PvP versus Sportsmanship

[Deleted User]
[Deleted User] Posts: 0 Match Maker
edited January 2018 in MPQ General Discussion
At the top of this year, I was gifted 6x (5* Gambit) covers, putting me squarely at 12 covers.

Having experienced how swiftly that guy can take control of a match, I decided to level him up and give him a whirl with a 10-cover lvl-405 BlackBolt (3-2-5), with lvl-435 Gambit at (3-5-4).  I run that because Gambit's effectively is critically dependent on his AP battery passives and Silent King buffs Gambit's AP battery; bear in mind if Silent King isn't running--it's really not that great a team since BlackBolt's passive damage is at an underwhelming level-2 and if there are no red, it's just a match-dmg contest, more-or-less.

What does this have to do with PvP and-or sportsmanship?

That little narrative is the condition that prompted me to try my hand at PvP more competitively.  Before, my only objective in any PvP was the 575-point 10CP reward, I stopped playing when the rewards became based on quantity of matches won--the reason being is that I think that promoted a platform of competition that fosters preying on other players with weaker rosters and the sportsman in me just doesn't agree with that.  I personally skip over matches, regardless of point value, if it looks like the other player has a considerably less-developed roster (subjective, I know--but we all have an idea of who is in our league or not).  I hate preying on weaker rosters because I hate losing points to whales or people with far more-developed rosters than mine, where essentially even if I tried to retaliate--it's borderline impossible because my opponent just outclasses me.

I recently took interest in PvP after learning about the journey to 1200 that some other guy posted, it was a gratitude/narrative of how it works--a pretty articulate post that was lucid and outlined the process well.  So I learned more about the thresholds for shielding, shield-hopping, grill teams, etc..  I was just gleaning tactics and etiquette from other players and thought I could try it myself.

I tried it with BlueShift and it was bar-none the most frustrating experience I have ever had in PvP because the degree of factors outside of my control overwhelm anything else in my control.

I try to only attack players with VERY similar roster development or better.

The so-called MMR just feels utterly broken.  I feel like we're really playing it fast and loose with the idea that 'matchmaking' has any degree of fairness, considering that in modern English, when "matchmaking" is the subject of discussion--it is well implied that matching is done on the basis of complementary qualities.  The methods of application of that concept in this game, well I don't know much about that but playing under the rules of that product--all I know is that it's broken.  My outlook is based on the fact that players with far-better developed rosters were just abusing my team.  I'd advance forward some 60+ points just to get hit for -175 points, then to make matters worse--the only way to recover any of that lost ground was to keep hitting the same guy--I felt awful, I can only hope he was shielded but matchmaking wasn't giving me any better alternatives.  It raised the question "how do so many different people keep finding me, if I can only find the same 3-4 guys when skipping?"  I try not to hit the same folks too many times--again because I hate it when people grind on me too much.  The only time I hit the same player more than twice is if it's a retaliation pissing contest and even then, only when the points I stand to win won't be severely offset by what they might gain if they hit me back--I don't play the loss-leader game.

Clearly the concept of sportsmanship is alien to a lot of other players in this game, because if the glove was on the other hand--I wouldn't be attacking me, given the roster disparities, and I'm not trying to frame the argument that people shouldn't attack me because players are clearly operating within the bounds that demiurge has set for them...in the so-called "MMR" landscape.  But it does seem pretty unbalanced and broken.

I find matchmaking to be a blunder of opportunities encouraging players to prey on others with clearly inferior rosters.

The economics here results in monopolies and stratifying player demographics with extreme disparities.  Consider that if matchmaking was more appropriate--more players would probably play and on grounds where things feel equally opportunistic--I don't think players would bat an eye at investing in healthpacks, AP boosts, or what have you.

I didn't count how many times I was attacked last night trying to get to 900, but I recall that for every match where I won, it seemed like I was losing 3-4--that ratio is awful.  In a 1000-player bracket, does that even make sense?  I don't know.

