough data and feedback from the last couple of run of win-based PvP. I think it was a pretty hot issue.

    Maybe you can make a new topic in the other more active sub-forum  to gather more feedbacks from players? 
  • SpecSpecter
    SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    edited March 2018
    By dilution problem I can only imagine that maybe being an issue on the points based side of the issue, and if so.. eh. Seems to me maybe just another problem with an already long list of issues along those lines and something else altogether to which I chose not to worry about it. If anything a thinner pool would probably make placing even easier, but I get the feeling that would only make fans of the point based system even madder as it makes things less competitive. Just off the top of my head though for a quick fix for that specific problem? I don't know, maybe just add more fake accounts to fight against? As mentioned players already are entering a difficulty level when entering a Verses stage and players are already fighting AI not actual players so I can't really imagine it being that difficult to gauge a hypothetically appropriately leveled team for players to fight against at any given level.

    As for collection data, it was hardly my primary point to merely gather data on the two systems, I only mentioned it as it seemed an interesting side benefit if this were to actually happen. My point was to suggest a compromise. Clearly there are advocates for both systems and it's unlikely that one side really will be satisfied with "This is how things work, deal with it" knowing that that there is an alternative already on-hand not being used. As with many compromises though it's not without issues and doesn't solve everything and I freely admit it being a bit biased on the Win Based side of things (but what can you really expect when that is the system I clearly favor?). Certainly open to ways to try to balance things out though.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Im satisfied with how things work now..
  • hunky_funky
    hunky_funky Posts: 111 Tile Toppler
    I don't know how it can work out, but it's pretty good idea. Like point based frustration - choose door number 1. Like win based slowlines - choose door number 2. Despite that devs sad back then to think how to improve win based system, we hardly gonna come back to it at all. See it as a dream, that will never come true.
  • Flydecoder
    Flydecoder Posts: 32 Just Dropped In
    The wins bsed was too slow for many but the points based is infuriating for those working their way up... I have every 5 star character (none champed) and 45 4star champs and 900 still is an accomplishment when i get there.

    The problem is the ine step firward to steps back penalty... you start playing for 40-60 points withoit getting pounded on but once you cross around 700 you are playing for near 30 and once you hit 800... near 20, but still being hit for -50.

    You should not play a game, win, take a single hit and come out behind.

    I think they need to give more.and take away less... like win 50, hits cost  20... a 2.5 ro 1 ratio so it takes.3 hits.to a win to pull you down.
    You will still need to shield and it will still bw a tug of war to get to the top.prize.but the top prize needs to be accessible for all.

    Right now the rich get richer and those withiut 5 star characters cannot get to the prize that enables buying more 5 star characters
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Why exactly should top prizes be accesible for all? I know its popular to hate the top 1%, but i think its all the more fun to attempt or reach the top, without it being handed to me. 

    Maybe time to reset goals, if its unattainable?
  • Sim Mayor
    Sim Mayor Posts: 309 Mover and Shaker
    Smart80 said:
    Why exactly should top prizes be accesible for all? I know its popular to hate the top 1%, but i think its all the more fun to attempt or reach the top, without it being handed to me. 

    Maybe time to reset goals, if its unattainable?
    The thing is, that argument cuts both ways.

    When we were doing win-based, all of the points people kept complaining that they weren't able to get the top placement prizes anymore. The pro-win-based crowd responded with "Well, why should you expect to get both top prizes? Maybe it's time to reset your expectations."
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    I don't think I can have this battle again.  It hurts to much from the betrayal of it being pulled away the first time.  All I can say is there are/were two small fixes that would have made the wins based model acceptable to most.  (and these may not be small on the code side, but the seem small to the outside, I realize those aren't the same things).

    1.  Hybrid method where instead of wins points still remain, however placement points go up and down like they do in live game, a separate progression points is added that only goes up and never goes down.
    2.  Don't move the CP out of progression and into placement.

    This would have fixed most of the complaints.  

    I've said my peace multiple times and not looking to start another battle about it, just sharing with this the OP that may never have seen it.

