PvP versus Sportsmanship

Jarvind

There is no honor or sportsmanship in competitive gaming. Winning is all that matters.

justsing

The slice you choose will affect your MMR and the opponents you see, but SCL doesn’t. AFAIK SCL really only affects placement, so I don’t get why you’re comparing about SCL7 vs. SCL9.

I feel bad tapping people multiple times, but when I’m trying to hit 900 and I’m seeing the same 4 people over and over again, I’m going to keep going for the same targets, especially if there’s one that much easier to beat than the others. I try not to tap more than 3x because I hate it when it happens to me. But that’s just how PVP is, and there aren’t any hard and fast rules so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Justice Jacks

Jarvind said:

There is no honor or sportsmanship in competitive gaming. Winning is all that matters.

You're crazy.  When I show up for a basketball game and see the other team is not as skilled as we are, I immediately forfeit and leave because it would be unsportsmanlike to go out there and compete against them.

[Deleted User]

acescracked said:

Dapptastic said:

Kjeldbjerg said:

You are matched against everyone in your slice, not just the 1000 in your bracket. And Scl determines who you face for placement and the rewards, not who you are matched against.

And seriously, this has nothing to do with sportsmanship. You decided to show up to a Formula one race on your bike. Of course you're gonna get left behind.

Using your fantastic (playing it fast and loose there too) metaphor--shouldn't the F1 series be SCL9??

Your statement that I--a "bike" user--shouldn't expect to be competitive is laughable.  Glad I know you're on the wrong side of reason now tho, so now I can just overlook your inputs in the future with the full confidence I won't be missing anything that matters.

Thanks for playing, have a good day!

It appears you are not happy with any responses that don't mesh with your personal "way to play". Then respond in a troll like manner.

Simple fact is I have two targets and one is easier and worth nearly the same points I'm going to ring it dry. As should you.

Because responding in a reciprocal way means I'm a troll?

I'm absolutely okay with a difference of perspective as long as people are expressing their differences in a respectful manner with the intent to benefit expanded learning.

If I am mistaken and somebody corrects me--thanks!  If I'm mistaken and somebody calls me a two-wheeled tricycle...remind me again--who benefits?  Right!

I'm about positive forces for change--no time for naysayers and negative nancies.  Sorry--but not sorry if that bothers you.

[Deleted User]

OJSP said:

Dapptastic said:

This is really an agnostic debate because without concrete data from both SCL pools for the same slice, which I'm coming to understand contains players from other brackets, we cannot even know.

My claim was made purely from empirical observation, since I typically play SCL8-9 in a slice around mid-day, usually slices 2 or 3.

My experience recounted above is not the same as when playing in my usual slice/SCL ^^^.

I disagree that people *need* to be hit repeatedly--I get you didn't say that verbatim--but that's clearly the implication.  I felt like an absolute tool hitting that same guy so many times yesterday and if they were unshielded--they didn't deserve it--especially if I have correctly understood that the opponent pool transcends the 1000-person ladder we join.  Hard to believe that out of potentially thousands of players that I would repeatedly see the same 3-6 targets--that makes no sense and that's dummy math to try to justify as being the correct expectation.

Just because sportsmanship discussions don't end well doesn't mean we ought to turn a blind eye, I cannot overstate the fact that nobody has ever profited from tacit consent to wrong.

Organized competition is born from the spirit of sport, so to treat these ill trends like they're okay even tho they are the de facto status quo doesn't mean that's the way it should be.  There are so many functional examples of organized sports pooling equal (or equal-like) competition into brackets, leagues exist for this and there is nothing to say we shouldn't expect the same here.  I mean SCLs kinda act like leagues but when you find people with 550 5*s in SCL7--a mid-tier "league" with the highest-possible competitor??  Something isn't working right.

I'd rather clean house the hard way than live in filth just because it's easier than the road ahead to a better state of affairs.

I don't really talk to my alliance about PvP because they are PvE outfit.  Makes sense doesn't it?

I glean what I can about PvP from discussions on these boards but it's not like there is a comprehensive walkthrough about the ins-and-outs of all things PvP, about which I know.  So if I speak from ignorance and you took exception to it, you'll just have to forgive me or see your way out of the discussion.