It was my first excursion into slice 4 and I thought with my relatively underdeveloped roster that I should try SCL7--I found more whales there than I have found playing in SCL9--shameful!

I will never try slice 4 again, or SCL7--it's sickening how the mechanics of PvP as they currently are seem to treat some players like feeder teams.  I lost some 900 points before I could even advance 200.  <--not cool, I mean if I get hit 5-10 times, they should remove me from the matchmaking pool for a time until they fix matchmaking.

I don't have a weak roster but this week is godawful for my boosted characters.  I mean starlord with gambit, the colorsets are nearly identical.  I have 32/62 4*s champed.  No cyclops tho, the middle crop of 4*s are really underdeveloped for me because I took a 20-month break right after the 2-year anniversary.

I am sure many might agree that the developers need to review and revise the matchmaking mechanics.

Does anybody else think they're broken?

I don't know how others play and I'm not here to impose my ethics on others but I wonder if any others approach PvP with the same sense of sportsmanship as I do.  I know statistically there should be but statistics don't always resonate with reality when outliers might be the case.

My takeaway from the whole experience is this:

- never going to buy healthpacks again if demiurge wants to keep feeding me to other players at a rate where I will constantly lose ground no matter how much I am able to advance; losing 100-200 points for every 50, occurring about 4-5 cycles.  I will not prop up a system designed to exploit my resources with no reasonable promise for a return on my investment.
- matchmaking needs a COMPLETE overhaul; I will NOT recommend PvP or investing in-game resources to any player until something is done about this; revision needs to occur on a frequent basis
- it is a very real thing in the world of application development to patch, demiurge patches this game often but this broken facet of their game really shouldn't be on a backburner, assuming it's even an objective at all

I don't care if I lose out on progression rewards because clearly those rewards aren't meant for people like me who want to obtain them through fair play.  I would be okay with throwing 200HP at a 5-pack of healthpacks if only occasionally I was getting hit too much or just getting crushed by opponents in matches, provided I was making measurable progress.

Last night--that was NOT my experience.  Given the choice to just feed others or lose out on personal, progression rewards--my mindset is that of a general--if I cannot win, I will deny my opponent any tactical or strategic advantage and if that means playing a zero-sum game--so be it.  I ain't nobody's patsy.

Just thought I'd share my experience.  For anybody else who might be playing with eyes wide shut like I was before this last BlueShift event.

#mindblown

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Comments

  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
    "Gifted"?  How'd that happen, and how can I get in on it?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm 100% f2p, and I'm typically a 575-and-out pvp player. It's only recently that I've been able to push to the end of Simulator, and i've managed to hit 900 in pvp on weeks a few of my 9 4* champions have been boosted, incidentally without ever shielding. I've tried shielding a couple times, and it didn't work, and i ended up just out hp for my troubles.

    PVP is kind of all jacked up, it's true. SCLs seem to have no bearing on anything save what rewards you get; whenever I've dropped down i see the same types of roster, so what's the point of them?