    Have a good day.
  • SpecSpecter
    SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    edited March 2018
    Smart80 said:
    Why exactly should top prizes be accesible for all? I know its popular to hate the top 1%, but i think its all the more fun to attempt or reach the top, without it being handed to me.
    Isn't this the whole point of Placement prizes? Placement prizes are still very much a thing in the Win Based system but I don't believe that Progression prizes should have to reflect that. Placement prizes are a reward for out-competing your fellow players, but all Progression prizes should reflect is that you put forth the effort to make it there, it should not move backwards, not even a little bit. I'm fin with making that progression an uphill climb, like you said things should just be handed to you, but once you hit a stage in progression you should be able to stay there and not have to worry about starting from the bottom just for taking a break.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Smart80 said:
    Why exactly should top prizes be accesible for all? I know its popular to hate the top 1%, but i think its all the more fun to attempt or reach the top, without it being handed to me.
    Isn't this the whole point of Placement prizes? Placement prizes are still very much a thing in the Win Based system but I don't believe that Progression prizes should have to reflect that. Placement prizes are a reward for out-competing your fellow players, but all Progression prizes should reflect is that you put forth the effort to make it there, it should not move backwards, not even a little bit. I'm fin with making that progression an uphill climb, like you said things should just be handed to you, but once you hit a stage in progression you should be able to stay there and not have to worry about starting from the bottom just for taking a break.
    But thats it, you didnt put in enough effort apparently, to get top progression.. and you dont loose rewards when you slide back down. This is what makes it pvp, you can take someone down as well...
  • SpecSpecter
    SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    Losing a day's work because you left yourself unshielded for an hour has nothing to do with any sort of lack of effort.
  • hunky_funky
    hunky_funky Posts: 111 Tile Toppler
    I think to make changes in point based or win based, they should first fix tinnykittens MMR.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2018
    Losing a day's work because you left yourself unshielded for an hour has nothing to do with any sort of lack of effort.
    True, thats just careless...

    I think to make changes in point based or win based, they should first fix tinnykittens MMR.

    Thats indeed where the problem lies, if there is any..
  • SpecSpecter
    SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    edited March 2018
    Let me put it a different way. Earlier someone brought up PvP is having a dilution problem, which means less players are playing in PvP. If just sheer competitiveness was enough to draw players in then this shouldn't be much of an issue but I know a number of players, myself included, that flat out don't bother with PvP anymore because the Point Based system is so **** frustrating to deal with. How do you draw those players back in? By giving them a Progression that's not a constant battle. The point based Placement system in the Win Based system should still scratch your competitive itch, you can climb the ranks and knock other players down as you please, but by giving more casual players something worth playing for you help fill out the numbers that make the actual PvP side of things run smoother.

    Or alternatively, what sounds like a more worthwhile endeavor? Improving a part of the game that would make it more enjoyable for more players, many who were dissatisfied with how things were? Or improving things for the small group of players who were honestly fine with how things already were and probably wouldn't have cared much if things went unchanged?
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Just ignore the 1200, till you are ready to reach it. Most of us did it that way... rewards till 900 are more than worthwhile to play for. Also enough to get season progression.

    And now im done. Good luck, but hope you wont get what you wish for...
  • SpecSpecter
    SpecSpecter Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    edited March 2018
    I don't understand why the thought of something being made more convenient for others is so offensive. Does it somehow lessen your experience even though you are essentially getting the same thing in the end you would be getting otherwise?

    One of the reasons I like the Win Based system so much is that even someone with a mere 3* team could complete it provided they try hard enough. Now I imagine to some that might sound like the very definition of the rewards being 'handed to you', but seriously? If a person with a 3* team is able to take on 40+ fights of 4* and 5* teams over the period of three days honestly I see that as being far more deserving of the rewards at the end of Progression then someone with a 5* team finishing a mere dozen or so fights in a row.
  • Flydecoder
    Flydecoder Posts: 32 Just Dropped In
    Smart80, how many 5 star champs do you play PVP with... 1 or 2...

  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Smart80, how many 5 star champs do you play PVP with... 1 or 2...

    Not sure why thats relevant, but i use 6 of my 8 5* champs regularly. Why do you wanna know?