Gambit too strong? Buff lesser 5*s!

babinro

We have a problem here. 
5* Gambit is super strong but plenty of people have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to whale him.   As a result, nerfing a character so soon after release would cause a whole host of lasting problems for the future of this game. 

Nerfing a 5* character early is not even on the same level as nerfing a 4* or 3* early would have been.  As such, I think its probably unrealistic for D3 to take this drastic action.


What's the solution?  

Solve this problem the FUN way and get to BUFFING some 5*'s!   More importantly, lets try and solve this problem without creating other characters that are as oppressive as Gambit.   Giving Bruce Banner the ability to generate +3 green and +3 blue every turn won't fix the problem but just worsen it.


Black Suit Spider-Man:
- Blue:  Increase the length of stun.  2 or 3 turns depending on testing.
- Purple:  In addition to disabling strike tiles, Spider-Man also converts X charged tiles into non-charged Web Tiles at the start of turn.


5* Doctor Strange
- Buff his health to match that of Gambits. 
- Blue:  Reduce the AP cost (reduce blue damage per pulse to help balance this out if needed)
- Purple: Include CD tiles and GREATLY reduce the AP cost of this skill since 3 purple is the default built. Seriously this skill could probably cost 5 AP and be 'fine' given its speed.


Bruce Banner
- Black: Add a stun component.  Banner's big...he hits hard...black skills can stun...we can make this work.  The skill needs a buff.
- (Insert other banner buffs here since he's arguably the worst 5* in the game along side Doc Ock)


5* Doc Ock
- Blue: Tentacles passively disable charged tiles and reduce the cost of his Green.  

I have to pat myself on the back for this one because it fits the thematic lore of the character wonderfully.   Doc is all about building an unstable reactor that's destined to fail.  What better way to make something unstable then by dangerously charging it with charge tiles?    Great right?  Right.   

Also Doc Ock green is a useless skill that's beyond over costed.  So powering it up by giving this guy synergy with charged tile generators would be pretty cool.   Since you reduce the cost of Cunning Scheme and you aren't adding green AP it can't be abused too badly.


Conclusion:

I'm not we just do one of these things...I'm saying we do ALL of these things.   People are in favor of a better balanced 5* meta so lets give it to the people while also helping to solve the Gambit 'problem'.   Every season that sees a 5* buff can be accompanied by a 4* character that feeds those covers via champ rewards to boot.


Your thoughts?   Any better ideas for character buffs? 

PolarPopBear

I like the idea of buffing the older, and frankly basically barely used 5s.  As long as its not over the top you shouldn't have too much trouble with new bloods being upset that veterans are actually able to use their old toys.  Plus im one of "those" guys who busted one haord for Thanos/Panther and his next hoard on Gambit.  

The only other things i can think of off the top of my head is make Banner's hulk form matches generate AP, Thors does.  Buff Cap and IM 'team' abilities base power, and maybe reduce the scaling if you have their team, so you are less dependent on have a good pair/essential.

JHawkInc

I'd have to get some coffee and think a little to give a solid critique of the suggested changes, but I'm totally down for buffing some older 5*s in an effort to lessen the chaos of Gambit (for one, because it's kinda hard to change him without neutering him, you know?). Increasing the value of other characters is a great idea. I also like the idea of using charged tiles to "power" abilities by having abilities remove them from the board.

I would note for BSSM, connecting web tiles to his stun might work (make it like the 3*, stun length increases with web tiles).

And on a random tangent, I've always said 5* Hulk should have a yellow passive power that says he can see ghosts (if he could hit Invisible targets that'd be cool, but I'd be totally okay with it being a joke passive that doesn't do anything). Because Hulk can see/touch ghosts, and that superpower deserves more recognition. Plus, purple/black/blue Banner with green/red/yellow Hulk makes him an awesome rainbow character.

Jaedenkaal

I strongly suspect even if all of those characters were changed, Gambit would still be the best, still be abuse-able at 0/0/5, and would still need to be nerfed. 6 passive AP per turn is simply too uninteractive for MPQ.

babinro

Jaedenkaal said:

I strongly suspect even if all of those characters were changed, Gambit would still be the best, still be abuse-able at 0/0/5, and would still need to be nerfed. 6 passive AP per turn is simply too uninteractive for MPQ.

For the record I think you COULD nerf the 0/0/5 build without any concerns of upsetting the whales.   Making Gambit's black completely shut down allies red and purple while he's conscious is a nerf that has zero impact on championed gambit builds.

JHawkInc said:

I would note for BSSM, connecting web tiles to his stun might work (make it like the 3*, stun length increases with web tiles).

Excellent idea since my web tile suggestion lacks internal synergy.   I'm 100% on board with that.

LifeofAgony

This still doesn’t solve the issue of how broken gambit is.

Unconditional AP generation is game-breaking.

Do the old 5s need some tweaking?   Yes, absolutely.  But it has nothing to do with Gambit.

SnowcaTT

Simple: worst ability for all 5*'s has a passive added that make aps in their other two colors.

Problem solved, not broken at all.