    Additionally, no matter what kind of roster I have, I find that i'm able to push up to around the same point values in around the same numbers of matches, using around the same numbers of health packs. Almost as if the game is arranging it under the hood for me to get knocked WAY back as soon as I hit 850pts. So with that trend, it never really feels like there are "people" on the other side of those enemy teams that make me want to use sportsmanship; my goal is to get to the highest point value i can in the shortest time, so i look for matches worth points, and then i look to see if i can win against the team, almost never actually looking at the name of the player. When I recognize the same beat-able team pop up, then i'll notice "oh, it's that team again," and if the points are over 40, i'll probably hit them again. I look at it as me vs the MMR system, not me vs other players. Waiting for people to shield, avoiding beatable high-point teams out of courtesy, I have no time for it. Let me get those progression rewards, and I'll leave you to it.
  • Crnch73
    Crnch73 Posts: 504 Critical Contributor
    I usually try to not attack the same person too many times, but I also rarely pay attention to player names. So it’s tough, I often just skip teams that look similar to ones I’ve beaten recently, which may be detriment to myself. But yes, there is no real etiquette amongst most players I feel. Sorry if that offends anyone, definitely not singling anyone out. MMR has been broken for a long time and will continue to be, I fear. Not because it benefits the developers to leave it this way, but rather it is too much work for them to fix it. They seem to only fix tiny things, which is a shame. Too much time wrapped up in new releases I suppose
  • PenniesForEveryone
    PenniesForEveryone Posts: 294 Mover and Shaker
    You are severely handicapping yourself playing by unspoken rules that your competition clearly doesn't follow.  If MMR gives you the same 3-4 targets over and over then you just hit those 3-4 targets until they shield and/or you get new targets.
  • shartattack
    shartattack Posts: 370 Mover and Shaker
    spend those hp on shields, not health packs.  those hits won't crush you, and your packs will regen.
  • redviper85
    redviper85 Posts: 62 Match Maker
    You will NEVER hit 1200 without a champed Gambit or at least a champed relevant 5*. I was able to hit it with Gambit and Chavez but I still needed people to show me how. I don't know the specifics but after a certain score you are being seen by everyone in your MMR group. you screwed yourself by leveling up 2 underdeveloped 5*s so high. so once you get high enough everyone sees you and jumps on you.

    At your level i would get to around 600 or so( where ever you can safely float without getting pounced on by bigger teams). keep skipping until you find 3 beatable teams worth lots of points and make a dash for 800, shield up, then dash for 900 a few hours later. if you get hit once SHIELD!!! that was just the quickest of the bunch; there are at least 3 more incoming! if you don't shield you will continue to play the 1 step forward 3 steps back game until you are out of health packs.

    Also when I shield I look at the leader board, shut down the game, and quickly restart it. That forces the server to update your status as shielded. I've gotten late hits before by not doing this. I've heard that either action updates the server so i do them both to be extra safe. 
  • TetsujinOni
    TetsujinOni Posts: 181 Tile Toppler
    Redviper's fundamentally mistaken about the ability to achieve 1200 without a champed gambit or champed 5s, *particularly* in Shard 4, but some of the other mechanical observations are close.

    There are numerous posts outlining how to interact successfully with the existing PvP system, with some adjustments noted for the community atmosphere of different shards.

    Perhaps a review of those and consideration of how your assumptions prevented you from being able to get an outcome you thought worth the engagement would go farther, faster, than the complaint above?
  • vinsensual
    vinsensual Posts: 458 Mover and Shaker
    I don't know how it would affect game health, but I wish there was a way to de-level your rosters.  If you made the mistake of over-leveling a well covered, but not max covered, 5 star, you're stuck unless you just toss the character and all those covers you have little chance of acquiring again.  

    Overleveling 5s has got to be the most common mistake for newer players.  And recently so many contingencies have been set to keep them from harming themselves. Except something like this, which ruins their pvp almost indefinitely unless they take drastic measures.  


  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Match Maker
    evade420 said:
    so you are running 2 Under covered 5* that you have leveled up over lvl 400.
    2 problems with this.
    1 - your MMR has now gone up based on the levels of those 2 characters, and you will be more visible to bigger rosters are you are now very close to full 5* MMR
    2 - Using un-champed 5* (or any character ) in PVP makes you stick out like a sore thumb, and with your gambit only at 4 black, I could take down your whole team with a single champed gambit faster that you could take me down with under covered gambit/bolt/whoever.

    Until you get those 5*s covered and champed you are going to have climb quick and shield , once you are over 750-800 your shield hops are going to have to be quick and calculated, cuz everbody is going to see you and want to take you out
    do you know the in-and-outs of MMR factors?

