Hard counters and soft counters

245

Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Mohawk Storm is good against any ability to places special tiles in fixed location, so World Rupture and Inferno would both hate Hailstorm.
  • over_clocked
    over_clocked Posts: 3,961
    elaborated on tricky things to counter (mostly passive abilities that a player can't help dealing with).
  • OnesOwnGrief
    OnesOwnGrief Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    This is actually really good. Why is this not stickied?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    OnesOwnGrief wrote:
    This is actually really good. Why is this not stickied?

    Because it's now out of date and no one even cared about it for six weeks?
  • over_clocked
    over_clocked Posts: 3,961
    Pfft, how out of date is it? It includes Sentry, Mororo and LD. I need to add She-Hulk who no one plays but I think I will wait for Captain Marvel and then add them both as folks share their impressions from Carol. Oh and maybe Fury too who I have no idea about how he plays? icon_razz.gif
  • OnesOwnGrief
    OnesOwnGrief Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    Even with outdated info, though it's arguably not that dated, it can be very useful for new players venturing to the forums and offers basic match-up information that still covers She-Hulk if you bother to look at her skills and compare them here. It probably should be moved to Tips and Guides though.
  • Mawtful
    Mawtful Posts: 1,646 Chairperson of the Boards
    The numbers may change, but the core concepts are always going to be rock solid - AND applicable across just about every other game ever made. There will always be someone for whom this is a new concept, so there's definitely some use.

    Perhaps a "generic" example needs to be written for each area, e.g.

    AP Theft counters expensive Abilities in this convoluted RockPaperScissorsPistolEnergymanipulationGammradiationThor game. Hood and OBW are still arguably the best in the AP Theft category, however Psylocke and Daredevil both have AP Theft abilities, and She-Hulk has a "pseudo-Theft" in the form of her AP destruction.

    Stealing/Removing/Denying AP is always going to prevent your opponent from using their expensive abilities, so it's worth considering if your opponent is running Yelena + IW + Bagman.
  • over_clocked
    over_clocked Posts: 3,961
    Thanks. I added tidbits on Captain Marvel, Fury and She-Hulk and some others, will be adding more as I can think of them. Fury is very simple to counter though: don't play against him, lol. If you can afford to bring Sentry/Hood against him, you are not my target audience anyway... icon_lol.gif
  • over_clocked
    over_clocked Posts: 3,961
    Mawtful wrote:
    The numbers may change, but the core concepts are always going to be rock solid - AND applicable across just about every other game ever made. There will always be someone for whom this is a new concept, so there's definitely some use.

    Perhaps a "generic" example needs to be written for each area, e.g.

    AP Theft counters expensive Abilities in this convoluted RockPaperScissorsPistolEnergymanipulationGammradiationThor game. Hood and OBW are still arguably the best in the AP Theft category, however Psylocke and Daredevil both have AP Theft abilities, and She-Hulk has a "pseudo-Theft" in the form of her AP destruction.

    Stealing/Removing/Denying AP is always going to prevent your opponent from using their expensive abilities, so it's worth considering if your opponent is running Yelena + IW + Bagman.
    I don't consider Psylocke, Daredevil, mBW, Yelena, She-Hulk (or Fury) good AP thieves. AP stealing needs to be reliant, which none of them are... Only oBW/Hood know their turf. All the rest are just bonus screw-you abilities that you have to be super-unlucky to run into.
  • Mawtful
    Mawtful Posts: 1,646 Chairperson of the Boards
    locked wrote:
    I don't consider Psylocke, Daredevil, mBW, Yelena, She-Hulk (or Fury) good AP thieves. AP stealing needs to be reliant, which none of them are... Only oBW/Hood know their turf. All the rest are just bonus screw-you abilities that you have to be super-unlucky to run into.

    Sorry, to clarify what I meant:

    Hood, OBW = AP Theft. I agree.

    New players may be in a situation where they have 0 covers for both of these characters, therefore the list of pseudo-theives is Daredevil, Shulk, etc. That is, each of those characters have some way to attack your opponents AP pools, however they lack reliability so shouldn't be considered true AP Theft.

    This kind of information helps describe what is valuable about the mechanic and that goes to explain why certain characters are prized over others.

    "Psylocke can steal a lot of one colour!"
    "But you don't get to pick it, so it might not be useful to my enemy, or you, or both! So that's why she's not considered a good AP Thief."
    "I see. But I don't get to pick what colour Hood steals either?"
    "But it's always active, so you're seeing the benefit right away. And can only be removed by taking out The Hood - it's not tied to a Countdown like Psylocke and you can't deny the AP to use it in the same way you can deny purple to OBW. etc."

