Ixalan card costs

ElfNeedsFood

In seeing the ~25 cards from Ixalan so far, the one big common theme seems to be everything is so expensive. This covers creatures, spells, and supports. Is there an opportunity to adjust these values before things get into our hands?

Gilesclone

If they don’t, a lot of these cards won’t get used.  That will be a huge disadvantage for new play who will get many more cards from Ixalan than older sets.

Matthew

I have a hunch that this will be the new norm moving forward. That is, unless Oktagon falls victim to the same power creep traps that befell Hibernum.

If that is indeed their intent, then I guess I don't have a problem with that. But it will be annoying to deal with until the more absurd cards, like Heart of Kiran, Metalwork Colossus, Rishkar's Expertise, Baral, etc, fall off into the Legacy block.

ElfNeedsFood

Well I’d even compare the new vehicles to Smuggler’s Copter and come up with “what just happened?”

Mburn7

I like the idea to reduce power creep.  It will be much better once Kaladesh rotates out.

I'm more worried about the weird wording on some of those cards.  I hope the coding works properly

Matthew

ElfNeedsFood said:

Well I’d even compare the new vehicles to Smuggler’s Copter and come up with “what just happened?”

The two vehicles we've seen so far are laughably unimpressive. Of course, I'm saying that as I look at them essentially in the context of some stupidly OP vehicles. Perhaps once the KLD/AER monsterships cycle out, these vehicles and any future ones will be more useful.

And I actually rather like Smuggler's Copter. It was alright at best before we got AKH/HOU, but with the arrival of Embalm/Eternalize/Aftermath, it's actually serving a purpose by discarding cards for you.

khurram

Matthew said: I

I have a hunch that this will be the new norm moving forward. That is, unless Oktagon falls victim to the same power creep traps that befell Hibernum.

If that is indeed their intent, then I guess I don't have a problem with that. But it will be annoying to deal with until the more absurd cards, like Heart of Kiran, Metalwork Colossus, Rishkar's Expertise, Baral, etc, fall off into the Legacy block.

Bad cards are bad regardless of existence of other cards that are powerful. Majority of the cards that have been spoiled so far seem very weak and would still be weak if HoK, Colossus, Rex and baral did not exist.

ElfNeedsFood

Matthew said:

And I actually rather like Smuggler's Copter. It was alright at best before we got AKH/HOU, but with the arrival of Embalm/Eternalize/Aftermath, it's actually serving a purpose by discarding cards for you.

I do too.  I was trying to target a mid-level card that sees real play as a comparison point.  

Also, I'm pretty stoked about the idea of events with unique world effects and the new planes walkers all look fun, so I'm not all negative on this, just worried about the 1/4 of the cards we've seen and how expensive they are.

I hope the other 3/4 of the set proves me wrong and we have a really workable set with some interesting new hooks.  Every set has a Depala or a Cryptic Serpent, so maybe we will have a great set after all.

There's a lot of potential for the concept of tribal decks as long as they don't become all the same all the time because there are only a few great choices.

wereotter

Matthew said:

ElfNeedsFood said:

Well I’d even compare the new vehicles to Smuggler’s Copter and come up with “what just happened?”

The two vehicles we've seen so far are laughably unimpressive. Of course, I'm saying that as I look at them essentially in the context of some stupidly OP vehicles. Perhaps once the KLD/AER monsterships cycle out, these vehicles and any future ones will be more useful.

And I actually rather like Smuggler's Copter. It was alright at best before we got AKH/HOU, but with the arrival of Embalm/Eternalize/Aftermath, it's actually serving a purpose by discarding cards for you.

Smuggler's Copter was pretty good before that too if you used it to empower madness cards. You could loot one then all your madness cards would gain mana. It was insane in the Sarkhan deck I was running.

