Why we are disappointed in Ixalan's cards

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  • DBJones
    DBJones Posts: 803 Critical Contributor
    I also agree that none of these supports need to self-destruct, they're nowhere near that strong. Aether Vial losing 1-2 shields whenever you summon a creature would be fair, as long as reinforcing it adds 2-3. On the other hand, you seem to be underestimating mana drain and Curse of Predation (if they didn't kill themselves), Fluterstorm and Sphinx's Tutelage together would kill the AI's ability to play anything but that new dino that's immune. Curse of Predation, by the sound of the wording, might count double for double-strike creatures like Samut. If so, +2/+2 would be scary enough, though +3/+3 and not counting double would be more generally useful.
  • HelloKitty
    HelloKitty Posts: 26 Just Dropped In
    I concur with Babar completely. Well said. Houston, we have a problem. 

    I love this game. I have 4000+ mana crystals saved up for this set. I have invested  $500+ in cards and planeswalkers. More importantly, I have invested perhaps 1000 hours of my life playing these past 8 months.

    But having seen the actual cards, I don't know what to do. There are perhaps 3 cards I'd love to get. 10 more I'd play, in certain situations. 

    Oktagon: you broke my heart. Please listen to people like Babar. 



  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    DBJones said:
    I also agree that none of these supports need to self-destruct, they're nowhere near that strong. Aether Vial losing 1-2 shields whenever you summon a creature would be fair, as long as reinforcing it adds 2-3. On the other hand, you seem to be underestimating mana drain and Curse of Predation (if they didn't kill themselves), Fluterstorm and Sphinx's Tutelage together would kill the AI's ability to play anything but that new dino that's immune. Curse of Predation, by the sound of the wording, might count double for double-strike creatures like Samut. If so, +2/+2 would be scary enough, though +3/+3 and not counting double would be more generally useful.
    Mana drain only works on cards that have mana in them... if the effect made everything cost 2 more to cast for each card you cast on the previous turn it would be a solid masterpiece... and great if it didnt self destruct.  If you are forced to combo it with an origins uncommon for it to be useful, it is NOT masterpiece quality.
  • James13
    James13 Posts: 665 Critical Contributor
    I was seeing electrolyze as playable against your own creatures who have enrage effects...
  • Furks
    Furks Posts: 149 Tile Toppler
    Aether vial destroys itself when you cast a creature though. Not immediately upon charging. On the first turn it grants 1, then 2, then 3 etc... (assuming it starts with 1 shield?)  So long as you don't cast a creature it will keep growing. You can reorder your hand on each turn and disable creatures from casting to manipulate the charging for maximum benefits. It works somewhat similarly to baral, where you can focus on charging spells/supports while the vial will charge your creatures.

    I don't think the card is crazy overpowered but it definitely has some interesting applications and interactions.
  • Gideon
    Gideon Posts: 356 Mover and Shaker
    I’d rather have dark ritual and I do have dark ritual.
  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    Furks said:
    Aether vial destroys itself when you cast a creature though. Not immediately upon charging. On the first turn it grants 1, then 2, then 3 etc... (assuming it starts with 1 shield?)  So long as you don't cast a creature it will keep growing. You can reorder your hand on each turn and disable creatures from casting to manipulate the charging for maximum benefits. It works somewhat similarly to baral, where you can focus on charging spells/supports while the vial will charge your creatures.

    I don't think the card is crazy overpowered but it definitely has some interesting applications and interactions.
    Again, do we really need to be looking this deep to figure out how to make a masterpiece playable?  We have to run a strategy where we fill 3-4 creatures in our hand before deploying them.  Sound like a far, far, far, far, far worse version of Deploy the Gatewatch...
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    Furks said:
    Aether vial destroys itself when you cast a creature though. Not immediately upon charging. On the first turn it grants 1, then 2, then 3 etc... (assuming it starts with 1 shield?)  So long as you don't cast a creature it will keep growing. You can reorder your hand on each turn and disable creatures from casting to manipulate the charging for maximum benefits. It works somewhat similarly to baral, where you can focus on charging spells/supports while the vial will charge your creatures.

