Baral is too good but Omniscience is not?

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  • blacklotus
    blacklotus Posts: 589 Critical Contributor
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    Thésée said:
    blacklotus said:
    Disclosure: I got a virgin Omniscience that haven't been used in any decks or events yet. :)


    Lol :-) That explains everything !

    I think it is not only a question of the card being really powerful in the hands of the AI (when he is able to cast it, I agree), but a question of game balance in general. Maybe if the AI loses 99% of the time it's because there are cards (or mechanisms, like cycling) that are too powerfull for the players' side.

    And of course, I might reconsider this opinion the day I'll pick Omni :-)

    my omniscience is sitting on the bench unused because i have better complementary cards to use in my decks.

    if omniscience is nerfed, it is actually better for me as it removes potential one-shot kill decks as my ai opponents (omniscience > deploy > pigs/olivias/desotwins.

    And it removes a powerful card from my human competitors from their decks for events.

    hmm...on second thoughts...Octagon, Please NERF Omniscience till it is on par with the current Torrential Gearhulk. Thanks. :)
  • blacklotus
    blacklotus Posts: 589 Critical Contributor
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    on that note, I am going to start a "Please Nerf Bolas" Poll, before he becomes available and start beating human players for a game or 2. 
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,935 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Torrential Gearhulk was pre-nerfed for the potential of never-ending Deploy loops though. ...I think?
  • blacklotus
    blacklotus Posts: 589 Critical Contributor
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    Mainloop25 said:
    Torrential Gearhulk was pre-nerfed for the potential of never-ending Deploy loops though. ...I think?
    yes it is. it was so wonderfully balanced that as my first mythic kaladesh card pulled in my first kaladesh premium pack, it is still sitting un-used today. and probably will in the near future too. :wink:
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,935 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I don't have it, but I wonder if there is some viability in an Omni/Whir loop deck. Sort of ironic if there is.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I think this issue goes back to the infinite cycling thread from a while ago (and here at some point).

    If the AI cannot effectively use a card, should it be nerfed?  Baral needed to go because the AI could start the infinity with him easily, and same with Gonti (and the Electrostatic Pummeler, remember).

    Cycling can never be used by the AI, and Omniscience only works under very specific and rare circumstances (I've already faced a few and never lost to one).  Is it really worth the nerf?  I'd say yes (to all of them), but it may not be a top priority right now
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Look, the AI should be able to use everything a _little_ bit. Like it should be able to cycle, but not more than 1 or 2 cards. It should cycle things it can't see a use for (the actual _normal_ reason for cycling!)

    Infinite loops need to be stopped if possible. In some way. Like with omniscience you could add "This cannot be reinforced or played if in play" which would stop Whir of invention boosting it back up.

  • Szamsziel
    Szamsziel Posts: 463 Mover and Shaker
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    Actually deploy is better with huf. You can ensure 4 deploys at once with right build.

    If nerf is really needed I'd recommend to modify omninescence to reduce cost to 1 or switch it to reduce cost only for supports and creatures. 
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Kinesia said:
    Look, the AI should be able to use everything a _little_ bit. Like it should be able to cycle, but not more than 1 or 2 cards. It should cycle things it can't see a use for (the actual _normal_ reason for cycling!)
    Pfft. Clearly, the _normal_ reason for cycling is to find your Gaea's Revenges and Rishkar's Expertises!!
  • IM_CARLOS
    IM_CARLOS Posts: 640 Critical Contributor
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    babar3355 said:
    Some of my guildmates went perfect in HoD with Omniscience decks except for Samut.  Anyone who says the card isn't amazing in competitive play is perhaps not utilizing it properly.  The card is super broken rather you use it as a loop engine a deploy spam engine or simply an amazing complement to virtually any high mana curve deck.
    I went perfect without Omniscience.
    I don't think it should be nerved because Greg could not pilot the machine properly, but baral din't need a pilot. 
    And Omni is a masterpiece, not a real common problem. Masterpiece should be something special, even if they are broken. Ornithopter for instance, is far away from broken and should be a rare or below.