    Maybe I'm overthinking the idea? I would expect that majority of people who are interested enough in a mobile match3 game to sign up to the forums probably already have a good understanding of the metagame and how its compontents interact (and probably some basic understanding of game theory), so perhaps we don't really need to go into too much detail.
  • over_clocked
    over_clocked Posts: 3,961
    Rock - Paper - Scissors would probably go like this for MPQ:
    high damage, high-cost abilities < AP theft (oBW/Hood) < quick burst damage < AoE damage < AoE counters (Hulk/cStorm/Captain Marvel), high health, heal, regen < stuns and one-shots, and since one shots are usually high cost, the circle is completed.
    And of course, special tiles < special tile counters. BUT: special tile counters are often weak by themselves/not desired too much: Loki, Falcon, Moonstone, darn Bag-Man, IW, Yelena Belova. Decent but still not too desired: Captain America, She-Hulk.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Phantron wrote:
    Mohawk Storm is good against any ability to places special tiles in fixed location, so World Rupture and Inferno would both hate Hailstorm.
    A maxed hailstorm is also quite decent against generated strike tiles, as it often floods the red with puny damage tiles, though it is a soft counter. Hailstorm with some other ability, eg lazy cap, can get rid of most strike tiles. Also works against mobs who place countdowns on a single colour.
    --edit, not sure if you mean fixed color as opposed to location.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Dr. Doom counters Magneto by turning all the blue tiles to black.

    It's not a huge deal because the AI doesn't know how to use blue properly, but it is definitely a counter.
  • over_clocked
    over_clocked Posts: 3,961
    daibar wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    Mohawk Storm is good against any ability to places special tiles in fixed location, so World Rupture and Inferno would both hate Hailstorm.
    A maxed hailstorm is also quite decent against generated strike tiles, as it often floods the red with puny damage tiles, though it is a soft counter. Hailstorm with some other ability, eg lazy cap, can get rid of most strike tiles. Also works against mobs who place countdowns on a single colour.
    --edit, not sure if you mean fixed color as opposed to location.
    Phantron meant that Hailstorm and similar massive painting abilities (Falcon with Bird Strike, for example) hose fixed location specialists like Sentry/HT because Sentry and HT can't just work around occupied tiles and their special tiles simply aren't created where a special tile already resides. Unlike them, m(ohawk)Storm and Falcon, if you notice, place their tiles randomly, but always a fixed amount unless they run out of basic tiles to stamp on.
    Edit: that's why HT and Sentry mirror-counter each other, too.

    Will add the Doom tidbit, certainly helps in Villan rounds, thanks, rooter!
  • HairyDave
    HairyDave Posts: 1,574
    rooter wrote:
    Dr. Doom counters Magneto by turning all the blue tiles to black.

    It's not a huge deal because the AI doesn't know how to use blue properly, but it is definitely a counter.
    And it's also going to soft counter Daken by suffocating him (Lazy at the moment but both versions once they get updated).
  • noobprime
    noobprime Posts: 403
    I think only Fitted Kitchens can really tell about counters ... amirite? icon_lol.gif
    Thanks folks, I'll show myself out.
    *great thread btw
  • GuntherBlobel
    GuntherBlobel Posts: 987 Critical Contributor
    Sticky, please!
  • over_clocked
    over_clocked Posts: 3,961
    Whoa, thanks, if newer players find this compilation useful, I am all for keeping it as updated as possible.

    Added a bit on EAP gainers (Spider-Man/Punisher/GSBW/BP) in Tricky things, right at the end.
  • OnesOwnGrief
    OnesOwnGrief Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    locked wrote:
    Added a bit on EAP gainers (Spider-Man/Punisher/GSBW/BP) in Tricky things, right at the end.
    Of those listed, GSBW and Punshier are more dangerous than the others due to their high crit and cascade potential. Crit multiplier easily pushes them to a point where an early crit match on EAP can quickly cause issues in Oasis and Forest.
  • GuntherBlobel
    GuntherBlobel Posts: 987 Critical Contributor
    Daredevil's traps are a soft-counter to tile color changes like Hulk's black and Thor's red and yellow. They will change the color of the trap and likely match it with nearby tiles. Before I had Best There Is, Daredevil was my Hulk-buster.

    If there even just a couple Ambush traps on the board and Hulk gets angry enough, you can be pretty sure to end the Hulk during his rage.

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