Kolence

Spidey - blue stuns for 1 turn plus 1 more for every 2 charged tiles on the board (maximum 3 turns, maybe 4), then converts half the charged tiles to web tiles. Make green remove web tiles to hit harder or be cheaper per web tile.

Ock - his tentacle tile should really be fortified, they get matched away too easily. Alternatively, make blue cheap, like 5 AP even, so he can spam it more. And it would help, I think, if he had a way to stun himself, maybe when a fortified tentacle is matched. 

Gambit - Tie his black passive AP production to some board state, number of red/purple tiles or number of charged tiles. Whatever, something. And not a funny number like in Banner's case (or pre buff Cho's). Maybe 7+ tiles 1AP, 9+ tiles 2AP, 11+ tiles 3AP. It can even get an active component that adds red/purple charged tiles if people feel he'd be ruined with anything other than how he is now.

Strange, Banner I really have little experience and barely a few covers, but I still like fighting Strange squishy like he is, thank you very much.    But buff purple for sure. It is pretty slow. 

CHRISJN

Buffing other 5's is of no answer to overpowered GAMBIT.... this is not about the whales spending or the hoards everyone blown to get him. Just simply remove the passive ap generation to make it all balanced!!! How is this so hard to comprehend?

Sandmaker

This is probably old news for most people, but this last pve was the first time I've got to use my 5*'s with a red. For some reason it never dawned on me that his red generates AP from the charge tiles it hit.

People have been clamoring about how op his black is, but by the second cast his red becomes a 7 AP, decent hitting nuke that returns 6 AP back! That's an insane ability by itself, nevermind the fact you can cast it unconditionally every 2-3 turns due to his black. 

Starfury

So buff 19 characters to avoid balancing the one that's the problem?

How many of those are going to end up even more broken after you try to make them as OP as Gambit?

M3rGuEZ

Gambit is broken.
'nuff said.

jamesh

Maybe they could alter every other character in the game to have a passive that destroys 1 AP in the front enemy's two strongest colours.  That would solve the passive AP gain problem, and couldn't possibly have any negative side effects.

dr tinykittylove

Not reading the thread, just OP. 

Yes, all the other 5*s need a buff. 

No, Gambit should have been rebalanced day one when his abilities were posted. 

Calnexin

I'm for buffing 5*'s.  As a have-not (yet), I still run up against the 5* meta on the higher end of my climb, and I'd like to see more than Panthos, Hawkson, and Gambit(plus one) to challenge.

Sm0keyJ0e

SnowcaTT said:

Simple: worst ability for all 5*'s has a passive added that make aps in their other two colors.

Problem solved, not broken at all.

While this seems like a joke, this is EXACTLY what the devs decided when they released Gambit.

I mean seriously, the worst 5* is arguably Banner, and if someone suggested a "fix" to him would be to allow +3 blue and +3 green every turn, that poster would be laughed off the boards.

Yet here we are...

BoyWonder1914

Reading all the thoughts on this subject, and also remembering the vitriol that this forum erupted with when OML was nerfed, it I think it's clear that you can't nerf the guy without at least some portion of the player base feeling ****. Whether you spent money, or blew a hoard earned through hard work, nerfing a 5-star character is like a punch to the gut when they represent the highest level of the game. I certainly support the solution of buffing older character to balance the meta. 

sinnerjfl

You cant really balance a character that generates free AP... nerf him already.

People who spent money to get him knew full well he was overpowered then, too bad but come on, you couldnt be oblivious to how strong he was day 1 when we saw the full abilities.

D3/DU screwed up with Gambit's design, fix it before it gets even worse because this looks really really bad already. You can't throw out the whole balance of a game for 1 character.

White_Deth

Gow about just bronging his red in line with his 3 star version? I mean 10k for ea h charged tile destroyed is ridiculous on its own, even more so when he generates his own powers?!?! 3 stars red is good for gaining ap for your other chatavters with his red but its weak on its own dmg wise. Hes a little more balanced but a passive ap generator is stupid. Putting him in a team should block everyones red and purple even when downed otherwise you get rid of him only to be greeted by more powers from his filled pool. 

Cactus_Jack_87

These are good ideas, but I couldn't help but think of Mac and Charlie's gun vs. swords argument while reading this. Buff the old 5*s all they want, Gambit will still destroy them, no matter what. The only counter to Gambit is your own Gambit. Good thing I have the Cajun champed!

https://youtu.be/muRuy31JYwU?t=35s

CharlieCroker

sinnerjfl said:

You cant really balance a character that generates free AP... nerf him already.

People who spent money to get him knew full well he was overpowered then, too bad but come on, you couldnt be oblivious to how strong he was day 1 when we saw the full abilities.

D3/DU screwed up with Gambit's design, fix it before it gets even worse because this looks really really bad already. You can't throw out the whole balance of a game for 1 character.

You say that, but the most "liked" early responses to my poll were it's too soon and wait for his boost to be removed before making a judgement.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/68373/should-5-gambit-be-nerfed#latest

I can read and understand specs and remain 100% in the nerf Gambit party, but can see the developers have (deliberately?) dug themselves a deep hole here and I don't think there's a possible resolution that will placate everyone.  But at the same time inaction (or at least publicly commenting on the situation) is worse than whatever path they may or may not eventually choose to take.