Higher costs will be interesting to see how it turns out. It could go either way, either to force more strategy rather than just the "Lenny Smash!" tactics we generally see, but might also just hand then game to whoever gets the first cascade (see also every green planeswalker and Koth)

THEMAGICkMAN

as long as there is some decent ramp we'll be ok. I actually really like the way they're taking the game with Ixalan, a slower meta would be incredibly refreshing. winning in <5 turns every game is kinda boring

Mburn7

khurram said:

Bad cards are bad regardless of existence of other cards that are powerful. Majority of the cards that have been spoiled so far seem very weak and would still be weak if HoK, Colossus, Rex and baral did not exist.

I'm not sure about that.  Power is relative.  Rashimi is useless in a vacuum, but with assorted gem changers (from every set) she becomes one of the most powerful in the game.  Some cards that were staples back when Zendikar was the newest set became useless once Innistrad came out.

And quite a few of the cards that have been spoiled seem fun and useful, even if they aren't as stupidly overpowered as Baral and stuff.  Sure I don't see the next Olivia here (not to say it isn't, just not obviously), but I wouldn't mind using some of these.

Theros

Kinjalli's caller for instance cost 13 mana for 0/4 blocker. 
The best way to help new players (and vets too) is to reduce cost of commons/uncommons. Imagine playing with one of the 5 origin PWs underleveled and with poor mana gain. Alternatively, the can buff the PWs for improve mana gain.

Stormcrow

Mburn7 said:

I like the idea to reduce power creep.  It will be much better once Kaladesh rotates out.

And here, I can remember when we were getting our first look at Kaladesh and everyone was complaining it was underpowered. (It is, compared to SOI/EMN, though with Aether Revolt they moved the needle back towards really strong, and it's fair to say that SOI/EMN were disgustingly strong.)

All I can say is, some of these previewed cards make those dumb overcosted allies in BFZ look positively affordable and efficient, and nobody played those dumb overcosted allies even when BFZ was the hot new thing. I can't imagine ever wanting to use one of my 10 precious card slots on Lookout's Dispersal under any circumstances ever. Even the Mythics have me mostly saying "meh", although a few of the pirates in the first blog post looked reasonably-costed.

I do agree that the previewed cards could use an editing pass for clarity/consistency of language use.

ElfNeedsFood

Stormcrow said:

I do agree that the previewed cards could use an editing pass for clarity/consistency of language use.

and destroy all the gems!

khurram

Mburn7 said:

khurram said:

Bad cards are bad regardless of existence of other cards that are powerful. Majority of the cards that have been spoiled so far seem very weak and would still be weak if HoK, Colossus, Rex and baral did not exist.

I'm not sure about that.  Power is relative.  Rashimi is useless in a vacuum, but with assorted gem changers (from every set) she becomes one of the most powerful in the game.  Some cards that were staples back when Zendikar was the newest set became useless once Innistrad came out.

And quite a few of the cards that have been spoiled seem fun and useful, even if they aren't as stupidly overpowered as Baral and stuff.  Sure I don't see the next Olivia here (not to say it isn't, just not obviously), but I wouldn't mind using some of these.

Let's just assume that consulate flagship and HoK didn't exist and Shadowed Caravel was the first mythic vehicle. It's still seems like a weak card and very much overcosted. And Fell flagship is still not worth the slot or investment even if we didn't have other vehicles to compare it to.

It was laughable to see them label Bishop of the Bloodstained as a flashy vampire. A 4/4 for 20 Mana with a one time effect that's mildly interesting at best and certainly not worth all that investment. I can see some marginal combos in a vampire token spam deck or with cards like Defiant Bloodlord and some other cards in legacy but even then it costs 7 to 10 Mana too much for what it seems worth, at this point.

Sure there don't seem to be any new Olivias or deploy and Huf and I am happy for that but its not a good sign when dedicated players look at spoilers of a much hyped and anticipated new set and feel generally indifferent about whether they get those cards or not. I myself was worried that I might spend too much of my saved in-game resources at release of Ixalan but not anymore. 

