Trying to correct an assumptio Ixalan seems to support

Kinesia
Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
in MtGPQ General Discussion
By "specific" supportds being complained about way too many of them now have automatic decay they don't deserve.
By a few creatures being complained about most have too high costs. (though that was helped)

Specific supports are issues, yes, but not most. Most  DON'T need automatic decay,

Most creatures need to be cheap enough to recast when stolen, destroyed or bounced...


Most of the ixalan issues could be fixed by this.

The tribal problems are all corrolaries,
vampires are a pain because they die too easay.
Dinosaurs are  problem because they cost too much, you should be able to play 1 dino almost every turn to make it workable.
Merfolk... they have no clue, ok, they have a different problem.

Pirates... Use pirates as a baseline, they are cheap and versatile, make the other tribes usable too. Make them ESPECIALLY usable when someone is stolen or killed or destroyed, that should be an ASSUMPTION, that's the world we live in.

(And take Bolas 1st to -5/-5, it adds to the existing problem)
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Comments

  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    I agree with all of it except for the parenthesis part.

    Actually, the dinos would be appropriately costed if they had more extra effects. Like, there are a couple of awesome dinos, make the mythics all that good.
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    You are literally the only person complaining about Bolas again and again. His first is fine and definitely does not need a nerf. -5/-5 for 9 loyalty would be weak. Aj1's first is a lot better than that.

    You can very easily work around Bolas's first ability. But god forbid if we have any pw that the AI can play well.p
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    khurram said:
    You are literally the only person complaining about Bolas again and again. His first is fine and definitely does not need a nerf. -5/-5 for 9 loyalty would be weak. Aj1's first is a lot better than that.

    You can very easily work around Bolas's first ability. But god forbid if we have any pw that the AI can play well.p
    Actually I agree with Kinesia. Bolas's first ability is overly powerful. Compare the cost for Bolas to destroy a creature to Ob Nixilis and you can see the power disparity. First Bolas is able to do it on his first loyalty, which means the AI is going to blow up your creatures a lot more often, second Ob Nixilis also hurts himself to kill your creature, Bolas does not, and add to that Bolas has more flexility with three colors, and it's not hard to see this is blatantly more powerful. Giving a creature -5/-5 will still kill most creatures, but it won't kill creatures if they've been reinforced or buffed.

    Most planeswalkers able to kill of creatures either directly (Ajani/Ob Nixils). or indirectly (Koth/Sammut) have these abilities on their second loyalty and usually closer to 12 loyalty rather than being a first 9 loyalty ability like with Bolas. Arlinn would probably be the lone exception here.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    -5/-5 is too weak though. What if it was "in addition, reduce target creature power to zero?"  It could work like thaumatic compass currently works.
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Reducing its power to 0 might as well still kill it. -5/-5 does still kill most things, but may or may not be too weak, I'd have to look at what it can and can not kill to say for sure. Though, let's be honest here, with access to red, blue, and black, Bolas has no problem killing things without his first loyalty ability making sure he kills things on top of that.

    Looking more specifically at the size of Ixalan creatures (since that's the standard I'm using as a baseline for creature power going forward. Bolas as mentioned doesn't need help with the plethora of removal available for legacy) there are only 20 creatures of 112 that without any buffs -5/-5 will not kill (and some of the ones he can't kill with -5/-5 he couldn't kill even now because they're hexproof)
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    Fine ,what if his first and second abilities switched places instead?  
  • asm0deus
    asm0deus Posts: 73 Match Maker
    If you want to go -5/-5, it should be ALL opponents creatures, not just a single target. 
  • gogol666
    gogol666 Posts: 316 Mover and Shaker
    edited March 2018
    Let's have Bolas out of this thread, which is about Ixalan improvement.
    @Kinesia is right: we need less auto-decaying supports and cheaper creatures. 
    Easy
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    gogol666 said:
    Let's have Bolas out of this thread, which is about Ixalan improvement.
    @Kinesia is right: we need less auto-decaying supports and cheaper creatures. 
    Easy

    I wish he had left it out of the original post. 
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mainloop25 said:
    gogol666 said:
    Let's have Bolas out of this thread, which is about Ixalan improvement.
    @Kinesia is right: we need less auto-decaying supports and cheaper creatures. 
    Easy

    I wish he had left it out of the original post. 
    Sorry, I wish I could but for me it's deeply entrenched in the "too much creature destruction" problem that is affecting Ixalan creature viability.

