Baral is too good but Omniscience is not?

bk1234

Gunmix25 said:

bken1234 said:

Mainloop25 said:

Speaking of rare yet frustrating, a well-constructed Baral/imminent Doom deck will kill you within a turn or two. It was a card that was mostly overlooked when it went on sale, even by myself, who debated on whether or not to buy it. I ended up not buying it, but now seeing the kind of combos you can pull off with it... You will feel exactly the same way as you did when you first got destroyed by Baral 1.0.

My Imminent Doom deck has Baral and Locust God. I hear it’s depressing to play against. It was one of the three cards I bought from the set (I don’t allow myself more than 3) (Note I have Omniscience and this is one of the decks it does not work well in) 
https://imgur.com/gallery/YWfov

Nicely done.  Kudos

Thanks!!

blacklotus

Mainloop25 said:

Speaking of rare yet frustrating, a well-constructed Baral/imminent Doom deck will kill you within a turn or two. It was a card that was mostly overlooked when it went on sale, even by myself, who debated on whether or not to buy it. I ended up not buying it, but now seeing the kind of combos you can pull off with it... You will feel exactly the same way as you did when you first got destroyed by Baral 1.0.

my guess is it is a combo of days undoing, baral, ID and lots of cheap 6 mana or less spells. devils playground comes to mind...

Tilwin90

Imminent Doom is indeed very powerful! It is my go to mythic when I plan to make a creatureless deck. Right now I have only succeeded to break it using Saheeli (that is, UR decks), but that's probably only because Samut is so limited in the number of spells it supports. I am sure with more spells at a planeswalker's disposal, RG can be just as dangerous.
The thing here is that ID is played very poorly by the AI - I faced it many many times but since the AI is not "patient" when playing it to pair it up with a couple of cards to get it rolling, it's very unlikely it will "get things rolling". You need to get a very smart AI match where the AI drops for instance Swarm, Imminent Doom AND casts a spell the same turn, or you get super unlucky and you can't destroy it via a simple red match (kind of how it happens with Hixus occasionally).
I would put it at the same power level as Hixus - about which I haven't heard people complain lately that much.

Omniscience on the other hand triggers instantly without requiring anything else - just put 3-4 card draw spells in your deck, whir of invention, keep omni as your only support, and you're in BIG BIG trouble if the AI plays with this. Finish up with a singular Gaea's Revenge or some other nasty creature that can kill you immediately or has hexproof and is big enough.

Nalthazar

I strongly disagree that Omniscience needs a nerf or to be banned. The card is assuredly powerful, but I don't feel like it is overpowered enough to merit ban treatment. In the "standard" format, cycling decks are better than any Omniscience deck you can make for winning games. You are welcome to disagree with me, but if you do, you are wrong. Yes, I know that cycling decks aren't going to win the game with the AI playing the deck since the AI won't actually cycle anything, while Omniscience can work even with the AI playing the deck, but that doesn't mean that if you are playing the Omniscience deck that you will have a higher chance of winning over using a cycling deck. The combination of New Perspectives and Drake Haven/Faith of the Devoted with cards like Curator of Mysteries and Alhammarret's Archive more consistently and easily break the game. Heck, you don't even need the Curator or Archive to summon Drakes that have over 100 power or to cycle your way to dealing 100+ damage and gaining 100+ life, which is an approximate benchmark for a player's Planeswalker health. Factor in events like taking down the PVE bosses like Bolas, and there isn't a good reason to use non-cycling decks, unless you are just bored of the cycling mechanic and your being more actively engaged is worth more to you than having a higher probability to get a perfect score (I am one of these people who has shifted from making decks that rely on cycling to using more decks that use non-cycling cards). Additionally, while Omniscience will get you 3-4 free casts (it is bugged), cards like Rishkar's Expertise, which is also in "standard", can on it's own cast more for you for less mana. In "legacy" you can really break Omniscience, but if you're playing in a "legacy" format, you have to be ready to encounter some really broken decks. Pretty much any time I see that I have a G/U opponent I know that I am either in for an easy win against a cycling deck, or I have to strap my boots on and make sure that I win before they combo off with massive gem conversion card chains. When I encounter Nahiri, I prepare to run into a Hazoret's Undying Fury + Deploy the Gatewatch deck.  