    I don't think the card is crazy overpowered but it definitely has some interesting applications and interactions.
    yeah that's really the only way I could think of to make it useful long-term for a heavy creature-based deck, but unless it's coming into play with special support-health privileges (aka being more than 3 swap-matches away from destruction or immune to support-removal spells) there's a good chance it won't last long-term anyways.

    As is, it would make a good rare though if they wanted to lower it's rarity.
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    khurram said:
    Aaaand here we go again. From the most underwhelming set in the short history of mtgpq, we still managed to pick the few good cards (a very rare sight in this set) and go overboard about how they are too powerful. I blame comments like those for the current fiasco. (that and devs inability to wrap their heads around this game's card design)

    There's already mass support removal in the game. We will survive River's Rebuke. As for it not being blue... well it is technically bounce.

    I cannot emphasize how right you are. Old habits die hard.
  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
    khurram said:
    Aaaand here we go again. From the most underwhelming set in the short history of mtgpq, we still managed to pick the few good cards (a very rare sight in this set) and go overboard about how they are too powerful. I blame comments like those for the current fiasco. (that and devs inability to wrap their heads around this game's card design)

    There's already mass support removal in the game. We will survive River's Rebuke. As for it not being blue... well it is technically bounce.

    Mass support removal is already in the game, in the colors that are meant to do it. Blue has no way in paper to permanently deal with removing artifacts, enchantments, or land. All of these types are supports in PQ. The biggest issue is it destroys the cards if your hand is full. I'd imagine it returns creatures first and then supports so the supports will almost always get destroyed. Not to mention you lose all your reinforcements of those creatures and supports. Saying it's technically bounce doesn't change the fact that bounce has always been too strong in PQ. River's Rebuke just takes it to the absolute extreme. This card may be one of the few good cards in the set but it is arguably better than two incredibly powerful mythics from previous sets: Engulf the Shore and Crush of Tentacles. Both only hit creatures, Engulf only hit opponents creatures and put them on top of the library. Crush hit all creatures and left a large creature in their place and had the same "destroy on full hand" effect. I'd take River's Rebuke over either of those every single time.
  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
    Given all the "this support loses 1 shield" going around, and Brigby's explanation for how Treasures are supposed to work...I almost wonder if Oktagon just doesn't realize that when you make a match that hits a support, the support loses 1 shield.
  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    Stormcrow said:
    Given all the "this support loses 1 shield" going around, and Brigby's explanation for how Treasures are supposed to work...I almost wonder if Oktagon just doesn't realize that when you make a match that hits a support, the support loses 1 shield.
    The fact that you even ask such a question is beyond ridiculous.
  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
    I mean....it's pretty clear they don't get the difference between paper Vigilance and PQ Vigilance (see Glorifier of Dusk). It does make one wonder what other basic mechanics of this game have eluded them.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    So ... you want to change these to fit the power creep you've been ranting about for months? Or am I missing something here? Because rarity should NOT imply power. Just an unusual effect that it does. WotC has already been pushing that perception for sometime now in regards to mythics and MP. 

    Aether vial: yes you're correct,  you have no idea of its shield strength. For all we know this could very well be a delayed albiet stronger version of Talent of the Telepath but regards to your hand and not from your library. If it does come in play with a large shield... rotating creatures in hand to be loaded can provide a Solid triple drop. This can be a solid tactic especially when facing an opponent that can pick off 1 by 1 but not 3. We have all been there. Not to mention that reinforce tactics have come back so this card helps to drop three or more like-creatures you've been loading up to reinforce. 

    Curse of predation doesn't need any bump on how much it should change stats. What you're suggesting IS OP. But I do agree that the shield loss should be removed. Double strike with thus card even at +1/+1 per hit is nasty enough to be honest. If you don't think so... then may I suggest you don't  play Solemn recuit if you think it's that bad. That card is a mainstay power house for obvious reasons... this MP makes it more so... but the shield bit is problematic for sure.