There’s nothing to forgive and I am happy to discuss anything you want to discuss. I wanted to offer some suggestions, but I wanted to know what you already know first. I was also merely pointing out the fact that many of these discussions end up getting locked, so don’t get your hopes up or surprised when it happens.

Firstly, I just wanted to clarify what you meant about seeing more whales in SCL7, in the bracket/leaderboard or in your nodes. That’s all. I think the fact that you have a championed Thanos is also an important detail that you didn’t mention. With having a championed 5*, a lvl 435 5* and a lvl 405 5*, you are visible to players with 2 championed 5*s from the start. You will get hit by them if you’re not considered friendly in a coordinating shard and also by anyone else who could hit you.

Your current alliance is a part of a bigger alliance family. One of the oldest one in the game and a lot more experienced than most of the forum users who will derail the thread and end up causing this thread to be locked.

What I’m saying is, why don’t you speak to your PvP or U players or commanders first? I also know you would fare better in S2 because there would be less people hitting you.

Here’s a guide that I’ve been quoting for anyone who said there’s no info about how to PvP. It’s quite old, but it’s still relevant: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/33283/hayeks-guide-to-reaching-high-pvp-progression-rewards/

Dude, seriously thanks for your feedback and time finding that link.  I will check it out and in the spirit of not derailing this thread--I will PM you more info.

acescracked

Dapptastic said:

acescracked said:

Dapptastic said:

Kjeldbjerg said:

You are matched against everyone in your slice, not just the 1000 in your bracket. And Scl determines who you face for placement and the rewards, not who you are matched against.

And seriously, this has nothing to do with sportsmanship. You decided to show up to a Formula one race on your bike. Of course you're gonna get left behind.

Using your fantastic (playing it fast and loose there too) metaphor--shouldn't the F1 series be SCL9??

Your statement that I--a "bike" user--shouldn't expect to be competitive is laughable.  Glad I know you're on the wrong side of reason now tho, so now I can just overlook your inputs in the future with the full confidence I won't be missing anything that matters.

Thanks for playing, have a good day!

It appears you are not happy with any responses that don't mesh with your personal "way to play". Then respond in a troll like manner.

Simple fact is I have two targets and one is easier and worth nearly the same points I'm going to ring it dry. As should you.

Because responding in a reciprocal way means I'm a troll?

I'm absolutely okay with a difference of perspective as long as people are expressing their differences in a respectful manner with the intent to benefit expanded learning.

If I am mistaken and somebody corrects me--thanks!  If I'm mistaken and somebody calls me a two-wheeled tricycle...remind me again--who benefits?  Right!

I'm about positive forces for change--no time for naysayers and negative nancies.  Sorry--but not sorry if that bothers you.

Tell me exactly where I said your post bothered me or words to that affect? 

j0nats

redviper85 said:

You will NEVER hit 1200 without a champed Gambit or at least a champed relevant 5*. I was able to hit it with Gambit and Chavez but I still needed people to show me how. I don't know the specifics but after a certain score you are being seen by everyone in your MMR group. you screwed yourself by leveling up 2 underdeveloped 5*s so high. so once you get high enough everyone sees you and jumps on you.

At your level i would get to around 600 or so( where ever you can safely float without getting pounced on by bigger teams). keep skipping until you find 3 beatable teams worth lots of points and make a dash for 800, shield up, then dash for 900 a few hours later. if you get hit once SHIELD!!! that was just the quickest of the bunch; there are at least 3 more incoming! if you don't shield you will continue to play the 1 step forward 3 steps back game until you are out of health packs.

Also when I shield I look at the leader board, shut down the game, and quickly restart it. That forces the server to update your status as shielded. I've gotten late hits before by not doing this. I've heard that either action updates the server so i do them both to be extra safe. 

this is not true.  some alliance mates hit 1200 with just 4 stars.  ive been doing it with im46 and phoenix and sometimes surfer.

 before that with surfer + boosted 4 (pre-arrival of gambit).

you just have to follow the (unwritten) rules.

