Hard counters and soft counters

over_clocked

Added all the tips mentioned recently, compressed some sections, added more on Captain Marvel, added a high health group (how could I forget?). Share the best ways to oneshot our favourite meatshields!

over_clocked

Whoa, just had a maxed level 166 Magnetic Translocation do only 700 damage or so to me because I used a level 3 Supernova Team-Up right before that and destroyed all but one red tiles.

Unknown

Very interesting read, although right now all I can think of is how the devs' decisions hard counter my will to play their game. Again... and again... and again...

Unknown

This is probably obvious, but Storm's new MOTE is a denier for team up ap. Considering the power of these actions, this counter probably should be added.

over_clocked

Sure. But no one will play Storm anyway except in PvE. It's weird but classic Storm is much, much better now than Mohawk/Modern. Maybe I'm too biased? But even 2*s have better uses for yellow than 3* Mistress. 1* Mistress is still very good for 1*s, no argument.
You need 3 yellow matches to fire Mistress now; but Mistress caps out at 6 TUAP gained, which is only 2 matches. Sure, you might have minor cascades from that and some minor damage... But one more yellow AP grants you Sunder, and one more yellow match leads to Thunder Strike... Same amount of yellow matches allows you to use game-ending Battleplan.

over_clocked

Hmm, I see, they 'buffed' Mororo relative to Modern Storm; 1* shatters 6 TUAP and 3* - 7. That's much better already but still not sure about Mororo's value. To me, that character will always be a cascading goddess.

Unknown

These are great broad ideas. I was wondering if anyone wanted to weigh in on a more specific situation. I'm sure we've all seen at higher score the maxed level L.Daken/Sentry combo, what would be the BEST 2-person combo to counter this?

I have been using Hulk/Hood but I feel like I could do better as this combo doesn't have great offensive capability.

over_clocked

adamLmpq wrote:

These are great broad ideas. I was wondering if anyone wanted to weigh in on a more specific situation. I'm sure we've all seen at higher score the maxed level L.Daken/Sentry combo, what would be the BEST 2-person combo to counter this?

I have been using Hulk/Hood but I feel like I could do better as this combo doesn't have great offensive capability.

I'm sorry, but lDaken/Sentry are so OP that 'unbroken' Hood/Thor, for example, rarely stand a chance. The only 2-person combos to deal with Sentry/Daken fast/reliably are cMagneto/anyone but preferably LT/Patch and Sentry/Daken themselves. You can also bring cStorm for lulz...

over_clocked

Added some tidbits on Deadpool (sheesh that guy seems incredibly annoying on defense already, mainly thanks to cheaper-than-cheap red). He seems built to counter regenerating characters (as well as dangerous squishies) but regenerating characters can also absorb red better than most other characters.
Removed all mentions of EAP (good riddance Hot Dog hello World Rupture lol).

OnesOwnGrief

Seriously, where is the sticky? This should also be moved to the Tips sub-forum as well (since it makes sense). Lakestone, IceIX, Demiurge_Will, mythical moderators, someone get on this.

GothicKratos

locked wrote:

Added some tidbits on Deadpool (sheesh that guy seems incredibly annoying on defense already, mainly thanks to cheaper-than-cheap red). He seems built to counter regenerating characters (as well as dangerous squishies) but regenerating characters can also absorb red better than most other characters.
Removed all mentions of EAP (good riddance Hot Dog hello World Rupture lol).

I disagree with this to a degree. He hardly "counters" squishies. To me, if Deadpool is a direct counter to anything, it's the bruiser style tanks, like 3* Thor, because of his, as you mentioned, cheaper-than-cheap Red ability, which even at low ranks, will do massive damage to characters like Thor. Additionally, he also has a built in ability, in his Black, that not only lets him take damage for your squishy, but let's him regenerate some of that damage too.

If I were to classify Deadpool, I would classify him as a Utility Tank or a Support Tank (not because I think he's "tanky", but because of his shielding and recovering abilities). Granted, 65% damage can turn him into a killing machine, especially if you pair him with another low-cost ability to finish off your target, but, it's pretty situational, in the sense that, when you're looking at say, The Hood, would you really want to spend your AP on slapping him with percentile-based damage? I feel like he'd make a great addition to the ever-popular cMags+cStorm combo by being able to shield for both your rather squish damage dealers, but also covering the colors they don't (specifically Purple and Black).