    I _don't_ believe it's unrelated or a separate conversation.
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    What's really affecting Ixalan's creatures' viability is their own poor design and mechanics.
  • QuiksilverHg
    QuiksilverHg Posts: 128 Tile Toppler
    I say drop the 3 creature limit and it would solve A LOT of problems. When you can only have 3 creatures getting 1 blown up or stolen is always going to hurt
  • gogol666
    gogol666 Posts: 316 Mover and Shaker
    Kinesia said:
    Mainloop25 said:
    gogol666 said:
    Let's have Bolas out of this thread, which is about Ixalan improvement.
    @Kinesia is right: we need less auto-decaying supports and cheaper creatures. 
    Easy

    I wish he had left it out of the original post. 
    Sorry, I wish I could but for me it's deeply entrenched in the "too much creature destruction" problem that is affecting Ixalan creature viability.

    I _don't_ believe it's unrelated or a separate conversation.
    To me Bolas doesn't belong here for two reason:
    1) he belongs to another set
    2) most of us agree on the other two points, while Bolas divides us. So let's fix first what is easy to correct and then we can discuss about the difficult problem
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    Kinesia said:
    By "specific" supportds being complained about way too many of them now have automatic decay they don't deserve.
    By a few creatures being complained about most have too high costs. (though that was helped)

    Specific supports are issues, yes, but not most. Most  DON'T need automatic decay,

    Most creatures need to be cheap enough to recast when stolen, destroyed or bounced...


    Most of the ixalan issues could be fixed by this.

    The tribal problems are all corrolaries,
    vampires are a pain because they die too easay.
    Dinosaurs are  problem because they cost too much, you should be able to play 1 dino almost every turn to make it workable.
    Merfolk... they have no clue, ok, they have a different problem.

    Pirates... Use pirates as a baseline, they are cheap and versatile, make the other tribes usable too. Make them ESPECIALLY usable when someone is stolen or killed or destroyed, that should be an ASSUMPTION, that's the world we live in.

    (And take Bolas 1st to -5/-5, it adds to the existing problem)
    I'm with you, except your spelling/grammar had my wombat-eye twitching through most of it.  Late night post? ;)

    I always felt like Bolas's abilities were a bit off, all that zombie stuff made him feel like an overpowered Liliana.  Yeah I know Eternals are technically zombies.  Maybe it's because Amonkhet is at least Bolas's 3rd scheme in the mtg story arch, I feel like his abilities don't match his overall character.

    However (devil's advocate against myself here) I would NOT want to see a Bolas with the abilities of his first planeswalker card.  That would not be fun...

    edit:  now that I've read everyone else's posts about leaving Bolas out.  Woops.  Prefer we get this settled now though before it becomes a big thing and people start complaining about it like cycling, Omni, Ixalan, etc
  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 978 Critical Contributor
    Mainloop25 said:
    Fine ,what if his first and second abilities switched places instead?  
    OK, actually for another thread maybe, but yes please! You could even make it an Exile then
  • Enygma6
    Enygma6 Posts: 266 Mover and Shaker
    Back to the original topic of Ixalan cards in need of a rethink:  
    Sunbird’s Invocation.  Unless I haven’t figured out how to use it properly.  It starts with 2 shields, and triggers itself when cast.  So at best you get one extra use out of it.  20 mana spent to maybe cast 20 mana or less worth of other cards.
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    asm0deus said:
    If you want to go -5/-5, it should be ALL opponents creatures, not just a single target. 
    If it's all creatures, then it would also have to be only until end of turn as a permanent -5/-5 to all creatures is even stronger than just kill one.
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mainloop25 said:
    Fine ,what if his first and second abilities switched places instead?  
    .... maybe....

    Drawing a bunch of cards and summoning an 8/8 pile of zombies is still pretty strong as a first ability. Would probably have to be changed to just drawing cards or reduce the number of zombies summoned if they were swapped.

    Regardless its apparent that most of Bolas's skills are overly powerful and his health is entirely too high for all the power and the ability to use three colors. I mentioned this back even before he was released that he would likely end up too powerful, and this is especially true if you compare him to and of the three planeswalkers released after him.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    The comments about Bolas should be their own thread so hopefully the mods will split this thread.

    I have no problem with Bolas in his current form, really. So I'm not really for any sort of nerf. He doesn't get that dangerous until his first ability is maxed out. You don't see him at level 54+ unless you're at a high level yourself. And Bolas takes so long to level, with not-so-great mana gains until he's about level 30 or so. So I feel like his great first ability is a reward for leveling him up that high. 
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mainloop25 said:
    The comments about Bolas should be their own thread so hopefully the mods will split this thread.

    I have no problem with Bolas in his current form, really. So I'm not really for any sort of nerf. He doesn't get that dangerous until his first ability is maxed out. You don't see him at level 54+ unless you're at a high level yourself. And Bolas takes so long to level, with not-so-great mana gains until he's about level 30 or so. So I feel like his great first ability is a reward for leveling him up that high. 
    I've been facing level 50+ Bolas while trying to play and level the new Jace at level 40, so you do have to face off against that while still getting your one bonuses online.

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