Pr0spect0r

Dapptastic said:

Kjeldbjerg said:

You are matched against everyone in your slice, not just the 1000 in your bracket. And Scl determines who you face for placement and the rewards, not who you are matched against.

And seriously, this has nothing to do with sportsmanship. You decided to show up to a Formula one race on your bike. Of course you're gonna get left behind.

Using your fantastic (playing it fast and loose there too) metaphor--shouldn't the F1 series be SCL9??

Your statement that I--a "bike" user--shouldn't expect to be competitive is laughable.  Glad I know you're on the wrong side of reason now tho, so now I can just overlook your inputs in the future with the full confidence I won't be missing anything that matters.

Thanks for playing, have a good day!

the scl differences just make different progression and placement awards. regarding the poor fools you fight or fight you, is mention by others.

Daiches

First of all, can we please stop taking about 1000 person brackets. This isn't PVE. In PVP brackets are 500 people.
Now we when you enter a slice, that's is what determines who you can fight. Anyone that has joined the same timeslot can be fought by you and you by them. Who can see who is determined by Match Making Rating. MMR is a combination of your team roster and your current score relative to the other people in the slice. You can see different teams when at different scores. Your MMR would offer you 5star teams, and you would be offered to other 5 star teams. Your team however is a tasty snack for most other 5star teams.
What scl you choose only has an effect on what your rewards table is and in who you are in a bracket with for placement rewards. People tend to spread out across Scl7-9 because there's just aren't enough brackets for competitive players. So yes, you will still see big rosters in your Scl7 bracket. Some rosters even intentionally choose a lower scl because they don't need/want the 4star rewards and want to leave spots in higher scl for their alliance mates.
There is plenty of advice that can be given, but the forum really isn't the best place for it. Talk to your alliance family via your preferred chat app. It's easier to hold a conversation there.

Kjeldbjerg

By leveling your undercovered 5* as high as you did, you asked the game to treat you/match you against other 5*, who are well covered. When matched with 2 options, which give a similar reward/points, many will choose the easier, and thereby faster, option. Whether that is good game design or not, is another discussion.
People are trying to explain how the game actually works to you

Milk Jugz

You should come to s1

Quebbster

Try running Thanos instead of Black Bolt, he and Gambit are a quite effective combo, and since your Thanos is way better than your Bolt you might get better results that way. It's not quite as fast as Gambolt, but people may be less inclined to hit Thanos at least.

[Deleted User]

Daiches said:

First of all, can we please stop taking about 1000 person brackets. This isn't PVE. In PVP brackets are 500 people.
Now we when you enter a slice, that's is what determines who you can fight. Anyone that has joined the same timeslot can be fought by you and you by them. Who can see who is determined by Match Making Rating. MMR is a combination of your team roster and your current score relative to the other people in the slice. You can see different teams when at different scores. Your MMR would offer you 5star teams, and you would be offered to other 5 star teams. Your team however is a tasty snack for most other 5star teams.
What scl you choose only has an effect on what your rewards table is and in who you are in a bracket with for placement rewards. People tend to spread out across Scl7-9 because there's just aren't enough brackets for competitive players. So yes, you will still see big rosters in your Scl7 bracket. Some rosters even intentionally choose a lower scl because they don't need/want the 4star rewards and want to leave spots in higher scl for their alliance mates.
There is plenty of advice that can be given, but the forum really isn't the best place for it. Talk to your alliance family via your preferred chat app. It's easier to hold a conversation there.

haha, sure!  I wasn't aware that A. there was a different limit and B. it made your hair stand on-end.

Like I have already stated previously, I'm not exactly in the know but learning a lot from the people with constructive feedback in this thread.  The fact that a lot of "trade secrets" are shared around in LINE App and treated like "insider trading information" should give you guys a reasonable expectation that many people outside of those circles don't know this stuff.

I will only apologize for speaking out of ignorance once before I can remind you that I didn't know.