OnesOwnGrief

Also, locked, I think burn damage would be a consistent counter to healing. Torch, Psylocke, Doom (who is also a counter to Daken in general), Mohawk Storm, and to a lesser degree Punisher with strike tiles.

over_clocked

GothicKratos wrote:

locked wrote:

Added some tidbits on Deadpool (sheesh that guy seems incredibly annoying on defense already, mainly thanks to cheaper-than-cheap red). He seems built to counter regenerating characters (as well as dangerous squishies) but regenerating characters can also absorb red better than most other characters.
Removed all mentions of EAP (good riddance Hot Dog hello World Rupture lol).

I disagree with this to a degree. He hardly "counters" squishies. To me, if Deadpool is a direct counter to anything, it's the bruiser style tanks, like 3* Thor, because of his, as you mentioned, cheaper-than-cheap Red ability, which even at low ranks, will do massive damage to characters like Thor. Additionally, he also has a built in ability, in his Black, that not only lets him take damage for your squishy, but let's him regenerate some of that damage too.

If I were to classify Deadpool, I would classify him as a Utility Tank or a Support Tank (not because I think he's "tanky", but because of his shielding and recovering abilities). Granted, 65% damage can turn him into a killing machine, especially if you pair him with another low-cost ability to finish off your target, but, it's pretty situational, in the sense that, when you're looking at say, The Hood, would you really want to spend your AP on slapping him with percentile-based damage? I feel like he'd make a great addition to the ever-popular cMags+cStorm combo by being able to shield for both your rather squish damage dealers, but also covering the colors they don't (specifically Purple and Black).

If you cut 3,3k off a tank (red has a limit), s/he still has another 5-9k health to chew, and returns are less and less with each consequent cast of red, making Torch a better red user (it's alright, his red is premiere). I think red is designated to be used against squishies, but it's also good to hurt tanks, no argument. Yes yes I will gladly take an opportunity to slice away 3300 health from Hood with just 6 red AP - NO ONE can do this with 6 AP atm, not Daken, not HT (initial red requires 8 AP), not Psylocke or Ares. Hood/oBW are always primary targets, since without them, tanks are usually not as dangerous.
I'm not sure comboing Deadpool with ANY other purple user is such a good idea since you want his purple over every other purple ability in-game, including cMags, oBW, Fury. I think you meant MMN, not cMags when mentioning cStorm? But cStorm and MMN need purple to charge blue for Wind Storm. If you are going to combo a 3* with cStorm/MMN, Hood/BP are a much better choice for rainbow and AP acceleration/huge damage.

GothicKratos

Haha, this is what I get trying to talk from 2* Land with no real statistics. I was mostly talking from a theoretical standpoint, I forget sometimes that things are much different in 3*-4* Land, but with much ado;

locked wrote:

If you cut 3,3k off a tank (red has a limit), s/he still has another 5-9k health to chew, and returns are less and less with each consequent cast of red, making Torch a better red user (it's alright, his red is premiere). I think red is designated to be used against squishies, but it's also good to hurt tanks, no argument. Yes yes I will gladly take an opportunity to slice away 3300 health from Hood with just 6 red AP - NO ONE can do this with 6 AP atm, not Daken, not HT (initial red requires 8 AP), not Psylocke or Ares. Hood/oBW are always primary targets, since without them, tanks are usually not as dangerous.

First and foremost, I wasn't aware Deadpool's Red had a damage thresh hold. After chewing on it for a few minutes, I feel like you're right.

locked wrote:

I'm not sure comboing Deadpool with ANY other purple user is such a good idea since you want his purple over every other purple ability in-game, including cMags, oBW, Fury. I think you meant MMN, not cMags when mentioning cStorm? But cStorm and MMN need purple to charge blue for Wind Storm. If you are going to combo a 3* with cStorm/MMN, Hood/BP are a much better choice for rainbow and AP acceleration/huge damage.