    Electrolyze.... you are correct in how this MP is not very effective against creatures; non-token creatures that is. At 7 mana this is a fancy removal card meant to be used against tokens. This card simply slaughters anything we've got with the exception of desolation twins and Kiora's third loyalty octopus' ... if I left anything out, it wasn't intentional.  Anyways,  almost every  reinforced token creature is good as dead. Great card to add to removal IMHO. I have vindicate and Slaughter pact... no reason this can't add flavor.  Lol


    Flutterstorm has do much potential... I disagree about 2 mana being insignificant... ESPECIALLY if oktagon is going the higher cost route. In the long term this card will be important. Is sphinx tutelage is bad for its 2 mana ability? I sure as heck don't think so.  Anyways... again I agree whole heartedly that the shield loss hurts far more than what is gained. 


    Sanguine is amazing.... I wouldn't call it niche. Vraska with Nissa's renewal, season's past and RE? Sorin and Approach of the second sun? And I'm curious is Oketra's blessing or something or other... the one that heals you fully counts too. Anyways. There are some pretty good tricks that can be achieved. I again agree that the shield loss is a bit of over kill 

    Food for thought.... maybe the shield dropping has to do with increased mana costs making support removal that much more difficult in the near future... in essence maybe Oktagon had the foresight to nip this problem in the bud early? Granted it doesn't help NOW, but later on I can see it
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Drewster said:
    I'm so happy Sanguine Bond is in! I just wish it did not self-destruct... Hope it comes with at least 10 shields the way it is now. If the self destruct mechanism is removed, it could just have 2 shields and be perfect.
    If it didn't self destruct, it would be ridiculously overpowered given the size of creatures in this game. Consider your Angel of Invention hitting someone for 13 lifelink damage, not reinforced, and then your opponent losing another 13 life. And of course, you're not going to be playing that as your only life linking creatures, so it's still a support that you can drop and immediately win the game even with the self destruction. The advantage it gives you is too large to just sit on the field.

    babar3355 said:

    1. Aether Vial: (7 mana - colorless- support) At the beggining of your turn, this support gains 1 shield.  At the end of your turn, the first creature in your hand gains mana equal to this supports shield.  Destroy this support when you cast a creature.
    Problem: Unless this card comes into the battlefield with 7+ shields on it, there are very few circumstances where it would be decent.  It is susceptible to support removal, gem matching, etc.  And the payoff is 1 creature before it self destructs....  Most times it would be better just to put the 7 mana towards the actual creature. Also, the effect at the end of turn makes it even worse.

    Solution: Don't have it self destruct.  It would then be like an accelerating shrine/pyramid that only adds mana to creatures.  You could focus on controlling the board state while working towards getting creatures onto the battlefield.  A solid, somewhat niche, but interesting design. 

    This card is a combo piece. Let it charge up several creatures then drop them at once. This is especially valuable for creatures you want entering in a specific order for max effect. So you let this charge them all up, then drop 3 or more creatures all at once. Remember, combos and interesting interactions are exactly what they are trying to do with these cards, not just make an "easy" button.
  • Corn_Noodles
    Corn_Noodles Posts: 477 Mover and Shaker
    We are disappointed in the Ixalan cards, because we are human, and life is series of unending disappointments.
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited February 2018
    wereotter said:
    babar3355 said:

    1. Aether Vial: (7 mana - colorless- support) At the beggining of your turn, this support gains 1 shield.  At the end of your turn, the first creature in your hand gains mana equal to this supports shield.  Destroy this support when you cast a creature.
    Problem: Unless this card comes into the battlefield with 7+ shields on it, there are very few circumstances where it would be decent.  It is susceptible to support removal, gem matching, etc.  And the payoff is 1 creature before it self destructs....  Most times it would be better just to put the 7 mana towards the actual creature. Also, the effect at the end of turn makes it even worse.