That much of the pertinent details aren't available, except in random snippets, scattered intermittently through various posts on this forum should clearly betray that it is problematic for players trying to climb higher but struggle if they don't know all this stuff.  The problems are multi-fold.  That all info isn't in one coherent location, and the link @OJSP shared is really good, albeit dated, isn't even stickied.

Thanks for elaborating on how the MMR works.

And I do agree that my team is a "tasty snack," I saw Hayeks termed it the "juicy queue."  It can't be helped by me until I get more covers tho.

To clarify: in a given slice--we might find players from multiple SCLs in the target pool???

I am feeling kinda inspired to compile a lot of this information into one source that can at least serve as a launchpad for new players interested in taking the plunge, as Hayeks stated--the more players with points the easier it is to climb--Reaganomics works!

I'd hate to do it without a sticky being on the table--anybody know the score with how to go about getting stuff stickied?  Why isn't Hayeks' guide stickied??

[Deleted User]

aesthetocyst said:

Huh-huh-huh, huh-huh-huh, huh-huh-huh, He said "sporthschmansthip."

And took his well-covered, capped, highly synergistic 5* duo into SCL7.

That's not very sporting-like.

I get that you're trying to point your hypocrisy stick but I already admitted I avoid hitting people I think have weaker rosters.  Most of my targets are usually 5* champs.

Nice try but that hypocrisy stick is more like a wet noodle.

Don't beat yourself up for it tho--at least you tried.

[Deleted User]

acescracked said:

Dapptastic said:

acescracked said:

Dapptastic said:

Kjeldbjerg said:

You are matched against everyone in your slice, not just the 1000 in your bracket. And Scl determines who you face for placement and the rewards, not who you are matched against.

And seriously, this has nothing to do with sportsmanship. You decided to show up to a Formula one race on your bike. Of course you're gonna get left behind.

Using your fantastic (playing it fast and loose there too) metaphor--shouldn't the F1 series be SCL9??

Your statement that I--a "bike" user--shouldn't expect to be competitive is laughable.  Glad I know you're on the wrong side of reason now tho, so now I can just overlook your inputs in the future with the full confidence I won't be missing anything that matters.

Thanks for playing, have a good day!

It appears you are not happy with any responses that don't mesh with your personal "way to play". Then respond in a troll like manner.

Simple fact is I have two targets and one is easier and worth nearly the same points I'm going to ring it dry. As should you.

Because responding in a reciprocal way means I'm a troll?

I'm absolutely okay with a difference of perspective as long as people are expressing their differences in a respectful manner with the intent to benefit expanded learning.

If I am mistaken and somebody corrects me--thanks!  If I'm mistaken and somebody calls me a two-wheeled tricycle...remind me again--who benefits?  Right!

I'm about positive forces for change--no time for naysayers and negative nancies.  Sorry--but not sorry if that bothers you.

Tell me exactly where I said your post bothered me or words to that affect? 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe your initial comments weren't trying to imply I was outright rejecting a difference of opinion.  That really isn't the case, I respect others entitlement to a difference of perspective since we all walk different paths.  I do take exception when others won't afford me the same courtesy tho--make sense?  I try to play nice with others and I expect the same--simple golden rule.

You stated that I appeared to not be "happy" with responses; while you're entitled to your opinion--A. I don't see how happiness is relevant or has any bearing in the tone of my responses B. I have expressed gratitude (arguably a hallmark of "happiness") to many responders for their constructive feedback.

I also wanted to respond to you since you took the time to respond to me.

So if I responded unkind-like--apologies.  I don't try to rub people the wrong way but if people wanna come at me with no manners then I have no problems responding in kind either.

I also understand that not everybody can articulate themselves with the graceful art of diplomacy at the same time, so again--apologies if I came at you with the wrong tone.

Cheers!

CharlieCroker

To clarify, the SCL you play in makes no difference to the targets you'll see in a given slice.  The only thing that counts is roster strength/MMR.

In an old alliance we had someone with 490+ 5*s accidentally join SCL1 (for a whole season ) He could still only queue other 5* teams, who were almost exclusively in SCL6-8.  But I believe he did get season #1 by a fairly wide margin.