You could make the argument that there are a number of cards that need to be nerfed like Deploy the Gatewatch, Omniscience, Hazoret's Undying Fury, Starfield of Nyx, New Perspectives, Drake Haven, Baral, Rashmi, etc., but at that point the discussion becomes more about what the power level in this game should be. That discussion is a more tricky discussion. If the new developers determine that they need to go on a nerf rampage and take down a lot of the game's most prominent and powerful cards, there will be a number of players who spent a lot of time and/or money to get those cards who will be upset. With how booster crafting is going to work, there are going to be a lot more players who will be able to construct the infinite chain decks and throw them into formats like Training Grounds or the other "legacy" eligible events. At the very least, there aren't any "legacy" events that have rewards that are really worth playing for at this time. If they made it so that events like Hour of Devastation were "legacy" eligible, then I might be on the side for additional discussion about balancing, but as it stands, if someone wants to make some absurd deck and throw it in Training Grounds for shenanigans, then let them make their broken deck and have their giggles. This is a game, and lets face it, if you back out of a Training Grounds match, it won't mean anything. Since Masterpiece cards can't be constructed from them, you will not have to worry about Omniscience being one of the cards that everyone will have easy access to, but the rest could make for some very nasty decks. Think of all of the Hazoret's + Deploy the Gatewatch decks with Olivia and/or Piggy you might run into. It will shift how you will need to build your decks. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that we have been spoiled by our win rates playing this game. The AI doesn't exactly do the best job in playing people's decks. I think it could be refreshing for there to be a bit more of a challenge in the game. Just take a look at how many perfect scores there are in each of the PVP events. Granted, I think that some of that is due to cycling, which I am guessing our new devs will take a look at, but I am on board with there being ways to construct decks that will be more challenging for my opponents to face. I love it when I get a friendly "I hate you" in coalition chat because one of my friends has encountered one of my evil decks that I have put into an event to give people a hard time.  

PS: I still love you Abbot. Don't kick me please. I just disagree :P.

@james park notice me Kohai

@thesee please make sure that @james park sees this

@james park you're it again

Mainloop25

If Omniscience doesn't need a nerf, then it needs more ways for your opponent to counteract it. Omniscience is as good as the cards you put next to it. More counters to those cards means you can balance Omniscience by virtue of balancing the cards around it. 

UweTellkampf

I agree with Mainloop here. I actually lost to his omniscience deck just couple of days ago, and there was really nothing I could do about it once the free casts started. That was my second loss against decks with this card because of this card in a very short period of time. And I don't mind that really. It's good to lose from time to time to keep the suspense.

I do mind the possible combinations which make the card as strong as it is in the first place, like Nyx or Whir of Inventions. There is not much one can do about those too, Nyx at 20 mana it is already as expensive as it should probably be, Whir does what it should do. A comparison with deploy that gives you 3 creatures for 23 mana against Omniscience that gives you much more, and, when combined with Whir much much more, shows that something is off. Making Omniscience more expensive would just delay the problem for a round or two. And since it is a MP the cost actually might be alright, even when compared to Deploy. I am running support destroy spells in many decks, but for this - once it gets running - you need it kind of immediately, and that is of course not always the case. Against Mainloop's deck I actually did destroy it once, but it came back next round (dont remember how). With black/blue you are probably screwed anyway.

One thing that could be done, is maybe lower its shields to three and see how that goes. It would be still powerful but in the hands of the AI a bit less ovewhelming. 

Mainloop25

@UweTellkampf was it the Starfield version of the deck? I have two different versions

UweTellkampf

Yes, @Mainloop25

hawkyh1

UweTellkampf said:

One thing that could be done, is maybe lower its shields to three and see how that goes. It would be still powerful but in the hands of the AI a bit less ovewhelming. 

I believe this could be a solution.

if mastering cards is an indicator of your potency, then
mythics rank the same as masterpieces. this is my
reasoning for why masterpieces can be at the same
level of power as similar mythics.
having masterpieces could add flexibility and maybe a
different way of getting the same effect. it does not have
to be more powerful versus a mythic.