    Solution: Don't have it self destruct.  It would then be like an accelerating shrine/pyramid that only adds mana to creatures.  You could focus on controlling the board state while working towards getting creatures onto the battlefield.  A solid, somewhat niche, but interesting design.  

    This card is a combo piece. Let it charge up several creatures then drop them at once. This is especially valuable for creatures you want entering in a specific order for max effect. So you let this charge them all up, then drop 3 or more creatures all at once. Remember, combos and interesting interactions are exactly what they are trying to do with these cards, not just make an "easy" button.
    Aether Vial takes up a support slot to very slowly charge up only creatures in your hand while you hold off the opponent so you can dump them all out at once, maybe in a specific order, and then the support that builds up by 1 every turn goes poof.

    Or, alternatively, you could put Pyramid of the Pantheon in it's place for a lower cost, that reinforces quickly and can dump tons of mana into your hand for every card and doesn't disappear when you dump out creatures. You can still dump those creatures out, and everything else, in the order of your choosing.

    It's a worse Pyramid of the Pantheon.
  • MTG_Mage
    MTG_Mage Posts: 224 Tile Toppler
    I really like the slow self-destruct mechanic on supports and think it should be used a lot more (I am looking at you NP, DH, FotD - plus an increase in cost on those 3 and cycling is 'fixed').
    The amount of shields a support has with the self-destruct mechanic is very important.
    In the case of these specific elite cards it may not be necessary, but consider having them at 1 or 2 shields without it, or 4+ with it, what would you prefer?
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brakkis said:
    wereotter said:
    babar3355 said:

    1. Aether Vial: (7 mana - colorless- support) At the beggining of your turn, this support gains 1 shield.  At the end of your turn, the first creature in your hand gains mana equal to this supports shield.  Destroy this support when you cast a creature.
    Problem: Unless this card comes into the battlefield with 7+ shields on it, there are very few circumstances where it would be decent.  It is susceptible to support removal, gem matching, etc.  And the payoff is 1 creature before it self destructs....  Most times it would be better just to put the 7 mana towards the actual creature. Also, the effect at the end of turn makes it even worse.

    Solution: Don't have it self destruct.  It would then be like an accelerating shrine/pyramid that only adds mana to creatures.  You could focus on controlling the board state while working towards getting creatures onto the battlefield.  A solid, somewhat niche, but interesting design.  

    This card is a combo piece. Let it charge up several creatures then drop them at once. This is especially valuable for creatures you want entering in a specific order for max effect. So you let this charge them all up, then drop 3 or more creatures all at once. Remember, combos and interesting interactions are exactly what they are trying to do with these cards, not just make an "easy" button.
    Aether Vial takes up a support slot to very slowly charge up only creatures in your hand while you hold off the opponent so you can dump them all out at once, maybe in a specific order, and then the support that builds up by 1 every turn goes poof.

    Or, alternatively, you could put Pyramid of the Pantheon in it's place for a lower cost, that reinforces quickly and can dump tons of mana into your hand for every card and doesn't disappear when you dump out creatures. You can still dump those creatures out, and everything else, in the order of your choosing.

    It's a worse Pyramid of the Pantheon.


    1. You, myself or anyone have no idea how many shields this starts with. You would be correct if it starts with one. But like anyone else, you're guessing and a guess is about as close to fact as flower is to a frog. Just for the record,  pyramid of the pantheon is a great card but.... you still need to draw it to play it. it's only as good as you can reinforce it, IF you can. This is a one and done. I've no clue to what its shield is but if its above what PotP starts with... then it's  aces above PotP. But that too is a guess.  Guess we will have to wait. :p haha I kill me some days. 
  • Gilesclone
    Gilesclone Posts: 735 Critical Contributor
    Yeah, but Pyramid of the Pantheon is crazy overpowered.

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