    But maybe I change my mind if Omni is more common in this Game.
  • Gilesclone
    Gilesclone Posts: 735 Critical Contributor
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    Rarity does not balance a broken card.  Masterpieces should be fun/interesting not broken 
  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
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    luckyvulpi said:
    Yeah guys.  How DARE you complain about cards being broken when there was ANOTHER unrelated broken card that got nerfed.  There couldn't possibly be TWO broken cards out there.  I think all of you are just being selfish considering that ONE card was already nerfed. Isn't that enough for you?  Can't you just appreciate that ONE card was nerfed and never complain about any other cards in the future forever?

    Take a hint from paper magic, yugioh or any other competitive card game out there.  OBVIUSLY black locus/pot of greed needed to be banned, but CLEARLY no other card ever needed to be banned and there DEFINATLY isnt a huge ban list with like 50 cards so stop whining about any other cards ever.

    I've lost more times to my phone dying than any loops, so clearly its not an issue.

    //sarcasm
    Exactly.  It is not a function of who lost to what loop or what other cards are also broken.  Balance is required for a good game and there are lots of unbalanced cards.  Omniscience is just at the very top of the list.  And I didn't have a chance against the deck any more than playing against Baral 1.0.  He played omniscience and I died that same turn..

    I can't remember which walker @gunmix25 but unless I am experimenting I usually play Nahiri M/Th Kiora T/F and Sorin on W.  I think I was running Kiora that day.  (Guess I could have cast iWill... so yeah, totally balanced.. my bad.)
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,434 Chairperson of the Boards
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    babar3355 said:

    I can't remember which walker @gunmix25 but unless I am experimenting I usually play Nahiri M/Th Kiora T/F and Sorin on W.  I think I was running Kiora that day.  (Guess I could have cast iWill... so yeah, totally balanced.. my bad.)
    @babar3355 Just curious, because one round of 4 AotSS could only kill off a limited number of PW in one turn. Regardless though, what you experienced is still very OP because that could have happened again the next turn so to speak.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,935 Chairperson of the Boards
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    IM_CARLOS said
    But maybe I change my mind if Omni is more common in this Game.

    And here is the problem. Eventually enough people will have the card and the complaints will just get louder. Why not address the problem now while it's still pretty rare? They have an opportunity to do the right thing before it gets worse. 
  • morgue427
    morgue427 Posts: 783 Critical Contributor
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    wow i could scrape the sarcasm off that post and smear it on several other topics just to even it out a bit lol. i personally haven't had it happen to me much not even as much as when baral came out, not saying it doesn't happen just hasnt to me.
    So perhaps the problem isnt a huge as people suggest? not a lot of them out there, but if everytime you see it played it causes a loops and loss then it should be adjusted at least a bit
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,935 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Speaking of rare yet frustrating, a well-constructed Baral/imminent Doom deck will kill you within a turn or two. It was a card that was mostly overlooked when it went on sale, even by myself, who debated on whether or not to buy it. I ended up not buying it, but now seeing the kind of combos you can pull off with it... You will feel exactly the same way as you did when you first got destroyed by Baral 1.0.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Mainloop25 said:
    Speaking of rare yet frustrating, a well-constructed Baral/imminent Doom deck will kill you within a turn or two. It was a card that was mostly overlooked when it went on sale, even by myself, who debated on whether or not to buy it. I ended up not buying it, but now seeing the kind of combos you can pull off with it... You will feel exactly the same way as you did when you first got destroyed by Baral 1.0.
    My Imminent Doom deck has Baral and Locust God. I hear it’s depressing to play against. It was one of the three cards I bought from the set (I don’t allow myself more than 3) (Note I have Omniscience and this is one of the decks it does not work well in) 
    https://imgur.com/gallery/YWfov



  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,935 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Yeah that looks rough. Day's Undoing really does a number on you. 
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,434 Chairperson of the Boards
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    bken1234 said:
    Mainloop25 said:
    Speaking of rare yet frustrating, a well-constructed Baral/imminent Doom deck will kill you within a turn or two. It was a card that was mostly overlooked when it went on sale, even by myself, who debated on whether or not to buy it. I ended up not buying it, but now seeing the kind of combos you can pull off with it... You will feel exactly the same way as you did when you first got destroyed by Baral 1.0.
    My Imminent Doom deck has Baral and Locust God. I hear it’s depressing to play against. It was one of the three cards I bought from the set (I don’t allow myself more than 3) (Note I have Omniscience and this is one of the decks it does not work well in) 
    https://imgur.com/gallery/YWfov



    Nicely done.  Kudos

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