HH

Kinesia

One thing different here is the lack of interrupts...
The closest we have to interrupts are really _supports_ that sit there and stop something like "Insidious Will".
Blue's implementation of "Countering" isn't realistic but even with other colours, there should be ways for me to get rid of their Omniscience in either green or red or white before they can cast a spell with it!

We are lacking in options more than anything else...

After "Deploy" Black should be able to kill the hasted Piglivia _before_ the attack still...

We can't have interrupts in the real sense of things we decide to play, but we _should_ have more options like "Insidious will" in different colours that will react to events and mess them up.

Mainloop25

I 100% agree @Kinesia

wereotter

Kinesia said:

One thing different here is the lack of interrupts...
The closest we have to interrupts are really _supports_ that sit there and stop something like "Insidious Will".
Blue's implementation of "Countering" isn't realistic but even with other colours, there should be ways for me to get rid of their Omniscience in either green or red or white before they can cast a spell with it!

We are lacking in options more than anything else...

After "Deploy" Black should be able to kill the hasted Piglivia _before_ the attack still...

We can't have interrupts in the real sense of things we decide to play, but we _should_ have more options like "Insidious will" in different colours that will react to events and mess them up.

I would disagree, slightly. While it's hard to implement actual counter spells, cards based off counters could instead be adapted to force your opponent to discard the appropriate card. 

Cancel would discard the top card no matter what.

Negate could do the top spell or support, Essence Scatter for creature cards, Dispel for spells, Ceremonious Rejection for supports...

I know discard sounds black, but its the most accurate way of implementing cards that stop a spell from ever going off. Then you can leave black discard to bottom cards in hand and random cards in hand. 

Also Disposses is a thing, it's just unfortunate you don't know that you needed to run that card until it's too late. Would be nice if some sort of side board option existed, but not sure how that could be fairly implemented. 

khurram

Not an argument in favor of Omniscience but I don't think many people know this. Overwhelming splendor hinders the loop by increasing the cost of cards even when Omni is on board. In legacy quarantine field does the same.

Same goes with any other cards that increase cost of cards in hand, like emrakul.

Thésée

Nalthazar said:

I strongly disagree that Omniscience needs a nerf or to be banned. The card is assuredly powerful, but I don't feel like it is overpowered enough to merit ban treatment. In the "standard" format, cycling decks are better than any Omniscience deck you can make for winning games. You are welcome to disagree with me, but if you do, you are wrong. Yes, I know that cycling decks aren't going to win the game with the AI playing the deck since the AI won't actually cycle anything, while Omniscience can work even with the AI playing the deck, but that doesn't mean that if you are playing the Omniscience deck that you will have a higher chance of winning over using a cycling deck. The combination of New Perspectives and Drake Haven/Faith of the Devoted with cards like Curator of Mysteries and Alhammarret's Archive more consistently and easily break the game. Heck, you don't even need the Curator or Archive to summon Drakes that have over 100 power or to cycle your way to dealing 100+ damage and gaining 100+ life, which is an approximate benchmark for a player's Planeswalker health. Factor in events like taking down the PVE bosses like Bolas, and there isn't a good reason to use non-cycling decks, unless you are just bored of the cycling mechanic and your being more actively engaged is worth more to you than having a higher probability to get a perfect score (I am one of these people who has shifted from making decks that rely on cycling to using more decks that use non-cycling cards). Additionally, while Omniscience will get you 3-4 free casts (it is bugged), cards like Rishkar's Expertise, which is also in "standard", can on it's own cast more for you for less mana. In "legacy" you can really break Omniscience, but if you're playing in a "legacy" format, you have to be ready to encounter some really broken decks. Pretty much any time I see that I have a G/U opponent I know that I am either in for an easy win against a cycling deck, or I have to strap my boots on and make sure that I win before they combo off with massive gem conversion card chains. When I encounter Nahiri, I prepare to run into a Hazoret's Undying Fury + Deploy the Gatewatch deck.  