    I honestly have a vague understanding that some levels influence it but I don't know the math.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Match Maker
    Calnexin said:
    "Gifted"?  How'd that happen, and how can I get in on it?
    I just got them from doing latest pulls.  Not gifted as in-exchange for nothing.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Match Maker
    PenniesForEveryone said:
    You are severely handicapping yourself playing by unspoken rules that your competition clearly doesn't follow.  If MMR gives you the same 3-4 targets over and over then you just hit those 3-4 targets until they shield and/or you get new targets.
    I get that but I don't believe it necessarily should be that way.  Point taken and was well aware prior, thanks for your insight just the same.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Match Maker
    OJSP said:
    What does being in SL7 have anything to do with seeing a more whales than SL9? In the bracket or in your nodes? How do you know if there are no more whales in SL8 or 9 and the ones you are seeing in SL7 are the smaller fish already?

    S4 is quite famous historically for being dominated by strong alliances. If you want to go on an excursion, don’t go there.

    If you’re still in your current alliance and with your current roster, you’d have better result having an excursion to S2. But, you won’t get far without hitting someone multiple times sometimes.

    Your alliance have some very good PvP players. It might be better having a chat with them and getting your facts right first before having this sort of discussion in the forum. Just like the conversations on etiquette and grilling, threads on sportsmanships also don’t tend to end well..
    This is really an agnostic debate because without concrete data from both SCL pools for the same slice, which I'm coming to understand contains players from other brackets, we cannot even know.

    My claim was made purely from empirical observation, since I typically play SCL8-9 in a slice around mid-day, usually slices 2 or 3.

    My experience recounted above is not the same as when playing in my usual slice/SCL ^^^.

    I disagree that people *need* to be hit repeatedly--I get you didn't say that verbatim--but that's clearly the implication.  I felt like an absolute tool hitting that same guy so many times yesterday and if they were unshielded--they didn't deserve it--especially if I have correctly understood that the opponent pool transcends the 1000-person ladder we join.  Hard to believe that out of potentially thousands of players that I would repeatedly see the same 3-6 targets--that makes no sense and that's dummy math to try to justify as being the correct expectation.

    Just because sportsmanship discussions don't end well doesn't mean we ought to turn a blind eye, I cannot overstate the fact that nobody has ever profited from tacit consent to wrong.

    Organized competition is born from the spirit of sport, so to treat these ill trends like they're okay even tho they are the de facto status quo doesn't mean that's the way it should be.  There are so many functional examples of organized sports pooling equal (or equal-like) competition into brackets, leagues exist for this and there is nothing to say we shouldn't expect the same here.  I mean SCLs kinda act like leagues but when you find people with 550 5*s in SCL7--a mid-tier "league" with the highest-possible competitor??  Something isn't working right.

    I'd rather clean house the hard way than live in filth just because it's easier than the road ahead to a better state of affairs.

    I don't really talk to my alliance about PvP because they are PvE outfit.  Makes sense doesn't it?

    I glean what I can about PvP from discussions on these boards but it's not like there is a comprehensive walkthrough about the ins-and-outs of all things PvP, about which I know.  So if I speak from ignorance and you took exception to it, you'll just have to forgive me or see your way out of the discussion.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Match Maker
    Stax the Foyer said:
    The PvP ecosystem isn't complicated, necessarily, but it is opaque.  You may not realize it at first, but two of your points are at sort of at odds with one another:

    1) I can only see 3-4 different people

    2) I don't like that higher rosters can target me  (paraphrasing both of these, if I mischaracterize it, or miss some nuance, it's unintentional)

    You get locked into an MMR loop of the same handful of targets when those are the only targets out there somewhat similar to your roster and worth decent points.  It's more likely to happen when you're at higher points relative to other targets, so you're one of the higher point among unshielded players having a sort-of similar roster type.

    The fix to (1), assuming you're not just at super high points relative to the shard as a whole, is to widen the amount of teams that you're able to target.  In practice, that means widening it at the top and at the bottom, because a lot of players might not see value in being offered very difficult teams (I'd personally like it, but I'm also kind of stupid).  If you do that to alleviate (1), it means that even more people can target you, making (2) worse.

    PvP has a flow to it.  It gets easier, as you understand what other people are doing, and you adapt that to your own playstyle.  Hopefully you'll be able to parse out some helpful information from these replies, and find some value there.




    how do I "widen" the amount of teams I'm able to target?  I am new to that notion but would appreciate any practical advice you have to go about accomplishing that.