Tilwin90

I know people have the impression that increasing the cost deals with the power creep issue but it's the worst of the solutions. Let me detail...
-we like to be able to cast our stuff. Higher costs means literally playing less.
-high mana gains planeswalkers still get screwed when unlucky. Those bolas matches when all you keep getting is white and green gems... Well higher costs means frust frustrating situations only get worse
-you know that awkward feeling when Greg plays awkward high cost spells and you are like "how does he do it!?" Well prepare to have a harder time dealing with that if costs are increased.

So no i don't think an op environment filled with  colossus and such is super healthy but I'd rather my colossus still cost the same and were smaller thant the other way around.
Cheers! 

khurram

Tilwin90 said:

So no i don't think an op environment filled with  colossus and such is super healthy but I'd rather my colossus still cost the same and were smaller thant the other way around.
Cheers! 

How about if your colossus were smaller and it cost 10 more Mana?  
Because that's how most of the new spoiled cards feel.

Tilwin90

khurram said:

Tilwin90 said:

So no i don't think an op environment filled with  colossus and such is super healthy but I'd rather my colossus still cost the same and were smaller thant the other way around.
Cheers! 

How about if your colossus were smaller and it cost 10 more Mana?  
Because that's how most of the new spoiled cards feel.

I haven't delved into the combination of factors mate, though I get your point - there are multiple strings you can pull to adjust a card's power level. Colossus could have easily been an 8/8 for 13 and would have still been incredibly powerful.
I was simply discussing here the myth that just because in MTGPQ you can generate arbitrary amounts of mana per turn, doesn't mean "card cost does not matter" or that "it can't really be used to balance truly broken cards". I myself used to say at some point that the card cost was not that hugely relevant, as long as the power level was up there, but more recent experience with planeswalkers such as Samut, Dovin, Bolas and Elspeth have proven to me again and again how relevant a healthy mana curve is.

Machine

The developers stated in the sneak peek that card costs are not set in stone, thus are still susceptible to changes. I do see a new trend in more expensive casting costs, but let's not get too hasty.

FindingHeart8

khurram said:

Tilwin90 said:

So no i don't think an op environment filled with  colossus and such is super healthy but I'd rather my colossus still cost the same and were smaller thant the other way around.
Cheers! 

How about if your colossus were smaller and it cost 10 more Mana?  
Because that's how most of the new spoiled cards feel.

@Tilwin90
@Stormcrow

Guysguysguysguysguys don't you see what they're doing??

I mean, it all makes sense really...

Did you really expect a bunch of creaky old boats and someone's overgrown pet lizard to be able to rival the might of:

• Kaledesh's galactic-starships?  Bolas-sponsered.

• The mystical Egypt where all people do is fight until-they-die-then-keep-on-fighting-but-now-with-bodies-made-of-adamantium-crystal?  Also Bolas-sponsered.

Ixalan is clearly a planet of slackers.  They're all looking for the treasure of Orazca so they can all be lazy and eat fried goblin-monkey all day.  This is clearly not a planet of the best-of-the-best, and that's what Octagon is trying to tell us.

Kardynal

We all think that power creep is a problem, surely. Standard format is so full of problem cards, to Rishkar's Expertise, to HUF, to Omniscience, to New Perspectives. Choosing to drop the overall power level of cards seems like a good idea, even if they're not going to fix old problem cards (which, let's be honest, desperately needs doing, but okay).

The problem is that cards like this are going too far.

This card is not weak by the standards of a broken card like Omniscience; it's not weak by the standards of a card that used to be broken like Drowner of Hope; it's not weak by the standards of an overpowered card like Gisela; it's not weak by the standards of a powerful/playable card like Abbot of Kher Keep. It's on a level with the kind of trash that never makes it into a deck, like Mindmelter, or Scrounger of Souls, or Duskwatch Recruiter.