[Deleted User]

CharlieCroker said:

To clarify, the SCL you play in makes no difference to the targets you'll see in a given slice.  The only thing that counts is roster strength/MMR.

In an old alliance we had someone with 490+ 5*s accidentally join SCL1 (for a whole season ) He could still only queue other 5* teams, who were almost exclusively in SCL6-8.  But I believe he did get season #1 by a fairly wide margin.

1. Incredible!
2. Hilarious!
3. That is super insightful, it confirms my understanding of Daiches' explanation--so thanks!

Ducky

***Keep things civil and constructive please while remaining on topic. Thanks!***

evade420

Dapptastic said:

evade420 said:

so you are running 2 Under covered 5* that you have leveled up over lvl 400.
2 problems with this.
1 - your MMR has now gone up based on the levels of those 2 characters, and you will be more visible to bigger rosters are you are now very close to full 5* MMR
2 - Using un-champed 5* (or any character ) in PVP makes you stick out like a sore thumb, and with your gambit only at 4 black, I could take down your whole team with a single champed gambit faster that you could take me down with under covered gambit/bolt/whoever.

Until you get those 5*s covered and champed you are going to have climb quick and shield , once you are over 750-800 your shield hops are going to have to be quick and calculated, cuz everbody is going to see you and want to take you out

do you know the in-and-outs of MMR factors?

I honestly have a vague understanding that some levels influence it but I don't know the math.

MMR is still somewhat of a mystery however from my experience I can tell you that I saw a change at level 390 then level 420 then the big one at 450.
We know that it takes into account at least your top three character levels ,and boosted character levels are supposed to be taken into account as well, although that is debatable .
I remember when I first champed thanos he was my first 5* champion my second highest character was a 4* around level 285 boosted to let's say 375 or so , PvP was a breeze I was taking down big 4* teams and rarely saw a team with more than one 5* champ and never over level 455.
Then I leveled panther to 420 and boom dual 5* teams 80% of the time,  plus I was getting hit by level 460 5* teams and all of a sudden It got a lot harder to hit 1200 . Going from 900 to 1200 was tough I just wasn't finding targets I could beat quickly .
Now I have a full 5* roster with 7 champs and PvP is pretty smooth depending on which slice and what my goals are , but MMR is still pretty stingy and often have to skip dozens of times to find a target that I haven't already hit . In my opinion the MMR is and always has been the biggest problem with PVP

purplemur

Occasionally I read these posts about PvP Bullying/Sportmanship and the like. It always highlights that there is a real chasm between players: Those that take every advantage the platform affords and those that are ignorant about how the machine works. Once players "get it": how to hold points and how to hop, etc, there is no sympathy for doe-eyed players who wander in and get frustrated by the impossibility of full prog.  It's almost like medical school hazing: I went through it so put up and deal mentality. which is why there are so many warnings about these type of threads getting shut down.
I feel for you:
When SCL's became a thing we all got huge influx of iso & silly newb me- I poured it into my two 5's with maybe a combined 8 covers between them and they were NOT synergistic. so my MMR was totes ruined and I just quit on PvP. 
I agree with most of your crits:
The point drop can be heartbreaking, the queuing can seem broken, and the competition is fierce, hampered by the failure of the devs to do product improvements. And the forum isn't straightforward in presenting  PvP help threads.
I appreciate your approach to earning rewards:
If I have to be dirty to get them, then I don't want them.
but I feel like your being fairly anachronistic:
Imagine playing youth hockey and then you play an Irish Hurling league team and they smash you in the mouth and knock you over even when you don't have the puck and generally say things you don't understand that seem pretty insulting and then when your like that was no fun they bristle at the concept of "fair play" because in their mind they were playing fair. In truth you were playing two different games. You were looking for a skills challenge and they were looking to tally goals for the playoffs. The league cup only goes to the players who play "that game". Don't quit playing how you like to play but expectations might need to be tempered to reflect how the play on the ice actually goes. 

The golden rule applies even if the other party doesn't treat you as you want to be. That is not license to snap and snarl back to every single reply that you may or may not agree with and then say well you started it! you can let some of it go. "let it go, let it go! the snark never bothered me anyway!"