You could make the argument that there are a number of cards that need to be nerfed like Deploy the Gatewatch, Omniscience, Hazoret's Undying Fury, Starfield of Nyx, New Perspectives, Drake Haven, Baral, Rashmi, etc., but at that point the discussion becomes more about what the power level in this game should be. That discussion is a more tricky discussion. If the new developers determine that they need to go on a nerf rampage and take down a lot of the game's most prominent and powerful cards, there will be a number of players who spent a lot of time and/or money to get those cards who will be upset. With how booster crafting is going to work, there are going to be a lot more players who will be able to construct the infinite chain decks and throw them into formats like Training Grounds or the other "legacy" eligible events. At the very least, there aren't any "legacy" events that have rewards that are really worth playing for at this time. If they made it so that events like Hour of Devastation were "legacy" eligible, then I might be on the side for additional discussion about balancing, but as it stands, if someone wants to make some absurd deck and throw it in Training Grounds for shenanigans, then let them make their broken deck and have their giggles. This is a game, and lets face it, if you back out of a Training Grounds match, it won't mean anything. Since Masterpiece cards can't be constructed from them, you will not have to worry about Omniscience being one of the cards that everyone will have easy access to, but the rest could make for some very nasty decks. Think of all of the Hazoret's + Deploy the Gatewatch decks with Olivia and/or Piggy you might run into. It will shift how you will need to build your decks. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that we have been spoiled by our win rates playing this game. The AI doesn't exactly do the best job in playing people's decks. I think it could be refreshing for there to be a bit more of a challenge in the game. Just take a look at how many perfect scores there are in each of the PVP events. Granted, I think that some of that is due to cycling, which I am guessing our new devs will take a look at, but I am on board with there being ways to construct decks that will be more challenging for my opponents to face. I love it when I get a friendly "I hate you" in coalition chat because one of my friends has encountered one of my evil decks that I have put into an event to give people a hard time.  

PS: I still love you Abbot. Don't kick me please. I just disagree :P.

@james park notice me Kohai

@thesee please make sure that @james park sees this

@james park you're it again

I agree with most of your analysis

- Cycling is more powerful than Ominiscience, gives you victories easier

- there are lots of other broken cards in the game

- Legacy is where brokenness lurks in the shadows

Where I disagree :

- Legacy is not only Training Grounds, lots of us plays Trial of the Planes daily. There are other events, me I love Nodes of Power and play it weekly. It is important that it does not degenerate (too much)

- Standard is a concern too. Most of Omniscience's best party friends like Nyx and Whirl of Invention are Standard

- You cannot of course make an overhaul of all the game and nerf the 20 most powerful cards. It is too complicated and it will not happen. But that's not a reason not to start by nerfing Omniscience a bit

- Yes we are spoiled kids who have an insane win rate (and certainly too high). I think the solution would be to reduce the power of cycling (yes yes I know, another request for nerfing... :-) not to throw overpowered cards in the field.

PS1 : don't forget the fancy and elegant "é" in "Thésée" to tag me :-)

PS2 : @jimpark you need to see this !

andrewvanmarle

Thésée said:

Where I disagree :

- Yes we are spoiled kids who have an insane win rate (and certainly too high). I think the solution would be to reduce the power of cycling (yes yes I know, another request for nerfing... :-) not to throw overpowered cards in the field.

Since the problem lies with the AI not being able to play certain decks (like cycling) or against certain decks (like creatureless, i look at you Bolas) It stands to reason that the AI needs a tweak: the ai should atleast try to refresh it;s hand when cards are useless, and have some basic strategy to deal with certain comboes in it's'own deck and with opponent decks. The imbalance is not in the cards but between us and the ai

p2dr

pls no nerf my precious omni
i cruise every colortrial now because of it xD 

Mainloop25

p2dr said:

pls no nerf my precious omni
i cruise every colortrial now because of it xD 

So do I. Doesn't mean it's healthy for the game. The way that Totp was conceived, it was meant to be a challenge, not just something you cruise through. 

Thésée

Mainloop25 said:

p2dr said:

pls no nerf my precious omni
i cruise every colortrial now because of it xD 

So do I. Doesn't mean it's healthy for the game. The way that Totp was conceived, it was meant to be a challenge, not just something you cruise through. 

We cruise through it when we don't run into your Saheeli deck @Mainloop25 :-) 

Mainloop25

Ha! Wait. Have I become the new KillMerWindCide??? 

UweTellkampf

I celebrated with champagne alone in a hotel room beating @Mainloop25 Saheeli. #neverforget 12/6