    I'm not so much bothered by being targeted by "higher" rosters, but I only have 1 5* champ and gettin' wrecked by a lot of people with multiple 5* champs.  I know there are other players out there with rosters similar to mine--why they don't seem to hit me as much as people with more developed rosters eludes my understanding.
  • Justice Jacks
    Justice Jacks Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    Dapptastic said:
    At the top of this year, I was gifted 6x (5* Gambit) covers, putting me squarely at 12 covers.

    Having experienced how swiftly that guy can take control of a match, I decided to level him up and give him a whirl with a 10-cover lvl-405 BlackBolt (3-2-5), with lvl-435 Gambit at (3-5-4).  I run that because Gambit's effectively is critically dependent on his AP battery passives and Silent King buffs Gambit's AP battery; bear in mind if Silent King isn't running--it's really not that great a team since BlackBolt's passive damage is at an underwhelming level-2 and if there are no red, it's just a match-dmg contest, more-or-less.

    What does this have to do with PvP and-or sportsmanship?

    That little narrative is the condition that prompted me to try my hand at PvP more competitively.  Before, my only objective in any PvP was the 575-point 10CP reward, I stopped playing when the rewards became based on quantity of matches won--the reason being is that I think that promoted a platform of competition that fosters preying on other players with weaker rosters and the sportsman in me just doesn't agree with that.  I personally skip over matches, regardless of point value, if it looks like the other player has a considerably less-developed roster (subjective, I know--but we all have an idea of who is in our league or not).  I hate preying on weaker rosters because I hate losing points to whales or people with far more-developed rosters than mine, where essentially even if I tried to retaliate--it's borderline impossible because my opponent just outclasses me.

    I recently took interest in PvP after learning about the journey to 1200 that some other guy posted, it was a gratitude/narrative of how it works--a pretty articulate post that was lucid and outlined the process well.  So I learned more about the thresholds for shielding, shield-hopping, grill teams, etc..  I was just gleaning tactics and etiquette from other players and thought I could try it myself.

    I tried it with BlueShift and it was bar-none the most frustrating experience I have ever had in PvP because the degree of factors outside of my control overwhelm anything else in my control.

    I try to only attack players with VERY similar roster development or better.

    The so-called MMR just feels utterly broken.  I feel like we're really playing it fast and loose with the idea that 'matchmaking' has any degree of fairness, considering that in modern English, when "matchmaking" is the subject of discussion--it is well implied that matching is done on the basis of complementary qualities.  The methods of application of that concept in this game, well I don't know much about that but playing under the rules of that product--all I know is that it's broken.  My outlook is based on the fact that players with far-better developed rosters were just abusing my team.  I'd advance forward some 60+ points just to get hit for -175 points, then to make matters worse--the only way to recover any of that lost ground was to keep hitting the same guy--I felt awful, I can only hope he was shielded but matchmaking wasn't giving me any better alternatives.  It raised the question "how do so many different people keep finding me, if I can only find the same 3-4 guys when skipping?"  I try not to hit the same folks too many times--again because I hate it when people grind on me too much.  The only time I hit the same player more than twice is if it's a retaliation pissing contest and even then, only when the points I stand to win won't be severely offset by what they might gain if they hit me back--I don't play the loss-leader game.

    Clearly the concept of sportsmanship is alien to a lot of other players in this game, because if the glove was on the other hand--I wouldn't be attacking me, given the roster disparities, and I'm not trying to frame the argument that people shouldn't attack me because players are clearly operating within the bounds that demiurge has set for them...in the so-called "MMR" landscape.  But it does seem pretty unbalanced and broken.

    I find matchmaking to be a blunder of opportunities encouraging players to prey on others with clearly inferior rosters.

    The economics here results in monopolies and stratifying player demographics with extreme disparities.  Consider that if matchmaking was more appropriate--more players would probably play and on grounds where things feel equally opportunistic--I don't think players would bat an eye at investing in healthpacks, AP boosts, or what have you.