You're right, I was referring to Polarity Shift feeding into Wind Storm, but I got some threads crossed in my head. For some reason, at that time, I had it stuck in my head it was Classic, not Marvel Now! Magento, and went to look at my cMags cover for color coverage information (I just got it a few days ago ), and it was just downhill from there lol. I apologize.

My primary concern about using Deadpool is one you mentioned before; his Red's effectiveness inherently decreases over time. Though, I tell myself that it's not as drastic of an impact as I would think, from my standpoint (i.e. a Deadpool Red at my stage is basically a death sentence). (Ignoring the fact his Black isn't necessarily as useful as it seems on the cover, after looking at the Deadpool thread over in the other section of the board.)

over_clocked

GothicKratos wrote:

My primary concern about using Deadpool is one you mentioned before; his Red's effectiveness inherently decreases over time. Though, I tell myself that it's not as drastic of an impact as I would think, from my standpoint (i.e. a Deadpool Red at my stage is basically a death sentence). (Ignoring the fact his Black isn't necessarily as useful as it seems on the cover, after looking at the Deadpool thread over in the other section of the board.)

It's completely cool, even older players sometimes forget basics or are too lazy to look them up.
Deadpool's red can be the only red on the team since there is no lack of powerful green/yellow/black abilities and his own purple can finish the job as well, but you can also combo it with another cheap red nuke such as Punisher, HT, Thor, Psylocke's. Since Deadpool seems a BFF for Hood (less so for HT/Mororo and probably not a BFF for GSBW, Falcon and Loki at all since they want purple too), you just need someone with a good green ability (optional yellow/blue/black/red but NOT purple) to be completely obnoxious: Patch, Thor, Sentry, HT, Punisher. Active blue/green would be most preferable for third but we lack good characters with blue/green for the moment except cStorm (She-Hulk's green is just horrible, IW is meh, and even cStorm's green is quite meh for a strong colour). The next character is said to have blue/green/yellow abilities which bodes well for the Hood/Deadpool obnoxiousness.
I must say that all characters with purple, even passive, seem to be designed to somewhat replace oBW: lazy Daken (much better defensively), Falcon (a special tile counter, a PvE specialist, a go-to with strike tiles), Fury now. These three even have use for blue AP just like oBW does. Deadpool's purple is so good it simply needs to be the only purple ability on-board, which definitely leaves oBW out. And yes I agree black will be usable on offense but not so much on defense.
You don't have to worry about Deadpool for the moment unless you luck out into 10 of his covers ahead of every other 3* or unless you need to lower your MMR from seeing maxed Deadpools already, but when you get into later stages, I'm sure there will be bigger issues than Deadpool. He won't be top tier since black is situational, purple is quite expensive and easily preventable with either Hood/oBW, while red can never kill anyone w/o strike tiles however hurtful it is, but he will be popular anyway. It's always good to look forward into the next tier and train your 'MPQ muscles' even if you have a long way ahead still, so keep it up.

over_clocked

Reminder to self: add/update:

cMagneto changes;
X-Force changes;
Daken changes, both classic and DA;
mHawkeye changes;
Beast.

Add Punisher countering Ambush.
Add lvl 5 Iron Hammer and lvl 4-5 Hailstorm countering Demolition.
Add She-Hulk countering Punisher, Daken, Sentry, lazyCap, etc.
Add CD Team-Up abilities only disarmed upon victory or with tile overwrite/destruction, not enemy character death.
Add which TUs are most helpful against Sentry.

over_clocked

Updated with most of new things, will update again shortly; not sure what to say about Beast, he sucks so much he neither needs to be countered or used as a counter himself.
Edit: added most of the stuff I wanted to add. Waiting for your input, too! Always appreciated.

over_clocked

Added how Colossus allows a teammate to evade an AoE attack completely/how he counters oBW's heal in 2 ways at once.

Unknown

Strike tiles could be considered a soft counter to Colossus' Immovable Object.

over_clocked

daibar wrote:

Strike tiles could be considered a soft counter to Colossus' Immovable Object.

Yeah if Colossus picks up popularity as a PvP character which I doubt, I could add a section on him. As it stands, HE should have been a counter to strike tiles, not the other way around