    I didn't count how many times I was attacked last night trying to get to 900, but I recall that for every match where I won, it seemed like I was losing 3-4--that ratio is awful.  In a 1000-player bracket, does that even make sense?  I don't know.

    It was my first excursion into slice 4 and I thought with my relatively underdeveloped roster that I should try SCL7--I found more whales there than I have found playing in SCL9--shameful!

    I will never try slice 4 again, or SCL7--it's sickening how the mechanics of PvP as they currently are seem to treat some players like feeder teams.  I lost some 900 points before I could even advance 200.  <--not cool, I mean if I get hit 5-10 times, they should remove me from the matchmaking pool for a time until they fix matchmaking.

    I don't have a weak roster but this week is godawful for my boosted characters.  I mean starlord with gambit, the colorsets are nearly identical.  I have 32/62 4*s champed.  No cyclops tho, the middle crop of 4*s are really underdeveloped for me because I took a 20-month break right after the 2-year anniversary.

    I am sure many might agree that the developers need to review and revise the matchmaking mechanics.

    Does anybody else think they're broken?

    I don't know how others play and I'm not here to impose my ethics on others but I wonder if any others approach PvP with the same sense of sportsmanship as I do.  I know statistically there should be but statistics don't always resonate with reality when outliers might be the case.

    My takeaway from the whole experience is this:

    - never going to buy healthpacks again if demiurge wants to keep feeding me to other players at a rate where I will constantly lose ground no matter how much I am able to advance; losing 100-200 points for every 50, occurring about 4-5 cycles.  I will not prop up a system designed to exploit my resources with no reasonable promise for a return on my investment.
    - matchmaking needs a COMPLETE overhaul; I will NOT recommend PvP or investing in-game resources to any player until something is done about this; revision needs to occur on a frequent basis
    - it is a very real thing in the world of application development to patch, demiurge patches this game often but this broken facet of their game really shouldn't be on a backburner, assuming it's even an objective at all

    I don't care if I lose out on progression rewards because clearly those rewards aren't meant for people like me who want to obtain them through fair play.  I would be okay with throwing 200HP at a 5-pack of healthpacks if only occasionally I was getting hit too much or just getting crushed by opponents in matches, provided I was making measurable progress.

    Last night--that was NOT my experience.  Given the choice to just feed others or lose out on personal, progression rewards--my mindset is that of a general--if I cannot win, I will deny my opponent any tactical or strategic advantage and if that means playing a zero-sum game--so be it.  I ain't nobody's patsy.

    Just thought I'd share my experience.  For anybody else who might be playing with eyes wide shut like I was before this last BlueShift event.

    #mindblown

    Concludes post with "I ain't nobody's patsy."  Spends prior dozen paragraphs proving the opposite.

    Enters event entitled "Player vs Player" but is disappointed because of hits by other players while refusing to hit available players to his roster.

    Can't figure out why better rosters can hit faster than own roster can hit same or better rosters. 

    But most importantly, joining SCL7 vs SCL9 does nothing with respect to your MMR and who can target you and who you can target.

    And yes, if you hit the same target repeatedly, they were not shielded (cause, you know, if they were, you wouldn't be able to cycle through them more than twice at most).  As OJSP stated, probably better to take this up with your alliance mates, because there is a lot of basic PVP information/principles you are just missing.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Match Maker
    Kjeldbjerg said:
    You are matched against everyone in your slice, not just the 1000 in your bracket. And Scl determines who you face for placement and the rewards, not who you are matched against.

    And seriously, this has nothing to do with sportsmanship. You decided to show up to a Formula one race on your bike. Of course you're gonna get left behind.

    Using your fantastic (playing it fast and loose there too) metaphor--shouldn't the F1 series be SCL9??

    Your statement that I--a "bike" user--shouldn't expect to be competitive is laughable.  Glad I know you're on the wrong side of reason now tho, so now I can just overlook your inputs in the future with the full confidence I won't be missing anything that matters.

    Thanks for playing, have a good day!

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